My past involvemen with Scn: Hindsight is 20/20

[Claire Swazey]

I wish Lisa McPherson were here to say the same.

I wish people like Hanna & Larry who went through years of chemical imbalance while in scn could say the same - or even some people who post here that agreed to go off their meds with serious consquences. And how many others ?

While scn didn't "ruin" me personally I feel one might want to look at a somewhat larger picture of what happens to those around them, too. Can we honestly say we saw no one harmed? I can't... maybe some can say that with a straight face.

Even if one can't do that.. one might want to take a look at what is involved in plowing around in the mind of another under the guise of "religion" sans any documented proof of being able to do any good - or really repair what one inadvertly stirs up. Would it be fine if, say, Methodists did the same kind of stuff scn does and called it their right to "religious freedom"?

I'd have to say there is a bigger picture than the personal experience any one did - or didn't have - in or with scn.

Some people go through a war with no ill effects. Does that mean war is OK for everybody?

Of course it isn't, and I get what you're saying. I think the cult is a toxic organization.

Where I was going with this is that everyone has individual ramification and consequences on this stuff and the way that it varies from person to person interests me.

 

[Claire Swazey]

^^^^ Exactly !

And, gosh, I surely do hope your post is enough on topic of the thread for you not have to reminded to stay within the strict confines laid out by the OP ( that all MUST follow? )

Nah. It's just that if I'm going to have a discussion with someone on and about the My past involvement with Scn: Hindsight is 20/20 thread, then it's going to be something pertaining to that particular thread as opposed to, say, a completely different thread and what kind of person I am and that sort of thing. AT seems to have grasped that just fine and I enjoyed reading and responding to his post, which raised valid points, as he often does.

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Of course it isn't, and I get what you're saying. I think the cult is a toxic organization.

Where I was going with this is that everyone has individual ramification and consequences on this stuff and the way that it varies from person to person interests me.

Oh, I really do understand what you are saying. I'm just trying to point out some others spent a fortune, had their families destroyed, suffered health wise, etc, and some like Lisa McPherson & Ewe ( plus many others ) died.

Reminds me somewhat of a divorce.... sometimes one parent comes out OK but the other parent, all the kids, and most of the extended family on both sides get hurt - sometimes very badly.

 

[crm1978]

Everyones personal involvements were different and the harm level depends on how deep or how long they were in.Simply put a lot of people are dead like Lisa Mcpherson a lot of people lose every penny they have a lot of people waste years or decades working on staff many people lose their family connections.All in all the cult is evil and destructive and the world would be better off if Hubbard stuck to writing bad sci-fi

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... I wouldn't exactly call Matt Parker and Trey Stone "influenced" by Scientology. ...

They never knew the man. Weren't colleagues and friends of his. Nor did they ever routinely engage in socializing with him in their homes. Nor apparently sleep with his wife either. (Actually it was Hubbard, and there wasn't much sleeping. Heinlein apparently didn't hold a grudge as it was somewhat of an 'open' relationship. He dumped the wife though.)

Heinlein & Hubbard were friends and associates for several years. Unlike the South Park Twins, Heinlein knew Hubbard personally.


Mark A. Baker

 

[DoneDeal]

They never knew the man. Weren't colleagues and friends of his. Nor did they ever routinely engage in socializing with him in their homes. Nor apparently sleep with his wife either. (Actually it was Hubbard, and there wasn't much sleeping. Heinlein apparently didn't hold a grudge as it was somewhat of an 'open' relationship. He dumped the wife though.)

Heinlein & Hubbard were friends and associates for several years. Unlike the South Park Twins, Heinlein knew Hubbard personally.


Mark A. Baker

associates? how?

You keep implying things....bring it on..your proof. Maybe I'm new and need to know.

Must be some other new people in here too. You wouldn't want a new person swimming in confusion and unable reach a conclusion while they need get on with real life would you?

 

[SpecialFrog]

They never knew the man. Weren't colleagues and friends of his. Nor did they ever routinely engage in socializing with him in their homes. Nor apparently sleep with his wife either

Is having Hubbard sleep with your wife part of the practice of Scientology? Again, having a connection to Hubbard himself, particularly before he'd even started Scientology, does not mean that your work is influenced by Scientology.

As for Matt Stone and Trey Parker, who is to say they haven't met and been influenced by a re-incarnated Hubbard. Ever seen Kyle with his hat off?

 

[DoneDeal]

associates? how?

You keep implying things....bring it on..your proof. Maybe I'm new and need to know.

Must be some other new people in here too. You wouldn't want a new person swimming in confusion and unable reach a conclusion while they need get on with real life would you?

I'll answer my own question.
The deal with the us humans is we get on sputs of creativity...like looney tunes and rock and roll...
include in that sci fi......and the vikings...and the "let's build pyramids" and etc etc....we really are pretty cool.

Obviously ron knew Robert...and Robert knew ron....lol. But that does not give any credibility to the scn subject.

Mark...my argument with you is simple. Be careful with how you promote scn....don't name drop. ron did that in the forward to his Science of Survival book. Nasty book.

 

[Auditor's Toad]

<snip>
Be careful with how you promote scn....
<snip>

Ah, my good man, some are apparently compelled to promote $cn as best they can because they are still obviously unaware of the apparent folly others see in their life devotion to being trapped in awe of Mankinds Greatest Friend , L Ron Hubbard.

For some that selling of their soul so dirt cheap is going to be their best achievement of their life, so, let 'em revel in it while it lasts.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... Obviously ron knew Robert...and Robert knew ron....lol. But that does not give any credibility to the scn subject.

Nor have I suggested it did. You assume too much.


Mark A. Baker

 

[DoneDeal]

Nor have I suggested it did. You assume too much.


Mark A. Baker

Right on man.

Well you know what they say about assuming things....

oh...you haven't supplied any proof yet of your opinion.

If you'd just admit it's an opinion not based on any facts would suffice

You know...like the cult deal where we ran around saying things to convince others we we're right.

Come on...say it outloud....you were wrong and telling some tall tale designed to fool someone else.
.
I certainly did that myself. I was one of them fools. No hiding it.

 

[Man de la Mancha]

To Ms. Swazey:

I know that, as a Buddhist, "truth" is of tantmount importance to you. I, for one, appreciate your unwillingness to compromise your truth by blindly agreeing with the angry mob. I am happy for you that Scientology didn't ruin your life. It can't be any fun going through life angry about the past, and I hope everyone here will one day find peace as you have.

What type of Buddhism do you practice? I went to a few services years ago at the "Nichirin Daishonin" Buddhist temple. The friend who took me has a sister in Chicago who was very influential in the church. His last name is Laubel, but his sister may have a different name from marriage (they're from Pittsburgh PA originally).

 

[Auditor's Toad]

They never knew the man. Weren't colleagues and friends of his. <snip>
Mark A. Baker

Unless I am mistaken - and I well could be - you didn't know Hubbard, weren't a colleague, or a friend of his....or anything like that.

But....where ( are ) you influenced by Hubbard?

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... If you'd just admit it's an opinion not based on any facts would suffice. ...

And why should I do that? It's a direct conclusion based on the words specifically written by Robert Heinlein in his later novels. There is nothing subtle about it. His references are actually quite humorous.

Matthew 13:13

Go off and re-read it yourself, evidently you missed it the first time. I've given you more than enough information that you should be able to find the references. This is your 'issue', not mine. So go away and let Fluff's thread get back on topic.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Unless I am mistaken - and I well could be - you didn't know Hubbard, weren't a colleague, or a friend of his....or anything like that.

But....where ( are ) you influenced by Hubbard?

You really do make the stupidest remarks, Toad.

But then again, you spent a great deal longer as a loyal member of hubbard's cult then I ever even considered doing.


Mark A. Baker

 

[DoneDeal]

You really do make the stupidest remarks, Toad.

But then again, you spent a great deal longer as a loyal member of hubbard's cult then I ever even considered doing.


Mark A. Baker

gottcha.

See how you are? Pile of attitude. Who isn't? See how we all are?

oh..where's that proof on the Heinlein/ron deal thing we were talking about?

 

[Rene Descartes]

from:
http://www.zenzoneforum.com/threads/18731-Robert-Heinlein-An-extraordinary-American

It says "friend" but after reading below one might get the idea that Heinlein was applying some kind of 20/20 hindsight, sort of what this thread is about
(Well I had to find some way to justify being able to get this into the thread and at the same time show my longtime friend Claire that I am trying to change the subject.)

Speaking of 20/20 Hindsight, I wonder if Heinlein was thinking "with "friends" like Hubbard who needs enemas"?

===============
Heinlien was a friend of L. Ron Hubbard --

Letter: Robert Heinlein to John Arwine (10 May 1946)
Source: The Heinlein Archives (CORR220-3.pdf)
Re: Vida Jameson1, Jack Parsons, Sara Northrup,
L. Ron Hubbard. (Relevant sections paraphrased)

Heinlein wrote that he and his wife had hoped to hear more about what Hubbard was doing in New York, and that he didn’t understand Hubbard’s current activities. Heinlein said he was considerably disturbed on Hubbard’s account, thought Hubbard wasn’t doing himself any good, and that Hubbard appeared to be on some sort of a “Big Operator tear,” not getting straightened out or re-established in his writing.

Heinlein wrote that because he introduced Hubbard to Arwine he felt “obligated” to advise Arwine not to get his “affairs tied in” with Hubbard at all and to keep Hubbard “at arm’s length.” Heinlein surmised that Hubbard had probably told Arwine about the “involved business deals” in which he was engaged with “Jack Parsons and Betty.” Heinlein wrote that they might “make a lot of money,” but that he had “no taste for business enterprises of this type.” Heinlein said he was offering this free advice to Arwine because he’d heard that Hubbard and Sarah could be “returning to New York soon,” and that Heinlein would have advised Arwine earlier if he’d known they “were going to New York the first time.”

Heinlein said he had “no reason to be sore at Ron” and had no basis “to condemn his present actions,” but Hubbard’s conduct worried him. Heinlein cautioned Arwine that he could easily find himself “in some sort of a jam” if he let Hubbard “get too close to him.”

MORE- http://blacklies.xenu.ca/archives/3476

 

[DoneDeal]

'issue'[/I], not mine. So go away and let Fluff's thread get back on topic.

Mark A. Baker

The lies I was told by scn'ist's were the reasons I got involved. But to be honest...like I said above...I was well into elsewhereness prior to my meeting with scn.

I'm a crackpot, always have been, probably always will be...but I keep digging deeper for some reason....

Is that on topic enough for you?

so...proof on the Heinlein/ron influence? got it yet?

 

[Mick Wenlock]

They never knew the man. Weren't colleagues and friends of his. Nor did they ever routinely engage in socializing with him in their homes. Nor apparently sleep with his wife either. (Actually it was Hubbard, and there wasn't much sleeping. Heinlein apparently didn't hold a grudge as it was somewhat of an 'open' relationship. He dumped the wife though.)

Heinlein & Hubbard were friends and associates for several years. Unlike the South Park Twins, Heinlein knew Hubbard personally.


Mark A. Baker

It would appear that in knowing Hubbard, Heinlein wasn't much in the way of being a friend. I have asked before (including the messengers from Hubbard's time) for some specific instances of friendship between the two.

Nuffink.

It is sobering to realize that Hubbard had NO close friends.

Think about that - most people who come out of the military at least have a couple of buddies that they meet up regularly with, exchange cards etc etc. Here was "mankind's best friend" and, apparently, apart from worshippers, he had no friends at all.

 

[DoneDeal]

It would appear that in knowing Hubbard, Heinlein wasn't much in the way of being a friend. I have asked before (including the messengers from Hubbard's time) for some specific instances of friendship between the two.

Nuffink.

It is sobering to realize that Hubbard had NO close friends.

Think about that - most people who come out of the military at least have a couple of buddies that they meet up regularly with, exchange cards etc etc. Here was "mankind's best friend" and, apparently, apart from worshippers, he had no friends at all.

Thank you for that information.