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More bad news for Scientology

Discussion in 'Europe' started by Churchill, Mar 30, 2014.

  1. Innominate Dude

    Innominate Dude No Longer Around

    Saying I think her election is "inconsequential" is putting words in my mouth. The point of putting words in my mouth seems to be to argue against some weak and stupid position rather than any position I forwarded.

    My original post stated I thought it excessive to think "au revoir, Dave" fitting, basically because there are too many unknowns. For instance, France is not currently considered outside of the family of nations living in the rule of law with a constitution that affords some version of human rights. It is a signatory to the European Human Rights Convention. Proceeding in violation of that international law, if Hidalgo is sloppy enough and more driven by passion than reason, will not be immunized by the might and majesty of a municipal mayorship.

    I then pointed out that I generally consider politicians misguided in their efforts to oppose small and obnoxious religious groups because they fall into the trap of sloppy thinking more in line with fiery rhetoric than practicalities. That isn't the same as "inconsequential", the word you seek to put in my mouth.

    We might consider this politician's recent elevation in office and compare it to another European political actor and her "bully pulpit". Ursula Camberta had what one might consider an ideal bully pulpit, possessing a special governmental remit to mount opposition to Scientology in the Hamburg area as a "human rights" official. She did accomplish award of a significant honor to Robert Minton for his efforts, but the award granted Mr. Minton was a tarnished one also granted to discredited "scientist" and hate monger Margaret Singer, leading one to conclude Minton was being honored not for any principled and well thought out position but for ability to spew biased rhetoric aimed at injuring small religious minorities, just as Singer was infamous for spewing out under the guise to popularizing her discredited "scientific" views.

    Even worse, while applauding Mr. Minton with that award it could be, and was, pointed out that within Germany political propaganda materials that Camberta chose to overlook or ignore while falling all over herself to honor Minton were precisely in line with US Government charges of religious discrimination. US government charges of discrimination in Germany were well supported, for example, in an anti-cult flyer distributed to German schoolchildren, no doubt drawn up by shallow thinking but politically empowered people making use of their bully pulpit, open portrayed "cult" members as insects to be killed by poisonous gas or fly swatters. It is rather funny that an ideally empowerd bully pulpit holder and explicit "human rights" official like Camberta can go to such lengths to applaud foreign Scientology opponents while ignoring propaganda distributed to schoolchildren in her own country that:

    1. Informs children that "cult" members are insects, not human beings at all, and
    2. Tells them that we way to respond to these pesky nonhumans is to kill them.

    You'd think a "human rights" official in Germany would understand there is a problem with telling German schoolchildren that a certain disfavored minority class in their society are less than human and to solve it is as simple as killing them. Camberta was too busy trying to heap on honors to a man too stupid to realize that forming a FOR PROFIT organization to oppose Scientology is a footbullet maneuver.

    In the end, the church is famous for its footbullets, often the product of this OSA you mention. The OSA is approaching "legend in its own mind" status for its effectiveness. One ought to sometimes step back from cheering everything which merely seems to be a favorable to one's own side, rooting for a person who is preaching to the choir one happens to be in, and dispassionately assess the people in a fight. Hidalgo's fresh "bully pulpit" could achieve footbullet results akin to OSA footbullet results if she thinks Camberta is an example of a good anti-Scientology political operator. She was good in the biased estimate of her own fan base, anti-Scientologists, but the more dispassionate observer can understand she largely evidenced great passion against Scientology, but not necessarily evidence of genuine concern for human rights in light of the flyer pointed out by the US government that teaches German schoolchildren that cult members are less than human and to be exterminated, which she blithely ignored.

    It is useful and necessary to dispassionately assess things, sometimes. That's my point.
  2. secretiveoldfag

    secretiveoldfag Silver Meritorious Patron


    You lost me about para.2.

    PS I find your phrase 'this OSA you mention' very odd. You know all this but never heard of OSA? I find this incredible.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  3. Innominate Dude

    Innominate Dude No Longer Around

    I read the internet extensively. You can find a copy of the the European Human Rights Convention on the internet, for instance, which is extremely worthwhile reading. Much more worthwhile than reading hooray-for-our-side texts that seem to assume every intelligent person in the world necessarily shares the biases or prejudices of "our side".

    My assessment of Hidalgo is simply that she's in a position to either harm or help opposition to Scientology, it isn't wise to presume which automatically, or might have her efforts greatly diluted by more demands on her time in her elevation to higher office.

    If she turns out to be more in the stripe of Ursula Camberta, discussed in another post in this thread, she actually could be more of a long term liability than anything else. Camberta was an excellent example of a political official whose great passion was without genuine regard for real human rights thoughtfulness, and thus good evidence of why an external body like the US government needed to exert its influence to check such unfortunately overly empowered people. She was in a small way like the much more dramatic impact of political actors who achieved statutes outlawing Scientology in Australia. That act of stupidity empowered Scientology in Australia in the long run, solidifying its support as a persecuted group. It was not this ill considered legislation, which some opponents of Scientology at the time might foolishly have thought was a great step in their favor, but rather the internet which ultimately put Scientology in Australia into such an unfavorable position as they enjoy today.

    If Hidalgo can demonstrate that she knows it is the acts of the church which would be wrongful if done by anyone, not focusing on peculiarities of a special set of people, and can show she is more influenced by reason and genuine regard for human rights than by any passion-based spewing of ill will towards a small religious group, she can be beneficial. If she is like the politician idiot examples of Ursula Camberta or those dim witted Australian legislators from decades past, her long term impact will be counterproductive and the double edged sword nature of opposition to Scientology can once again allow them to exploit that kind of idiocy, in the long term.

    In the final analysis, it has been the internet that really matters in reducing the power of the church and inhibiting the recruitment of fresh victims. It is the internet, not some self-congratulating politician, that is responsible for DM admitting that severe misconduct by church agents needs correction, for instance. Hidalgo can't act stupidly enough to wipe out the internet's effectiveness, can't really hope to be more effectual than it whether in this or even higher political offices even under her best performance, and ultimately only time will tell whether she's a curse or a blessing.
  4. Rene Descartes

    Rene Descartes Gold Meritorious Patron

    For some reason this thread makes me think of...


    Bell Ringer!

    Notre Dame!


    Charles Laughton!

    Okay everybody. Move along. Nothing to see here.

  5. Anonycat

    Anonycat Crusader

    That's a phrase you don't often see here.
  6. Innominate Dude

    Innominate Dude No Longer Around

    Indeed, a mere

    "1,130 results"

    are returned by Google should you imput the following into your Google search field:

    site: "enemy of the church"

    So a mere thousandfold hits is, it seems, possible to think of as infrequent given that Google returns often number in hundreds of thousands or millions for some phrases. On the other hand, if you are thinking in terms of a site restricted search, not the whole net, perhaps some could consider a thousand hits leans more towards "frequent". It's debatable.

  7. Anonycat

    Anonycat Crusader

    Learn to Google. Try this, and use the tool to view that past year of posts, and see what you get.

  8. Anonycat

    Anonycat Crusader

    Let me help. It's one quote from OSA.
  9. Anonycat

    Anonycat Crusader

    I enjoyed what TIME wrote:

    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  10. Churchill

    Churchill Gold Meritorious Patron

    It's been a bad week for the Criminal Cult of Scientology.

    Look for things to get much worse for them.

    Lots of dirty grey rags at OSA...

    You know who you are.
  11. Innominate Dude

    Innominate Dude No Longer Around

    That might seem like a quick and easy taunt to someone ignorant of my education and experiences.

    When inputting your suggested search string "enemy of the church"

    I get 11 hits that include a great many hits that aren't ESMB at all, such as Gawker. Try it yourself as see how paltry a percentage of the hits are ESMB sourced.

    Or must I take it that the point you are trying to make is what you mean by "here"?

    If you mean by "here" the entire internet, you have suggested a fatally flawed Google search because finding both "enemy of the church" and someone deciding to explicitly provide the URL to this site in the text containing "enemy of the church" leaves unanswered how many instances of "enemy of the church" as it relates to discussions of Scientology exist, either in or out of ESMB. And of course you ARE suggesting you mean the entire net by "here" because your suggested search string directs retrieval towards the entirety of the internet, not restricted to any one site such as ESMB at all.

    If you mean by "here" ESMB, I provided you with the correct search string for determining how many instances occur on ESMB of the phrase "enemy of the church".

    [Edited because, screw it, it never does any good to try to discuss certain traditions that pollute discussion of Scientology anyhow.]
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  12. secretiveoldfag

    secretiveoldfag Silver Meritorious Patron

    A consensus seems to be emerging...

    They are worried... They are afraid...

    This OSA that we mention...

  13. I think you must be thinking of Quasimdo's assistant. Quasimodo was a hunchback but his assistant didn't have any arms.

    So in order to ring the bells in Notre Dame Cathedral, he had to take a running start and then bang the bell with his face.

    Naturally he fell one day. When the crowd gather the Gendarme asked, "Does anyone know or recognize this man?"

    One person said, "His face rings a bell."

    And another person said, "I don't know him, but he's a dead ringer for Quasimodo."

    (Sorry, I can't help it. I've been this way since I was a kid. Too much Soupy Sales.)

    The Anabaptist Jacques
  14. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

  15. Anonycat

    Anonycat Crusader

    You don't seem to understand anything, so I'll show you a picture to illustrate what I said.

    enemy of the church.jpg

    Again, my one point being that no one says "enemy of the church" here, yet you do. Understand?
  16. Auditor's Toad

    Auditor's Toad Clear as Mud

    For scn, is there any other news besides BAD news?

    They have screwed their pooch to death.
  17. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    It's always only been good news for whoever is at the top. And even then, they just haven't heard the bad news yet.