My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare... ;- )

[Voltaire's Child]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

Why do you assume that anyone is proselytizing on behalf of scientology to Markus? What data have you seen to support such a conclusion?


Mark A. Baker

Because it's better to assume the worst about people whose beliefs one despises?

---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 PM ----------

I request to stop this public interrogation.

Nicole makes assumptions, just like you and I.

Mark, don't you trigger things, please.

But this thread is an interrogation. Most threads have interrogatory type posts in them.

Just as Markus has the right to tell believers to fuck off (even if he's not been approached by any) so do people have the right to interrogate.

As long as no ROCs are breached.

 

[VaD]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

Anyone has a right to say anything, as long as no ROCs are breached.

However, when someone tells someone else to fuck off, I would assume it's because that person was actually approached by that person. Otherwise, there's no reason to say it.

I was once at a garden party and these overly anxious first time parents were there with their baby, who was quietly sitting on the grass with her Mom and Dad. A cat (who lived at that house) was walking by. Cat did not approach baby. Cat had no interest in baby. But the parents were kind of spooked and said to the cat "stay away from my child!" They had no need to- it was strictly out of anxiety and fear.

Claire,

what point are you trying to make?

That Markus shouldn't have said what he said?

I'd say the same.

Re: Rules of Conduct. Markus has every right to be emotional about "Tech Believers" trying to speak for Xenu, BTs and other sci-fi things like that.

"It's not the fall that kills the person. It's that sudden stop at the end".

Some think that Tech does nothing bad, and you can always get out and get away...

Since the falling is not seen, they tend to feel this falling as being good... Until it comes to a stop.


Hope I'm clear about the point.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

Claire,

what point are you trying to make?

That Markus shouldn't have said what he said?

I'd say the same.

Re: Rules of Conduct. Markus has every right to be emotional about "Tech Believers" trying to speak for Xenu, BTs and other sci-fi things like that.

"It's not the fall that kills the person. It's that sudden stop at the end".

Some think that Tech does nothing bad, and you can always get out and get away...

Since the falling is not seen, they tend to feel this falling as being good... Until it comes to a stop.


Hope I'm clear about the point.

Since I remarked several times that Markus can air his views and is free to do so I obviously am not saying he should or should not say those things.

It's a discussion group. I'm discussing a public post.

For an explanation of what I wrote, please see what I wrote.

 

[VaD]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

Just as Markus has the right to tell believers to fuck off (even if he's not been approached by any) so do people have the right to interrogate.

As long as no ROCs are breached.

Has Markus say "f**k off"?

I haven't seen it.

When *I* said "f**k off" was only my own interpretation of his message to "Tech Believers".

---------- Post added at 01:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 AM ----------

Since I remarked several times that Markus can air his views and is free to do so I obviously am not saying he should or should not say those things.

It's a discussion group. I'm discussing a public post.

For an explanation of what I wrote, please see what I wrote.

Yes! We are discussing this.

Original Post of Markus is a song (which I enjoy listening to, BTW).

***
NB:
Claire, you quoted my post above but haven't given a response to it.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

Has Markus say "f**k off"?

I haven't seen it.

When *I* said "f**k of" was only my own interpretation of his message to "Tech Believers".

I was only responding to your comment: Markus has a full right to say, "Scn Tech Believers, F**k off!"

---------- Post added at 01:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 AM ----------

[/COLOR]

Yes! We are discussing this.

Original Post of Markus is a song (which I enjoy listening to, BTW).

***
NB:
Claire, you quoted my post above but haven't given a response to it.

I did respond.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

I request to stop this public interrogation. ...

Why?

Seriously, a bit more questioning of personal assumptions prior to an individual making a post would be a very good thing to encourage.

The questions I posed were for the most part rhetorical. But they serve the point of raising the very valid question of on what basis were the implicit assumptions underlying the statements in the prior post made.

Personally I think questioning assumptions and posing rhetorical questions constitutes a much preferable form of posting than simply telling others with whom you disagree to 'f#ck off' (literally or figuratively), or propagating false perspectives of the views of others with whom one may disagree (intentionally or unintentionally).

Questions posed in a civil fashion tend to be for the good, whether rhetorical or not.


Mark A. Baker

 

[VaD]

Scientology Tech is bad for you

Scientology Tech is bad for you

Some are liberal democrats about the Scn Tech around here.

They say that "everyone has his own choice, and he will decide for himself".

I think that Scn tech leads one into a dark labirinth that has no exit. Or, into slow fall that ends up in a stop (death).

Telling people that Scn helps people to me is similar to saying that voodoo helps people. - Yes, they both do. But not in a way that we think they do.

 

[Markus]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

To all the "justifiers" the "true believers" "incorrigible stubborns" and all the "Techies" "Freezoners" or "Independents" even if they claim to be free from Hubbards mindf..k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXZqRagpdaU

"You say
We must move forward
And I say
Let’s not go back
Once we were brave explorers
But this trail is a worn-out track

Don’t chase that setting sun
Look what we’ve become

Don’t save me
I’ll save you the hassle
Our little castle is a house of cards
It’s empty
Heartache is pending
This is us ending

You say
You were just kidding
And I say
This is no joke
We’ve grown and we’re not fitting
We flamed out to a whisp of smoke

Don’t turn the truth around
It reads the same way upside down

Don’t save me
I’ll save you the hassle
Our little castle is a house of cards
It’s empty
Heartache is pending
This is us ending

So don’t save me
Don’t you dare

Little by little
Sneaking upon
‘Til it’s too much to ignore
Let’s leave in the middle
Before it dead ends
I’ve been down this road

Don’t save me
I’ll save you the hassle
Our little castle is a house of cards
It’s empty
Heartache is pending
This is us ending

Don’t save me
I’ll save you the hassle
Our little castle is a house of cards
It’s empty
Heartache is pending
This is us ending

So don’t save me
Don’t you dare"

To Emma,
thank you for fixing ESMB and thank you for all what you have done in the past to provide this "place" for all of us.

much love
Markus

Well let me tune in here again - thanks to VaD and Nicole for trying to explain what I wanted to say. I would like to make a detailed explanation in German what my intentions and feelings were when I started this thread in order to stop any further misinterpretations. I hope someone can translate this post then.
Above I quoted my own OP of this thread - here is my detailed explanation what my feelings and intentions were when I posted it:

Aber erst einmal noch eine Version von "Don't save me" speziell für Dich VaD - weil Dir der Song so gut gefallen hat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A90d-jxLPLE

VaD war der erste, der den Song überhaupt erwähnt hat. Eigentlich wollte ich nur eine Stimmung ausdrücken, als ich diesen "Thread" gestartet habe - ich habe das Lied gehört und es hat meine Gefühle in Bezug auf bestimmte Mitglieder von "ESMB" sehr gut ausgedrückt. Eigentlich war mir schon klar, dass das Ganze in eine endlose Diskussion auf einer Ebene ausarten wird, die mit meinem Gefühl leider gar nichts mehr zu tun hat.

to be continued soon

Love
Markus

 

[VaD]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

Why?

Seriously, a bit more questioning of personal assumptions prior to an individual making a post would be a very good thing to encourage.

The questions I posed were for the most part rhetorical. But they serve the point of raising the very valid question of on what basis were the implicit assumptions underlying the statements in the prior post made.

Personally I think questioning assumptions and posing rhetorical questions constitutes a much preferable form of posting than simply telling others with whom you disagree to 'f#ck off' (literally or figuratively), or propagating false perspectives of the views of others with whom one may disagree (intentionally or unintentionally).

Questions posed in a civil fashion tend to be for the good, whether rhetorical or not.


Mark A. Baker

Mark,

As long as it is rethorical, it's fine.

Sometimes, I take things personally... and become defensive, - and offensive.

My "f**k off" wasn't meant to be a keyword for this thread.

****

I don't know if Markus said or meant to say "F**k off" to Tech Believers.
- It was me who said it. So, don't bother Markus about it.

Bother me.
(And let's have fun, tech believers).

 

[Gadfly]

Re: Scientology Tech is bad for you

Scientology Tech is bad for you

Scientology delivered within the bounds of the Church of Scientology is not good for you, but it isn't so much the "auditing" that isn't good for you, as it is the SEVERE INDOCTRINATION AND THOUGHT CONTROL that isn't good for you.

I mentioned in an earlier post that an intelligent use of ARC saved my life. There is NO question about it. It is not even open to interpretation. Without knowing and applying the "tech" of ARC, I wouldn't almost certainly be dead today.

Your generality, as a generality, is FAR TOO WIDE and SWEEPING. It is simply NOT TRUE.

Some are liberal democrats about the Scn Tech around here.

Cute analogy. Though, I wouldn't wave too proudly about being the opposite - a right-wing Republican!

They say that "everyone has his own choice, and he will decide for himself".

I think that Scn tech leads one into a dark labirinth that has no exit. Or, into slow fall that ends up in a stop (death).

No doubt that for most people, most of the time, participating in the organized CHURCH of Scientology leads one into a dark labirinth. The whole shebang, taken all together, with no picking and choosing, and tossing away of all the third dynamic shit, will most certainly FUCK YOU UP!

Telling people that Scn helps people to me is similar to saying that voodoo helps people. - Yes, they both do. But not in a way that we think they do.

VaD, you need to differentiate here. You stated somewhere recently that you felt that I more than anyone best described the Scientology mind fuck. Maybe I do and maybe I don't, but it is largely the GREEN organizational policies that facilitate and continue that mind fuck.

Take that away, allow people to pick and choose, allow people to disagree with whatever they want to disagree with, allow people to make fun of various stupid Hubbard claims, and the "dark labyrinth" aspect greatly diminishes or even vanishes.

KSW makes Scientology insane because it is too extreme and one-sided.

And, your statement is exactly the same when you say "Scientology Tech is bad for you". That is the flipside of the nutty coin where the other side proclaims "Scientology Tech is good for you". The problem is the same with both. Extreme, one-sided, NO TOLERANCE.

Granting tolerance is one of the "highest" of spiritual traits. Of course it takes some wisdom to know when to give it, and when not to (when doing so would justify or support harm of another).

See, organized Scientology allows no tolerance for ANYTHNG outside of its own severely limited and tight little box of views. You need to be at least BIGGER than THAT, or then you are no better. :confused2:

It is a FACT that some people truly feel that some aspect of Scientology Tech has "helped them". That is what it is. All of your loud claiming and asserting can't and won't change that. In FACT, for some people, in their most honest and sincere view, Scientology "tech" is good for them.

I will agree, organized Scientology (which is where Uwe died) is most certainly NOT good for you. It can NEVER be "good" for you, though granted some may feel (in their severe delusion) that it is somehow "good for them". But, any imbecile can see the great nuttiness and harm that flows directly from Hubbard's organization based on his exact policies and directives.

Auditing tech, OUTSIDE of that insane framework is something else ENTIRELY. And, probably, various useful aspects of the "tech" are even "more useful" when taken out and away from the severe oppression and mind-numbing effects of organized Scientology (ANY version, not limited only to being led by Miscavige).

 

[VaD]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

Gadfly,

It's clear throughout your message that you oppose *organized Scientology*... and it seems you don't oppose Scientology as a subject.

You generously talk about Hubbard's mindf**k but tend not to recognize its basic mindf**k - its philosophy.

You are still philosophizing. Why?

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Scientology Tech is bad for you

VaD, you need to differentiate here. You stated somewhere recently that you felt that I more than anyone best described the Scientology mind fuck. Maybe I do and maybe I don't, but it is largely the GREEN organizational policies that facilitate and continue that mind fuck.

Take that away, allow people to pick and choose, allow people to disagree with whatever they want to disagree with, allow people to make fun of various stupid Hubbard claims, and the "dark labyrinth" aspect greatly diminishes or even vanishes.

KSW makes Scientology insane because it is too extreme and one-sided.

And, your statement is exactly the same when you say "Scientology Tech is bad for you". That is the flipside of the nutty coin where the other side proclaims "Scientology Tech is good for you". The problem is the same with both. Extreme, one-sided, NO TOLERANCE.

Granting tolerance is one of the "highest" of spiritual traits. Of course it takes some wisdom to know when to give it, and when not to (when doing so would justify or support harm of another).

See, organized Scientology allows no tolerance for ANYTHNG outside of its own severely limited and tight little box of views. You need to be at least BIGGER than THAT, or then you are no better. :confused2:

It is a FACT that some people truly feel that some aspect of Scientology Tech has "helped them". That is what it is. All of your loud claiming and asserting can't and won't change that. In FACT, for some people, in their most honest and sincere view, Scientology "tech" is good for them.

I will agree, organized Scientology (which is where Uwe died) is most certainly NOT good for you. It can NEVER be "good" for you, though granted some may feel (in their severe delusion) that it is somehow "good for them". But, any imbecile can see the great nuttiness and harm that flows directly from Hubbard's organization based on his exact policies and directives.

Auditing tech, OUTSIDE of that insane framework is something else ENTIRELY. And, probably, various useful aspects of the "tech" are even "more useful" when taken out and away from the severe oppression and mind-numbing effects of organized Scientology (ANY version, not limited only to being led by Miscavige).

Mark A. Baker

 

[Gadfly]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

Gadfly,

It's clear throughout your message that you oppose *organized Scientology*... and it seems you don't oppose Scientology as a subject.

You generously talk about Hubbard's mindf**k but tend not to recognize its basic mindf**k - its philosophy.

You are still philosophizing. Why?

VaD, please read my posts.

I state over and over that "organized Scientology" is directly based on Hubbard's subject materials dealing with the third dynamic. I have NEVER stated or even given the idea that I somehow feel that "the subject is good" and the "organization is bad". His third dynamic theories and practices SUCK! They cause the majority of the trouble for most of the people involved with Scientology. These third dynamic policies are mostly used and pushed by the organized Church - and NOT by many or even any in the Free Zone. When and if they do, I will come out LOUDLY against THEM.

If there is any distinction, it is somewhat between the "organizational tech", and the "self-help tech". Very DIFFERENT bodies of data.

I thought we put this "kneejerk reaction" against all things "philosophy" to bed on another thread.

The organization functions and does continually stupid shit, to staff, to public, and to "enemies", BECAUSE HUBBARD DIRECTS SUCH ACTIONS IN POLICY (in the SUBJECT). Can I be any clearer?

All of THESE things, that SUCK so bad, exist because of the OEC volumes, the OSA N/W Orders, and the ethics and justice policies:

SP Declares
Disconnection
Noisy Investigations
Overwhelming Lawsuits
Staging events and scenarios to trap or harm people
Hard Sell
TR-Lying
Manipulative uses of ARC such as with "ruin-finding"
No free speech or dissent
Threats of "losing your eternity" if you don't tow the RTC/management party line
The RPF
$50 per week pay in the Sea Org
Stupidly high prices
Suppressive acts (high crimes) that are based on ONLY forwarding the aims and success of the Scientology organization

Just imagine for a second that ALL OF THAT were removed. Please, imagine it. Then giive me examples of what possible "bad things" would/might be left.

In the end, if all of that crap were taken away, which largely happens when any person LEAVES the Church of Scientology and REFUSES to follow Hubbard's directions on the functioning of the organization and the goal to "expand Scientology", these people doing some auditing or training are no different than nearly ANY other reasonably non-toxic "self-help group".

I don't necessarily believe or agree with the "philosophy" of the Baptists down the street, or the practices of the "snake-handlers" over in the next county who "speak in tongues", BUT I am NOT going to pretend that I have the slightest idea what is best for any other person in terms of beliefs and practices. Just like I want the freedom to choose as I see fit, so I extend that courtesy to all others. In fact, what I just described is a unique application of the maxim, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

I disagree with and happily remove all "Scientology subject materials" that direct, encourage or support the above nasty, detrimental or harmful ACTIONS. Gone! Poof! Down the proverbial toilet! Never to be seen again! That still leaves a good amount of the "red volumes".

And, I don't myself care about or support much of the rest of the subject (the auditing stuff), BUT I entirely grant the right for any person to do so if they want, because I consider FREEDOM to CHOOSE more important and valuable than allowing some imbeciles to come along and deny free choice to others. As long as they do NOT HARM anybody in the name of forwarding the "aims" of their "philosophy" or "religion".

I don't really "believe in" much of anything, I certainly adhere to no extant "philosophy", but I do have certain opinions based on experience with life and people, and one of them is to "let people do whatever the fuck they want as long as they don't hurt anybody" - and to fight hard to ensure that protection remains in place for EVERYBODY - no matter how alien the beliefs or practices may appear to me.

Is that any clearer?

 

[Markus]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

To all the "justifiers" the "true believers" "incorrigible stubborns" and all the "Techies" "Freezoners" or "Independents" even if they claim to be free from Hubbards mindf..k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXZqRagpdaU

"You say
We must move forward
And I say
Let’s not go back
Once we were brave explorers
But this trail is a worn-out track

Don’t chase that setting sun
Look what we’ve become

Don’t save me
I’ll save you the hassle
Our little castle is a house of cards
It’s empty
Heartache is pending
This is us ending

You say
You were just kidding
And I say
This is no joke
We’ve grown and we’re not fitting
We flamed out to a whisp of smoke

Don’t turn the truth around
It reads the same way upside down

Don’t save me
I’ll save you the hassle
Our little castle is a house of cards
It’s empty
Heartache is pending
This is us ending

So don’t save me
Don’t you dare

Little by little
Sneaking upon
‘Til it’s too much to ignore
Let’s leave in the middle
Before it dead ends
I’ve been down this road

Don’t save me
I’ll save you the hassle
Our little castle is a house of cards
It’s empty
Heartache is pending
This is us ending

Don’t save me
I’ll save you the hassle
Our little castle is a house of cards
It’s empty
Heartache is pending
This is us ending

So don’t save me
Don’t you dare"

To Emma,
thank you for fixing ESMB and thank you for all what you have done in the past to provide this "place" for all of us.

much love
Markus

Nicole hat recht - es gab tatsächlich ESMB Mitglieder, die versucht haben mich zu "retten". Mir wurde zum Beispiel mehrfach angeboten mich zu auditieren, um mich vom Schmerz über den Tod meines Bruders zu befreien. Die betreffenden Personen haben das aus ihrer Sicht sicher nur gut gemeint, waren sich aber offensichtlich in keinster Weise bewußt darüber wie verletzend dieses Angebot für mich war, obwohl ich ihnen nicht nur hier auf ESMB, sondern auch in verschiedenen persönlichen Nachrichten unmißverständlich mitgeteilt habe wie ich über Hubbard und seine Menschen versklavende Falle denke.
Diese Auditing Angebote waren aber überhaupt nicht der Grund für diesen "Thread"

Ich werde versuchen anhand eines drastischen Beispiels zu erklären was genau mich am Verhalten bestimmter Mitglieder dieses Ex Scientologist Message Board stört.


Stellen wir uns vor ein junger Nazi Offizier dessertiert im Jahr 1944 aus Warschau.
Er hat alle Verbrechen gesehen, die gegen die Juden und die Einheimische Bevölkerung begangen wurden. Er kennt das System ganz genau und möchte dass die Opfer die Möglichkeit haben sich über ihre Erfahrungen auszutauschen und beschließt deshalb ein Message Board einzurichten. (wir nehmen einfach an, dass er damals schon die Möglichkeit gehabt hätte) Er möchte die Meinungsfreiheit der Mitglieder seines Ex Nazi Message Boards (ENMB) möglichst wenig einschränken und erlaubt deshalb auch nur teilweise oder wenig "erwachten" Nazis sich an den Diskussionen zu beteiligen. Ein Jüdisches Mädchen deren Familie seit zehn Generationen in deutschland gelebt hat und deren Eltern zu Beginn von der Nationalsozialistischen Bewegeung begeistert waren erzählt wie sie unter Ihren Erfahrungen in einem Konzentrationslager noch heute zu leiden hat und wie ihr Vater gerade noch mit dem Leben davon kam - die schlimmen Erfahrungen haben ihm aber den Verstand gekostet. Sie muss sich von diesen nur teilweise "erwachten" Nazis anhören, dass die Lager ja auch ihre guten Seiten hätten. Sie sorgten doch für Disziplin und Ordnung und sie berichten von ihren positiven Erfahrungen und Erfolgen in und durch das System des National Sozialismus. "Es war nicht alles schlecht" - muss sie sich immer wieder anhören. Dann taucht plötzlich General M. - der ehemalige Vorgesetzte des jungen Offiziers auf ENMB auf, der die Verfolgung der Juden und Polen in leitender Funktion befehligt hat. Dieser behauptet er sei "erwacht"
und wolle das System verbessern das vom aktuellen Führer nur falsch interpretiert wird. Dieser General denkt aber nicht daran alle Verbrechen öffentlich zu machen, die er angeordnet oder beobachtet hat - würde er es tun wäre die Nazi Herrschaft innerhalb kürzester Zeit beendet. Der General behauptet - was Adolf Hitler in "Sein Kampf" geschrieben hat sei alles nur falsch interpretiert worden und er gründet eine kleine Gruppe die sich "unabhängige Nazis" nennt. Nun muß das Jüdische Mädchen feststellen, dass viele Mitglieder von ENMB für dieses seltsame Verhalten des General M. Verständnis haben. Und manche behaupten sogar, dass ihre Meinung ja nicht objektiv sein könne weil sie Leid durch das Nazi System erfahren habe.
Am Boden zerstört meidet sie nun dieses Board mit dem sie zu Beginn so viel Hoffnung auf ein baldiges Ende der Unterdrückung durch die Nazis verbunden hatte.

Love
Markus

P.S. Ich habe die allergrößten Probleme mit den "Rechtfertigern" und den "wahren Hubbard Gläubigen" zum Beispiel den "Independent Scientologists" und deren "Rechtfertigern".
Ich teile Gadflys Meinung nicht, dass durch Auditing außerhalb der Organisation kein Schaden angerichtet werden kann.
In der Freezone gibt es anscheinend Niemanden, der für seinen Service Werbung macht oder davon finanziell profitiert.
Wenn das tatsächlich stimmt, dann sehe ich keine große Gefahr - außer natürlich für die Person selbst und deren Familie, die weiter unter den Technologien eines Wahnsinnigen zu leiden hat.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

Hey, Vad,

Don't try to save me...don't you dare...

 

[VaD]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

Gadfly,

I may be misenterpreting you but -

Do you think that Scientlogy given to individuals individually (without any organizations to support them and follow their progress) can make them feel better?

Are you saying that Scn tech applied on the individual basis can make someone better?

 

[MrNobody]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

Nicole hat recht - es gab tatsächlich ESMB Mitglieder, die versucht haben mich zu "retten". Mir wurde zum Beispiel mehrfach angeboten mich zu auditieren, um mich vom Schmerz über den Tod meines Bruders zu befreien. Die betreffenden Personen haben das aus ihrer Sicht sicher nur gut gemeint, waren sich aber offensichtlich in keinster Weise bewußt darüber wie verletzend dieses Angebot für mich war, obwohl ich ihnen nicht nur hier auf ESMB, sondern auch in verschiedenen persönlichen Nachrichten unmißverständlich mitgeteilt habe wie ich über Hubbard und seine Menschen versklavende Falle denke.
Diese Auditing Angebote waren aber überhaupt nicht der Grund für diesen "Thread"

Ich werde versuchen anhand eines drastischen Beispiels zu erklären was genau mich am Verhalten bestimmter Mitglieder diese Ex Scientologist Message Board stört.


Stellen wir uns vor ein junger Nazi Offizier dessertiert im Jahr 1944 aus Warschau.
Er hat alle Verbrechen gesehen, die gegen die Juden und die Einheimische Bevölkerung begangen wurden. Er kennt das System ganz genau und möchte dass die Opfer die Möglichkeit haben sich über ihre Erfahrungen auszutauschen und beschließt deshalb ein Message Board einzurichten. (wir nehmen einfach an, dass er damals schon die Möglichkeit gehabt hätte) Er möchte die Meinungsfreiheit der Mitglieder seines Ex Nazi Message Boards (ENMB) möglichst wenig einschränken und erlaubt deshalb auch nur teilweise oder wenig "erwachten" Nazis sich an den Diskussionen zu beteiligen. Ein Jüdisches Mädchen deren Familie seit zehn Generationen in deutschland gelebt hat und deren Eltern zu Beginn von der Nationalsozialistischen Bewegeung begeistert waren erzählt wie sie unter Ihren Erfahrungen in einem Konzentrationslager noch heute zu leiden hat und wie ihr Vater gerade noch mit dem Leben davon kam - die schlimmen Erfahrungen haben ihm aber den Verstand gekostet. Sie muss sich von diesen nur teilweise "erwachten" Nazis anhören, dass die Lager ja auch ihre guten Seiten hätten. Sie sorgten doch für Disziplin und Ordnung und sie berichten von ihren positiven Erfahrungen und Erfolgen in und durch das System des National Sozialismus. "Es war nicht alles schlecht" - muss sie sich immer wieder anhören. Dann taucht plötzlich General M. - der ehemalige Vorgesetzte des jungen Offiziers auf ENMB auf, der die Verfolgung der Juden und Polen in leitender Funktion befehligt hat. Dieser behauptet er sei "erwacht"
und wolle das System verbessern das vom aktuellen Führer nur falsch interpretiert wird. Dieser General denkt aber nicht daran alle Verbrechen öffentlich zu machen, die er angeordnet oder beobachtet hat - würde er es tun wäre die Nazi Herrschaft innerhalb kürzester Zeit beendet. Der General behauptet - was Adolf Hitler in "Sein Kampf" geschrieben hat sei alles nur falsch interpretiert worden und er gründet eine kleine Gruppe die sich "unabhängige Nazis" nennt. Nun muß das Jüdische Mädchen feststellen, dass viele Mitglieder von ENMB für dieses seltsame Verhalten des General M. Verständnis haben. Und manche behaupten sogar, dass ihre Meinung ja nicht objektiv sein könne weil sie Leid durch das Nazi System erfahren habe.
Am Boden zerstört meidet sie nun dieses Board mit dem sie zu Beginn so viel Hoffnung auf ein baldiges Ende der Unterdrückung durch die Nazis verbunden hatte.

Love
Markus

Great analogy, Markus!
I would try to translate it if you wanted me to, but I'm pretty exhausted right now and need a nap, and as far as I can tell, I'll be very busy for the next few days. I can offer to do it by Friday, if no one else has done it by then. Again: if you'd want me to do it.

OK, I'm now.

 

[Gadfly]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

Gadfly,

I may be misenterpreting you but -

Do you think that Scientlogy given to individuals individually (without any organizations to support them and follow their progress) can make them feel better?

Are you saying that Scn tech applied on the individual basis can make someone better?

I am saying that certain OTHER people, NOT ME, most certainly feel that applications of Scientology can and do make them "feel better".

How am I in any position to dispute that? :confused2:

Should I deputize myself as the newest version of the "thought police" and tell them in no uncertain terms that they are WRONG? That I know more about what makes them feel good than they do??????

Christ All Mighty, live your OWN life, and let others live theirs (as LONG AS THEY DON'T HURT ANYBODY).

We all agree on the MANY SEVERE flaws ands faults of the Church of Scientology. Yes? No? There are very many and some are quite severe.

Target One: Help THAT collapse.

That is no small job. After that, we can then re-evaluate what is left and what else might THEN need attention.

I don't CARE about what most people do in the FZ. They surely, for the most part, don't HURT anybody. Go after the obvious version of Scientology that DOES hurt people - the official Church of Scientology.

 

[Markus]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

I am saying that certain OTHER people, NOT ME, most certainly feel that applications of Scientology can and do make them "feel better".

How am I in any position to dispute that? :confused2:

Should I deputize myself as the newest version of the "thought police" and tell them in no uncertain terms that they are WRONG? That I know more about what makes them feel good than they do??????

Christ All Mighty, live your OWN life, and let others live theirs (as LONG AS THEY DON'T HURT ANYBODY).

We all agree on the MANY SEVERE flaws ands faults of the Church of Scientology. Yes? No? There are very many and some are quite severe.

Target One: Help THAT collapse.

That is no small job. After that, we can then re-evaluate what is left and what else might THEN need attention.

I don't CARE about what most people do in the FZ. They surely, for the most part, don't HURT anybody. Go after the obvious version of Scientology that DOES hurt people - the official Church of Scientology.

Hubbard is hurting people in the Church of Scientology AND outside of the organization. His teachings and Auditing are not working.
This is what I have observed after being more that 30 years in the CoS and in contact with his teachings and people who have fallen for his trap.

Love
Markus

 

[Gadfly]

Re: My message to all Tech believers on this board: Don't save me! Don't you dare...

Hubbard is hurting people in the Church of Scientology AND outside of the organization. His teachings and Auditing are not working.
This is what I have observed after being more that 30 years in the CoS and in contact with his teachings and people who have fallen for his trap.

Love
Markus

Well, maybe we agree to disagree? Because, I do not at all see the "harm" you talk about outside the organization, other than cases of people who are free to believe and become trapped by whatever sytem of beliefs they want to - whether that be Christianity, Islam, Judaism, a philosophy of personal self-aggrandizement, or one of any millions of possible paths that people can take that act to "entrap" and harm them by their own stupid beliefs.

Please give me a real example or two of instances where some individual well OUTSIDE the Church of Scientology is being or has been "harmed by Hubbard". You say you were in the C of S for 30 years. THAT environment is far different from the Free Zone. What are you actual experiences with real people in the loving-breathing Free Zone?

Please, convince me that your view is not based primarily on dub-in. It may not be, but until I get a few REAL examples, I simply cannot know.