More on Brian Culkin and the Lynch Mob

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

See, this is the kind of comment that irks me. You can call him a moron for giving $350,000 but to say that it's totally black and white that he was a moron is not true. The facts seem to be that he comes from some money and relatively speaking, $350K may not seem as much to him as it seems to someone else without that wherewithal. Just because someone is trusting of a supposedly caring organization and trusting of people who have been trained within an inch of their lives to have communication skills that make them seem more interested than most people have usually encountered, doesn't necessarily make that person a moron. If that's the case, we were ALL morons. If you want to go that route, then why is Brian any different?

I certainly was a moron for getting involved with Scientology, I still cringe when I look back at the times I tried to explain Hubbard's non-sense to people as if there was something to it. At least my moronity did not reach the levels of allowing cult members to swipe my credit cards in the back seat of an automobile, and yes it does necessarily make them a moron, there is no way of sugar coating it, all you can do is learn from from it and move on. Pretending you weren't a chump leads you to keep repeating it over and over again. There were people a lot smart than me who knew nothing about Scientology, but they all knew enough to try and talk me out getting involved with Scientology, I wish I listened to them it would save saved my some time.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

The other people you list didn't participate in the attempted torpedoing of someone else's case. There's a huge difference.

His declaration was an act of topedoing, but my next question is - how much of what he relayed to the church did they already know? It isn't too hard for OSA to have one of their syncophants call up Garcia's lawyers, and spin a story about wanting to get in on the action. I doubt he told them anything they didn't already know. He was just a pawn in the game.

Mimsey

 

[Sindy]

I certainly was a moron for getting involved with Scientology, I still cringe when I look back at the times I tried to explain Hubbard's non-sense to people as if there was something to it. At least my moronity did not reach the levels of allowing cult members to swipe my credit cards in the back seat of an automobile, and yes it does necessarily make them a moron, there is no way of sugar coating it, all you can do is learn from from it and move on. Pretending you weren't a chump leads you to keep repeating it over and over again. There were people a lot smart than me who knew nothing about Scientology, but they all knew enough to try and talk me out getting involved with Scientology, I wish I listened to them it would save saved my some time.

Yeah, for sure. LOL. Okay. I agree with you. I mistakenly thought you were singling him out.

I think, though, to not repeat these activities it is important to spot exactly the weakness that allowed one to fall prey. I am not sure being a moron nails it entirely but keeping one's moron detector light on is always a good idea. Ignorance more than being inherently stupid seems to be the culprit but continuing to be ignorant once one spots that one has been so is STUPID.

 

[Boson Wog Stark]

Without naming names, because that would serve no purpose, I consider that there are people who got involved in CoS within the last 10 years, who are as strange or stranger than Brian Culkin in the gullibility area, just reading their stories.

I can think of three right off. One, who seems like a pretty nice person, knew that the cult charged a truckload of money to do OTIII to learn about Xenu the Evil Galactic Overlord -- learned it from reading about it on the Web -- but still ended up joining the Sea Org, because the promises were so enticing in Scientology's literature! (No pressure from family or friends, either.) The cult promised EXACTLY what this person had ALWAYS been looking for.

Well, if you can be that naive and hapless, then that kind of thinking can also spread to other things, like not knowing what you're doing can have a really bad effect on others. People can get as wound up in their dreams and hopes, as they can their turmoil, whether in or out of a cult. It gives a person tunnel vision. So, I don't agree, that a person chooses to have integrity or not. It depends a lot on the situation, who they are, and their past experiences.

Sociopaths, for example, don't have any conscience at all, and they are born that way. While sometimes these people are brought up in an environment that is caring enough, that it makes a difference, for some it doesn't. When intelligent and good looking, sociopaths can become very successful in business. Their lack of conscience allows them to crush competition, and not let anyone get in their way.

Other people, like Jenna Miscavige or Astra Woodcraft, were HEAVILY indoctrinated, but still managed to find their way out, and think quite clearly and responsibly too -- they've helped hundreds of people. For them, Scientology was never about "What's true for you, is true" as it is for celebrities and some public members. For them, Scientology had to be what was true for the adults around them, or what was true for nutty Hubbard -- that they had to save the planet, before it it's too late.

What I'm trying to say is, I think Brian may be wired very differently upstairs. You've got to consider that he may have had one driving ulterior motive for telling his story to the press to begin with -- that was to get his money back. Mission accomplished.

 

[Sindy]

Without naming names, because that would serve no purpose, I consider that there are people who got involved in CoS within the last 10 years, who are as strange or stranger than Brian Culkin in the gullibility area, just reading their stories.

I can think of three right off. One, who seems like a pretty nice person, knew that the cult charged a truckload of money to do OTIII to learn about Xenu the Evil Galactic Overlord -- learned it from reading about it on the Web -- but still ended up joining the Sea Org, because the promises were so enticing in Scientology's literature! (No pressure from family or friends, either.) The cult promised EXACTLY what this person had ALWAYS been looking for.

Well, if you can be that naive and hapless, then that kind of thinking can also spread to other things, like not knowing what you're doing can have a really bad effect on others. People can get as wound up in their dreams and hopes, as they can their turmoil, whether in or out of a cult. It gives a person tunnel vision. So, I don't agree, that a person chooses to have integrity or not. It depends a lot on the situation, who they are, and their past experiences.

Sociopaths, for example, don't have any conscience at all, and they are born that way. While sometimes these people are brought up in an environment that is caring enough, that it makes a difference, for some it doesn't. When intelligent and good looking, sociopaths can become very successful in business. Their lack of conscience allows them to crush competition, and not let anyone get in their way.

Other people, like Jenna Miscavige or Astra Woodcraft, were HEAVILY indoctrinated, but still managed to find their way out, and think quite clearly and responsibly too -- they've helped hundreds of people. For them, Scientology was never about "What's true for you, is true" as it is for celebrities and some public members. For them, Scientology had to be what was true for the adults around them, or what was true for nutty Hubbard -- that they had to save the planet, before it it's too late.

What I'm trying to say is, I think Brian may be wired very differently upstairs. You've got to consider that he may have had one driving ulterior motive for telling his story to the press to begin with -- that was to get his money back. Mission accomplished.

I don't know Brian personally so I have no idea how he's wired. I couldn't possibly make an adjudication about his sanity or lack there of.

Given that a person is not to the extreme of being a sociopath, no matter what the upbringing or experiences, I still think that having personal integrity or any number of exhibited personality traits is a choice. Still that choice may be more difficult for some than for others and some traits may seem almost impossible to change. Even so, I still believe that even if those traits are ingrained in us, there is always still choice. If that were not the case, we could never change.

In the case of a sociopath, I agree. If a person simply has no conscience and completely lacks empathy as a disorder, well, that person is damned.

 

[Lermanet_com]

That's covered in Hubbard's policies.. I think what happened was that the innocent are always guity, no proof needed. In fact, people who needs proof are Supressive Persons and are also guilty.

Again, note how similar $cientology is to the current Federal Gov - specifically the NDAA

"In December 2011, President Obama signed the 2012 NDAA, codifying indefinite military detention without charge or trial into law for the first time in American history. "

So your point would be that lawyers give really bad, dumb advice?

I have noted that most lawyers are crooks, clever enough to work the system without being caught.. Some might call them pragmatists..The Commowealth of Virginia once expelled them all from the colony declaring them VERMIN. Some lawyers have a conscience, ALL practicing lawyers eventually begin to believe that all litigation is only about money. Some ethical humans who become lawyers quit the practice cause the system stinks to high heaven.

Only the naive newbie hangs on every word of a 'lawyer' as gospel...though I have known a very few who were worth listening to.


“Laws are spider webs through which the big flies pass and the little ones get caught.” ― Honoré de Balzac

"Laws, like the spider's web, catch the fly and let the hawk go free." Spanish Proverb

"The law is like a spider's web: the small are caught and the great tear it up." Solon

 

[BunnySkull]

I know that, and I don't like it, but he did what any lawyer would advise. I once took an intro to law course. The teacher, a lawyer asked this question - you just ran over a person, you look into the rear view mirror and see he is still alive squirming on the ground - what should you do? The class almost to a person said get out and help him. The lawyer said we were all wrong - you should put in reverse and make sure he's dead. He listed off several reasons, amoung them that it was an act of kindness - sparing the person a life of pain asnd suffering.

Things aren't always what you think they are.

Mimsey

Wrong it's not about sparing pain and suffering. My father was a lawyer practicing in the US, he told me basically same scenario but the reason was the law had a limit/ cap for the amount paid for a death via automobile accident whereas there was no-cap (i.e. unlimited damages could be awarded) for pain and suffering for people who survived accidents. Death was way cheaper than survivors. The whole rationale was money/ damage awards - nothing more, nothing about sparing people pain, it was about saving insurance companies money.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Wrong it's not about sparing pain and suffering. My father was a lawyer practicing in the US, he told me basically same scenario but the reason was the law had a limit/ cap for the amount paid for a death via automobile accident whereas there was no-cap (i.e. unlimited damages could be awarded) for pain and suffering for people who survived accidents. Death was way cheaper than survivors. The whole rationale was money/ damage awards - nothing more, nothing about sparing people pain, it was about saving insurance companies money.

I couldn't remember all the reasons he mentioned, but this is one he mentioned, if not the primary reason. I think the other one I mentioned came up in discussion after he dropped the bombshell. Thanks Bun

 

[AnonyMary]

Brian Culkin’s Declaration is based upon information Culkin provided to Sarah Heller, as outlined in Heller’s Declaration.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/140682750/Sarah-Heller-Declaration.

Signing a piece of paper not knowing the content is one thing but supplying all the information, including emails and such which resulted in the created document one read and agreed to and then signed…. well, it’s clear that he knew what he signed and he said as much after the fact on Tony’s article, making it clear that he knew what that he intentionally wrote it.

Geir is justifying what he did. Even Brian isn’t justifying what he did!

He said it right here:

“Brianc •

People who know me, know fully where i stand on this issue. There is nothing in that declaration that was secret in any way, shape, or form.

I am truly sorry if I hurt or offended anyone on this blog.

I want nothing to do with Scientology, independent, the church anything.

I just wanted to move on with my life.

Again. I am incredibly upset by this and I feel extremely angry and upset. My hands are shaking typing this.

I never thought for a second I was selling anyone out. And if you put emotion aside and read it closely — I hope you see the same thing.”

htttp://tonyortega.org/2013/05/10/scientology-files-to-remove-garcia-attorneys-from-fraud-lawsuit/#comment-892621004

 

[Boson Wog Stark]

I don't know Brian personally so I have no idea how he's wired. I couldn't possibly make an adjudication about his sanity or lack there of.

Given that a person is not to the extreme of being a sociopath, no matter what the upbringing or experiences, I still think that having personal integrity or any number of exhibited personality traits is a choice. Still that choice may be more difficult for some than for others and some traits may seem almost impossible to change. Even so, I still believe that even if those traits are ingrained in us, there is always still choice. If that were not the case, we could never change.

In the case of a sociopath, I agree. If a person simply has no conscience and completely lacks empathy as a disorder, well, that person is damned.

I don't think Brian is insane, or a sociopath -- well, maybe a touch of the latter -- but, from his posts, which I found very strange at the times, I can envision him being so caught up in his own turmoil (mixed with a self-image that includes considerable grandeur), that it became incapable for him to reason or feel for the situation of others. So, he became blinded by the situation he found himself drawn into.

I can think of times this happened to me, when it really hurt someone I loved, so caught up was I in my own confusion and feelings.

You've got to also remember that Brian NEVER exhibited the devotion to the critical cause, so to speak, or even cared to work out his own case in public, admitting any kind of real guilt -- not in a "pulled it in" way but any complicity whatsoever. Like he never said, "I really let my ego get carried away there, when at Flag they started making me believe I was this person who could help so many people," or "Boy, was I stupid!" Of course, sometimes, as we know, those kind of realizations take years for ex-members to deal with.

For Brian, karmic balance may have meant getting his money back, because CoS had deceived and manipulated him -- which they did. At some point, he decided this would be his release, and something that would also allow him to exit the scene.

One thing I've noticed is that in a lot of cases, the more a person put into CoS, in years, their youth, their childhood, belief, trust, the pain they suffered -- the more they are willing to devote to fighting them when they get out, IF THEY ARE MOVED BY THE PLIGHT OF OTHERS. Brian was a wealthy dabbler -- a spiritual traveler. He didn't end up cleaning toilets for them, or wrestling with guilt about regging so many friends and family into it.

It couldn't have been easy realizing that he was historic in epic dupedom either. That isn't how HE viewed himself, certainly. He wasn't like ex-members, like Luis for example, who may rationalize that Scientology helped him become successful in life and business -- even if it did these other things. Brian was already rich and accomplished by most anyone's standards, when he started as a Scientologist. Even Jenna could rationalize that at least she met Dallas through this journey, and she didn't have to deal with the idea of "getting herself into it."

It's possible he took the strategy of claiming some benefits from it, and hanging around the indies (on Marty's blog anyway) because it would help his case for getting his money back. He saw that that helped Debbie Cook. If Debbie Cook had said, "I don't believe in this shit anymore," would that have helped her case? When he saw that strategy wasn't working and this was just dragging on, he began Plan B -- just get out. Get the Miscavige cult freaks off his case.

 

[Boson Wog Stark]

I certainly was a moron for getting involved with Scientology, I still cringe when I look back at the times I tried to explain Hubbard's non-sense to people as if there was something to it. At least my moronity did not reach the levels of allowing cult members to swipe my credit cards in the back seat of an automobile, and yes it does necessarily make them a moron, there is no way of sugar coating it, all you can do is learn from from it and move on. Pretending you weren't a chump leads you to keep repeating it over and over again. There were people a lot smart than me who knew nothing about Scientology, but they all knew enough to try and talk me out getting involved with Scientology, I wish I listened to them it would save saved my some time.

I've been stupid in plenty of things in life, and I loved the "l was stupid," that Paul Haggis said, or any ex like yourself says. However, it's something to contemplate that without Wright taking an interest in Haggis' story, Haggis would never have gotten to that point in public confession. Brian probably thought that any admission like that would hurt his chances for a refund. "You made a mistake? Well, it wasn't our fault then. No refund for you!"

 

[TG1]

Your comments above remind me of the debt this community owes Paul Haggis. He went public at a critical time with righteous issues.

Thank you, Paul Haggis.

TG1

 

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

Your comments above remind me of the debt this community owes Paul Haggis. He went public at a critical time with righteous issues.

Thank you, Paul Haggis.

TG1

Yes, thanks Paul!

(see sig line)

 

[Sindy]

I don't think Brian is insane, or a sociopath -- well, maybe a touch of the latter -- but, from his posts, which I found very strange at the times, I can envision him being so caught up in his own turmoil (mixed with a self-image that includes considerable grandeur), that it became incapable for him to reason or feel for the situation of others. So, he became blinded by the situation he found himself drawn into.

I can think of times this happened to me, when it really hurt someone I loved, so caught up was I in my own confusion and feelings.

You've got to also remember that Brian NEVER exhibited the devotion to the critical cause, so to speak, or even cared to work out his own case in public, admitting any kind of real guilt -- not in a "pulled it in" way but any complicity whatsoever. Like he never said, "I really let my ego get carried away there, when at Flag they started making me believe I was this person who could help so many people," or "Boy, was I stupid!" Of course, sometimes, as we know, those kind of realizations take years for ex-members to deal with.

For Brian, karmic balance may have meant getting his money back, because CoS had deceived and manipulated him -- which they did. At some point, he decided this would be his release, and something that would also allow him to exit the scene.

One thing I've noticed is that in a lot of cases, the more a person put into CoS, in years, their youth, their childhood, belief, trust, the pain they suffered -- the more they are willing to devote to fighting them when they get out, IF THEY ARE MOVED BY THE PLIGHT OF OTHERS. Brian was a wealthy dabbler -- a spiritual traveler. He didn't end up cleaning toilets for them, or wrestling with guilt about regging so many friends and family into it.

It couldn't have been easy realizing that he was historic in epic dupedom either. That isn't how HE viewed himself, certainly. He wasn't like ex-members, like Luis for example, who may rationalize that Scientology helped him become successful in life and business -- even if it did these other things. Brian was already rich and accomplished by most anyone's standards, when he started as a Scientologist. Even Jenna could rationalize that at least she met Dallas through this journey, and she didn't have to deal with the idea of "getting herself into it."

It's possible he took the strategy of claiming some benefits from it, and hanging around the indies (on Marty's blog anyway) because it would help his case for getting his money back. He saw that that helped Debbie Cook. If Debbie Cook had said, "I don't believe in this shit anymore," would that have helped her case? When he saw that strategy wasn't working and this was just dragging on, he began Plan B -- just get out. Get the Miscavige cult freaks off his case.

You make an interesting case. I hear what you are saying -- it's reasoned and well thought out. Still, speculating about Brian's motives is just that -- speculation. I don't mind dabbling in speculation, one bit, as long as I keep my head about me and know that is what I am doing so I don't commit those speculations to the category of fact when commenting on the subject.

Here's what sucks a million donkey balls -- HE AIN'T TALKIN'. That apparently common after-effect (of these agreements) is what pisses me off the most. That's what allows all of this speculation. Like I said on Geir's blog, no one is going to stop people from saying whatever the hell they want to say. To try and control a bunch of Internet commentators is folly. However, what could and should (IMO) be controlled is the accuracy of the published information and then how it is perceived by virtue of the involved parties communicating publicly until it's straightened out and understood. Why publicly? Because it has already become public and the time for sorting out before it flapped has long elapsed. The cat is out of the bag, like it or not.

Brian may not feel like sorting this out but he should and if he signed an agreement not to speak -- screw him. Really, that's how I feel about anybody letting the cult tie one's tongue.

 

[Purple Rain]

You make an interesting case. I hear what you are saying -- it's reasoned and well thought out. Still, speculating about Brian's motives is just that -- speculation. I don't mind dabbling in speculation, one bit, as long as I keep my head about me and know that is what I am doing so I don't commit those speculations to the category of fact when commenting on the subject.

Here's what sucks a million donkey balls -- HE AIN'T TALKIN'. That apparently common after-effect (of these agreements) is what pisses me off the most. That's what allows all of this speculation. Like I said on Geir's blog, no one is going to stop people from saying whatever the hell they want to say. To try and control a bunch of Internet commentators is folly. However, what could and should (IMO) be controlled is the accuracy of the published information and then how it is perceived by virtue of the involved parties communicating publicly until it's straightened out and understood. Why publicly? Because it has already become public and the time for sorting out before it flapped has long elapsed. The cat is out of the bag, like it or not.

Brian may not feel like sorting this out but he should and if he signed an agreement not to speak -- screw him. Really, that's how I feel about anybody letting the cult tie one's tongue.

I don't care why he did it. I still think, "Screw him". And if he gives a damn what I think that's his problem not mine.

 

[Sindy]

I don't care why he did it. I still think, "Screw him". And if he gives a damn what I think that's his problem not mine.

Purple, no one is budging you an inch. I love your persistent consistency!

 

[tikk]

His declaration was an act of topedoing, but my next question is - how much of what he relayed to the church did they already know? It isn't too hard for OSA to have one of their syncophants call up Garcia's lawyers, and spin a story about wanting to get in on the action. I doubt he told them anything they didn't already know. He was just a pawn in the game.

Mimsey

It doesn't matter what they already knew, they still needed to hang their motion on facts which only he or another insider could supply. Their motion would be empty and short-lived without Culkin alleging Johnson was a "case manager," etc.

 

[TG1]

I'm betting that another piece of this whole maneuver by CoS with Dumbo is the cult's revenge motive regarding their erstwhile lawyer Johnson.

How DARE he?!?

TG1

 

[Purple Rain]

I'm betting that another piece of this whole maneuver by CoS with Dumbo is the cult's revenge motive regarding their erstwhile lawyer Johnson.

How DARE he?!?

TG1

As Smilla would say, "It's an OUTRAGE!" Lol!

 

[Purple Rain]

Purple, no one is budging you an inch. I love your persistent consistency!

Look, if they had abducted his baby daughter and threatened to dismember her piece by piece and chuck her in the river like Hubbard did to Sarah then I could understand that. I'd go, "Dude, do what you've got to do." It would just have to be bloody good is all. And not all this "devil made me do it" - "I was powerless when he looked in my eyes" bullshit.