My name is Doug Parent I am an Independent Scientologist

AnonKat

Crusader
I'm not sure it's just an FZ/Indie line. By 82, he was in very rough shape and DM had already taken over. You can check with Larry Brennan on that. It's not that I don't think that Hubbard was not capable of doing something like that, it's just that the facts do not indicate it. DM was taking over and was flexing his muscles.

'82 first stroke ? What month was that ?
 

Veda

Sponsor
From Larry Brennan:

"There was a real secret body of people directly run by Hubbard."

(Press "Control" and then "F" to find key words or dates, such as 1983.)

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=90246&postcount=1

From a 1986 interview of Martin Samuels, former Mission Holder, and founder of the Delphian School, from the 'Reflections' chapter of the book, 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?' http://www.amazon.com/reader/0942637577?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib_dp_pt :

"Hubbard operated according to a couple of key patterns.

"The first pattern involved basically decent well intentioned people... no one was able to rise in the organization to a point of any real proximity to him, without being attacked and vilified...

"And of course the next person thinks he or she is immune. Of course, now Hubbard is dead, so we won't see that pattern particularly repeated, except inasmuch as we'll see the Church hierarchy emulate and carry that pattern forward.

"The next pattern: It's reap and rape. Hubbard would let the reins loose. He'd let people believe they really could get on with it... He'd let people believe they really could prosper to the full extent of their own ability, and enjoy the fruits of their labor.

"And, with that kind of freedom, prosperity does occur, Inevitably, though, he'd come along and rape and pillage and rip off and take what had been produced. The most dramatic example of this was '82, '83, when he 'raped' his most decent people in management along with the mission holders, and looted the entire mission network.

"And look at this pattern... He surrounded himself with absolute hooligans as 'managers'; guys who beat the shit out of people. This man, who 'is this OT, the author of Science of Survival, completely able to predict human behavior', surrounded himself with ruthless people - like Miscavige - who got there because they emulated Hubbard's savagery. They emulated his total willingness to completely break, use, and discard another person.

"And then after their hands were so bloody - and the only reason their hands were bloody was that they were doing what Hubbard wanted - when it finally started to get to the point where it couldn't be tolerated by people anymore, Hubbard wiped them out. Then he said. 'My God! I didn't know!' Scapegoat. He even did that to his own wife, who went to jail in his place...

"But the thing that's amazing, and to me terrifying, is the characteristic of the mind, my mind, your mind, and apparently many other people's minds, where I could buy this horseshit, where I could participate in it."


Jesse Prince, Legal Declaration, 1999: http://lermanet.com/reference/Jesse2inWoller.htm
 

AnonKat

Crusader
As I recall, by the time David Mayo had been fired by Hubbard (who felt he was siding with the mission holders), all the major changes to the Grade Chart (PP, R6ew, CC/Dianetic Clear, 1978/79) and the OT levels, above 3 (New OT 4,5,6,7, in 1979/1980), were made. According to Mayo, they were made by Hubbard. Hubbard was also behind the 1982 looting of the Missions. Even if the Hubbard-was-in-a-coma,-etc.-after-1980 FZ/Indy-SCN PR line is accepted, you're still stuck with Hubbard butchering the middle of the Grade Chart (1978/1979). How Marty&Mike address these issues, I'm not sure.

If you post this opinion than you have to go by Mayo himself and you will see the comm line between them was being fucked up.

http://www.freezone.de/english/reports/e_mayo01.htm

It starts with the re-opening of a comm line from LRH to and from CMO INT and others in late 1981 after a period of almost two years of little to no comm from (or to) LRH (from Feb '80 to Sept '81). Unfortunately, although the comm line was re-opened in late '81, it was a very limited comm line in that all communications travelled through Annie Broeker, Pat Broeker to David Miscavige and back up in reverse order. Pat and Annie were living with LRH and David Miscavige was living primarily at CMO INT. Other than Pat and Annie, no one, including Miscavige, knew of LRH's location. Miscavige would receive a phone call from Pat Broeker and then would go to a restaurant or parking lot and meet Pat Broeker to pass the mail. Thus, there was no way for any comm to get to LRH without it going through those persons.

I was one of four people who originally received and sent comm via that line in Sept/Oct '81, these comms from LRH and to LRH were technical.

In late '81 (about November), LRH sent down orders to CMO INT to collect up and send him data on the state of the orgs and Scn internationally. The data he asked for was very comprehensive and took about two weeks for the FB (Flag Bureaux) to collect and send to CMO INT for relay to LRH! Then an evolution began at CMO INT of rewriting/retyping all these reports to omit and add data so as to make things appear to be much better than was the actual truth. I was horrified that this was being done and the extent to which it was being done and particularly at the intention to deceive LRH into thinking that things in Scn were much better than they were. I first discovered this when one of the reports that I had written to LRH came back to me to sign after having been re-written. I then found out that all three of the reports I had written had been or were being re-written so as to grossly falsify them. I had carbons of the originals of these reports and began to argue with those concerned about the re-writing of these reports on the grounds that I insisted that LRH should be truly informed of the actual conditions existing in Scn internationally.

Acording to Mayo himself Hubbard was fed lies through doctored reports going up the lines.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Do a search on, "insatiable lust for power and money" in this interview. Mayo was sitting right next to the guy.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/mayo.htm

I'm really not interested in debating about Hubbard-in-coma, etc.

Why didn't Hubbard pick up a telephone and call Mayo? Oh, that's right, the coma.

It never ends, and I'd still be arguing with Ron's Orgers, who think that the Hubbard-thetan beamed up to the Mother-ship in 1980, leaving his body to be run by an impostor.

Hubbard didn't care. He wanted to avoid subpoenas and to get the money for his monument building.
 

AnonKat

Crusader
Yes the Coma Crap is Crap but what about what I posted in response before this post.

Do a search on, "insatiable lust for power and money" in this interview. Mayo was sitting right next to the guy.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/mayo.htm

I'm really not interested in debating about Hubbard-in-coma, etc.

Why didn't Hubbard pick up a telephone and call Mayo? Oh, that's right, the coma.

It never ends, and I'd still be arguing with Ron's Orgers, who think that the Hubbard-thetan beamed up to the Mother-ship in 1980, leaving his body to be run by an impostor.

Hubbard didn't care. He wanted to avoid subpoenas and to get the money for his monument building.
 

riptide

Patron with Honors
Hubbard didn't care. He wanted to avoid subpoenas and to get the money for his monument building.

:dieslaughing: That may be entirely possible by that time. Obviously the seeds for trouble were sown perhaps a long time prior to the train leaving the tracks.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Yes the Coma Crap is Crap but what about what I posted in response before this post.

What about it?

Look at the patterns, at all the available information. Connect the dots as best you can, and you decide.

The date you gave was late 1981. Is that to be the date when Hubbard was cut off? Then, the changes that were made to the Grade Chart had already occurred.

So what's the issue? Looting of the missions in '82? (See Jesse Prince doc., Corydon's book, other sources.)

Selective looting of individual missions occurred before '82. Before 1980.

There's nothing strange about people around Hubbard not wanting Hubbard to become angry and connect the reason for the anger with them.

If Hubbard, the OT, had cared, he would have picked up a phone and called Mayo, just as could have called the mission holders.

Pierre Ethier has Hubbard completing New OT 8 in 1983, but Hubbard couldn't also have called people on the phone?

Hubbard had access to state of the art audio/video equipment, but he couldn't make a video of himself?

Hubbard couldn't get in car and drive, or have another drive him, to any location he pleased?

He wasn't that ill.

He could have done any of these things.

He chose to remain in hiding and count his money.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
What about it?

Look at the patterns, at all the available information. Connect the dots as best you can, and you decide.

The date you gave was late 1981. Is that to be the date when Hubbard was cut off? Then, the changes that were made to the Grade Chart had already occurred.

So what's the issue? Looting of the missions in '82? (See Jesse Prince doc., Corydon's book, other sources.)

Selective looting of individual missions occurred before '82. Before 1980.

There's nothing strange about people around Hubbard not wanting Hubbard to become angry and connect the reason for the anger with them.

If Hubbard, the OT, had cared, he would have picked up a phone and called Mayo, just as could have called the mission holders.

Pierre Ethier has Hubbard completing New OT 8 in 1983, but Hubbard couldn't also have called people on the phone?

Hubbard had access to state of the art audio/video equipment, but he couldn't make a video of himself?

Hubbard couldn't get in car and drive, or have another drive him, to any location he pleased?

He wasn't that ill.

He could have done any of these things.

He chose to remain in hiding and count his money.

Yep to all the above.:thumbsup::yes:

Face:)
 

riptide

Patron with Honors
As I recall, by the time David Mayo had been fired by Hubbard (who felt he was siding with the mission holders), all the major changes to the Grade Chart (PP, R6ew, CC/Dianetic Clear, 1978/79) and the OT levels, above 3 (New OT 4,5,6,7, in 1979/1980), were made. According to Mayo, they were made by Hubbard. Hubbard was also behind the 1982 looting of the Missions. Even if the Hubbard-was-in-a-coma,-etc.-after-1980 FZ/Indy-SCN PR line is accepted, you're still stuck with Hubbard butchering the middle of the Grade Chart (1978/1979). How Marty&Mike address these issues, I'm not sure.

I have it from a friend that was not too far removed from Mayo that Miscavige was monkeying around with upper level materials and how it was bundled into smaller chunks for reasons having to do with charging more $.

None of this can be verified but it makes for good party conversation!
 

riptide

Patron with Honors
Congratulations Doug. I'm glad that you were able to get your money back. I know what you mean about some of the auditing having been good and valuable. I was never able to sort it out well enough to play in that sandbox any more, but I'm glad you've found something that works for you.

Good luck!
-TL

Thanks TL. I've gotten some real gains while I was in and since leaving I've had some good auditing to clean up garbage that was part and parcel to dealing with the cult. The longer I am out and continue to process and sift through it, the more obvious how slanted it was. Not sure I could have done it without other people's input, help, information and friendship. Many people here have been a part of it. Most of all, my Independent auditor has played a big part in my moving forward and I am grateful.
 

Veda

Sponsor
I'm glad you had review auditing that straightened things out for you. Going into session with someone who's a good auditor, and addressing past "loose ends," etc. can be very helpful.

I'm sure you've seen this before, but I place it here, as it's someting I recommend for those attempting to sort out the subject. It features multiple links, each with additional information. Contrary to first appearances, it's not all negative, and the sections on "White Scientology" and "auditing" could be expanded to provide a more comprehensive look.

Just in case you haven't had the opportunity, or inclination, to check it out, here it is: http://exscn.net/content/view/178/105

For the benefit of anyone who might misunderstand Veda's remark, it does not refer to the satire of the popular "The Onion" website. It refers to the Scientological Onion, as described by Brian Ambry in his BRAINWASHING MANUAL PARALLELS IN SCIENTOLOGY.

The link is to a 97 page PDF (only 700KB). The Onion bit starts on page 17. It is VERY well worth reading. I've copied in the headings and sub-heads from the index. I haven't reformatted them beyond some bolding, but it should make sense.


The Layers of The "Scientological Onion" 17

Brainwashing Manual Parallels in Modern Scientology 19

Correspondences between the Brainwashing Manual and the Battle Tactics policy
On “Survival”
On Surviving the Atomic Bomb
On an individual Scientologist influencing leaders
Scientology is devious by design

Front Groups - Layer Zero of the “Scientological Onion.” 20

“It is not necessary that the term ‘Communism’ [Scientology] be applied at first…”

Layer One - The publicized portion of Scientology 23

“White Scientology”
Scenario: (An application of “White Scientology”)
“By reason alone”
Auditing

Descending into Layer Two of the “Onion”: The “In-Organization” Strata 27

“…[Scientology] under the guise of [‘White Scientology’]…”
Exploitation of the process of abreaction
Playing one thing off another or “counter-playing”
“Loaded language”: the seemingly enlightened “counter-played” with the manipulative
Tone 4, “entheta,” “theta,” Suppressive Person
The Thought Limiting clichés of Scientology
Publicized, “In-organization” and Confidential Scientology “Ethics”
“…aligning the individual against the desire not to conform…”
Side effects of “critical thoughts”
Dominion over the loyalties of individuals

Layer Three of the “Onion”: The Confidential “Upper Levels” of the “Bridge to Total Freedom” 33

“…avoid the understanding of the layman…”
Highest of the “upper levels” must remain a mystery to the membership
Operating Thetan or O.T.
Aleister Crowley, Head of the O.T.O.
O.T. III, The “Wall of Fire” into which Hubbard “took the plunge” to save Mankind
Exploitation of the paranormal

Layer Four: “…a well trained individual who serves in complete obedience…”
The Sea Organization, the Rehabilitation Project Force, and the Five Card System 36

The Sea Organization: “Custodians of the O.T. Levels”
“…the only loyalty which should exist… is to the State [Scientology].”
Sea Org Ethics under Commodore Hubbard on the Flagship
“Refusal to let them sleep over many days…”
The Rehabilitation Project Force
“Filthy food, little sleep, nearly untenable quarters…”
“…the first loyalty [to himself]… is destroyed…”
“Degradation and conquest…”
The children’s and teenagers’ RPF
“A certain amount of fear…”
The RPF’s RPF
The Five Card “Team Share” System
“The technologies of psychopolitics…”

Layer Five: Confidential Scientology Policy and Tech for “handling” uncooperative outsiders 46
The Fair Game policy and “philosophy”
“…find or manufacture enough threat…”
“Direct the attention of the authorities…”
Scientology’s unscrupulous use of the legal system
“We will no longer put up with our religion being criticized…”
Discourage inquiry
Defamatory data on file; “Culling”: Searching “religious confessional” (auditing) files for embarrassing or intimidating items
Background: The Commodore’s Intelligence Network
The policy of covert attack and publicized PR “defense lines”
Scientology’s Multi-layered Public Relations tech
Scientology Intelligence tech
Data collecting, and Attack or “support” Intelligence
Creating incidents that reflect badly on others
“Data needed by Ops on each located who”
Attack or “support” Intelligence - The Covert Ops study course and checklist
“Persons in his vicinity to whom he is emotionally involved…”
Coerce them into signing prepared “retractions” or “confessions”
Plenty of bogus “documentation”
One justification for unscrupulous covert methods
Treatment of VIPs and celebrities
Goal of talking over “mental health” and “political guidance”
Full knowledge of Intelligence tech must be denied to the general membership
“Deception, chicanery, lying, manipulation and outright criminality”
“She over there, those pink legs sticking out, didn’t like me”
Scientologists believe in a planet-wide conspiracy against L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology
The Scientology Hierarchy

Layer Six: The Core of the “Scientological Onion” 69
“…virtually a pathological liar…egotism… lust for power, and vindictiveness…”
“We must be like the vine upon the tree…”
The elusive “1000 page” official L. Ron Hubbard biography
“It’s a trap not being able to prevaricate”
Conscience as an “impediment”
The L. Ron Hubbard Fan(atic) club


Paul

And it even has a happy ending:

"Epilogue
"Freeing the Positives


"....Examining and 'sorting out' the subject would be worthwhile task. Doing so would not only educate as to the details of its dominant 'dark side', but would also make possible the freeing of what good may be found within it.

"Amazingly, the true positives of the subject can stand alone, and need not be sullied by any of this. Empirical truth and good ideas are funny that way."


Hope this helps.
 

smartone

My Own Boss
In November of 2006 I started researching the church on the Internet for the first time. I was reading for almost 36 hours straight and after a weeks time, I was quite sure I would never be the same again, nor would I have the same friends that I had known for the 30+ years I was in.

I have a story to tell like anyone, botched tech and ethics cycles, countless examples of insanity. Thousands upon thousands of wasted dollars for actions /services that were damaging or worthless.

But I spent a lot of money on good auditing too, and made consistent case gain for years. I do not regret getting in or getting out. However, I should have gotten out sooner when I smelled the coffee.

Anyway, this is all I plan to write for now. I decided that after I finally got all my money back from the *church* I would introduce myself formally. It has taken more than 2.5 years to get it all back. And after today, when the mailman arrived with my last check, I decided to complete this step.

I want to send a message to many people who know me. The tech in the Independent field is MUCH BETTER and MUCH CHEAPER. There are important things that church management has been trying to hide from public and staff for years. And they have been failing. This is the ONLY REASON why the church is being attacked.

I'm talking HUGE witholds. If you have not done your due diligence, to sort out for yourself why the church is being attacked, I highly recommend it.



:wave: Welcome Doug. Good post and congratulations on getting all your money back. Welcome to SANITY. Have a drink on me. :booze:
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
There are important things that church management has been trying to hide from public and staff for years. And they have been failing. This is the ONLY REASON why the church is being attacked.

I'm talking HUGE witholds. If you have not done your due diligence, to sort out for yourself why the church is being attacked, I highly recommend it.

If 'years' was 'decades' and we were talking about six of them... well, we'd be on the same page Doug. And, welcome aboard in any case, even if you now intend to retire. :)

Zinj
 

riptide

Patron with Honors
If 'years' was 'decades' and we were talking about six of them... well, we'd be on the same page Doug. And, welcome aboard in any case, even if you now intend to retire. :)

Zinj

Thanks Zinj. Your posts have been amusing/interesting to me for some time now, we may be more on the same page than you realize.
 

Magoo

Gold Meritorious Patron
Congrats on getting out, Doug and getting your money
back: Two HUGE steps!!! :happydance:

Hope you're enjoying life~!

Tory/Magoo
 

riptide

Patron with Honors
Welcome, and VWD!

I look forward to hearing more of your story, as\if you are so inclined.

I got in back in the early 70's. Did services mainly at the San Diego Org, and Celebrity Center in the 80's. Being utilized as a musician, I was in close proximity to many artists in many corners high and low within the organization. I was asked to replace Danny Keough on bass in the Freewinds band after his wife at the time (Lisa Marie) was having their first child.

I joined the band and worked on the ship for almost two years. It was a great experience, but it had it's low points as well. I was able to witness much brutality that manifested mainly when Miscavige was onboard.

I was left with a bad taste in my mouth and when I left the ship I was more or less done with Scientology. Being close to the Sea Org during that period and at that level was a very interesting cultural experience. In my opinion, the Sea Org is a cult. The further you are away from it, the more Scientology appears to resemble what the subject is supposedly about.

One more thing, as a result of my posting on ESMB I was reunited with a very very dear old friend today and we had a wonderful 3 hour phone chat. This person had been lost to me until just today.
I love you and have missed you and am so happy we are back in touch! You are a shining light my dear!
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
I joined the band and worked on the ship for almost two years. It was a great experience, but it had it's low points as well. I was able to witness much brutality that manifested mainly when Miscavige was onboard.

Any children placed for days on end in a chain locker? Any mysterious suicides? Did scantily clad pubescent girls carry around ashtrays? Oh, hang on . . . wrong era.
 
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