My past involvemen with Scn: Hindsight is 20/20

[Lone Star]

Yeah there thats anotehr reason why I am glad my hindsight is 20/20

I hated clay demos.

It's like this.

I love sports. I play well or rather used to prior to the aging process having put me into a new "echelon". But I can still catch a ball and hit it a mile.

But the last thing I would want to do is clay demo these sports. I son't want to clay demo anything.

Clay demos do nto add mass. They give me mass

Rd00

I hated clay demos too. "They gave me Mass" is a great line.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Okay. I agree that it's not bad to ask for proof. ...

And appropriate references were provided. Anyone interested is free to look them up on their own time.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Claire Swazey]

I hated clay demos at first. This went away after I took courses that required really elaborate immense ones. Was ok then. I don't know how much or little it helped me learn. My guess is that it probably helped to a degree.

Here's a study technique that isn't a Scn one:

Teach a class in the area you're studying. If you can do that properly, you know your stuff. John learned that in college and it works.

So there're other ways to learn.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I hated clay demos at first. This went away after I took courses that required really elaborate immense ones. Was ok then. I don't know how much or little it helped me learn. My guess is that it probably helped to a degree. ...

I found that clay demos were most beneficial at identifying aspects of a concept for which I has some type of internal or unconscious 'block'. The ability to do a clay demo easily for me isn't so much a way of understanding a concept as it is of recognizing where individual 'baggage' may be holding me back from an easy familiarity with the concept.


Mark A. Baker

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I hated clay demos at first. This went away after I took courses that required really elaborate immense ones. Was ok then. I don't know how much or little it helped me learn. My guess is that it probably helped to a degree.

Here's a study technique that isn't a Scn one:

Teach a class in the area you're studying. If you can do that properly, you know your stuff. John learned that in college and it works.

So there're other ways to learn.

Here is the problem with Clay Demos.

They can just as easily lead to misunderstanding as to understanding. It depends on what you are being asked to clay demo.

Example: Checksheet calls for a clay demo of how to run L&N (What are you?) on a BT. Student meticulously creates an elaborate clay demonstration of how to do this. Except that student is, by doing so, actually insulating themselves in a delusional world by "working out in clay" how all of Hubbard's insanity is actually "true for me".

Another thing that strikes me about clay demos is this--If one objectively looks at all of the things on planet Earth that actually work (e.g. automobiles, refrigerators, Internet, airplanes, televisions, floor wax, aspirin, indoor plumbing, coffee makers, shoelaces, ice cube trays, lightbulbs, penicillin, et al...) not one of the people involved in any of those functional things ever once did a clay demo.

On the other hand, the dysfunctional liar known as L. Ron Hubbard used the clay demo "tech" to market and sell an imaginary "bridge to total freedom" that had no other function than the "release" of money from duped marks.

Conclusion: The planet doesn't need clay demos.

 

[Rene Descartes]

I hated clay demos at first. This went away after I took courses that required really elaborate immense ones. Was ok then. I don't know how much or little it helped me learn. My guess is that it probably helped to a degree.

Here's a study technique that isn't a Scn one:

Teach a class in the area you're studying. If you can do that properly, you know your stuff. John learned that in college and it works.

So there're other ways to learn.

Absolutely claire, or tutor or help a student.

Immensely adds to one's understanding.

Uh, by student I did not mean div 4 or div 6 student but then again you knew that hah hah.

Rd00

 

[Rene Descartes]

Here is the problem with Clay Demos.

They can just as easily lead to misunderstanding as to understanding. It depends on what you are being asked to clay demo.

Example: Checksheet calls for a clay demo of how to run L&N (What are you?) on a BT. Student meticulously creates an elaborate clay demonstration of how to do this. Except that student is, by doing so, actually insulating themselves in a delusional world by "working out in clay" how all of Hubbard's insanity is actually "true for me".

Another thing that strikes me about clay demos is this--If one objectively looks at all of the things on planet Earth that actually work (e.g. automobiles, refrigerators, Internet, airplanes, televisions, floor wax, aspirin, indoor plumbing, coffee makers, shoelaces, ice cube trays, lightbulbs, penicillin, et al...) not one of the people involved in any of those functional things ever once did a clay demo.

On the other hand, the dysfunctional liar known as L. Ron Hubbard used the clay demo "tech" to market and sell an imaginary "bridge to total freedom" that had no other function than the "release" of money from duped marks.

Conclusion: The planet doesn't need clay demos.

HH,

HUZZAH!!!

Good point! 20/20 hindsight is awesome.

And if I were a kool aid drinking clay demoer I would tell you that the reason they have not found a cure for cancer, multiple sclerosis, alzheimers, or parkinsons is because the researcher have not clay demoed it.

And I would also say that Schizophrenia cannot be clay demoed realistially because mental illness is a myth; this despite the fact that it should be easy to clay demo someone lovingly petting a dog and then grabbing an axe and hacking it to pieces.

Fortunately for myself I am not a kool aid drinking clay demoer so I will not tell you all of those things that I just told you - if that makes any sense.

Hmm I wonder if a student on the Science of Survival Basics can clay demo a 1.1 homosexual backstabbing an unsuspecting friend and their family after he has softened them up with a lots of propitiation.

That's why I am glad for 20/20 hindsight because I know that you know that we all know that clay demos are highly overated.

Rd00

 

[SomeGuy]

Conclusion: The planet doesn't need clay demos.

I disagree, some people are more tactile then they are visual. Specially with 3D concepts. It used to be awfully expensive to go from design to prototype if you machined it first, not so much any longer but they still do model out of clay.

Now if they'd just would get into the 21st century and throw their CADs into a 3 printer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ-aWFYT_SU

Conceptually you'd require a very large printer but think of the possibilities of making a working epoxy car!

 

[GreyLensman]

Now, isn't that an interesting question. Answer is no, I haven't. Well, Beck's music isn't bad. But for all the championing of the arts and pushing of arty celebs and all that, the cult hasn't really produced much along those lines. And some of what was done, wasn't really very good. I don't know if it's a question of demographics/ratio- like there's only so many Scn'ists and so only so many works would get created, or, more likely, with all the constant demands for time and money, who would have time to create anything?

And, of course, as I mentioned before, the tech doesn't deliver what's promised, nowhere near. Maybe a fraction.

When I see Scn'ists who are pretty good at the arts, it always seems to me that they already had those abilities and tendencies, before they got into Scn.

I'm reading a book called Sex With Kings now. It has some gorgeous art in it. A picture of an Irish girl sprawled on a couch. Every detail, every fold in the fabric- she looks like she could walk out of the painting and say hi. I would dearly love to take an art appreciation course. Checked into it years ago but there were no night courses.
Beauty is very important. One gets little of that, if any, in the cult.

Beck is in "Celeb Scientology". A different breed. Hell, Chick Corea got to play with Stanley Clarke and Lenny White and Al DiMeola earlier this year - I saw them in Clearwater (accidently parked right next to the Ft. Harrison van...) (no, I didn't key it - bad karma comes back). All of these guys were offlines and db and sp and yet Chick gets to do whatever the fuck he wants.

Celeb Scio is a different place.

I was told explicitly by an SO recruiter that I wasn't needed as an artist. There's not only no place for art, there is no need for art in Scientology, not really.

Hell, I joined staff to become an auditor and I didn't get trained unless I paid for it myself. I am an excellent natural auditor, and I train easily. Yet, on staff and available, I could not be allowed to make any progress.

The place is a cognitive dissonance par excellence. Unless your goal is to bleed cash onto the registrar's desk, you are really off purpose.

Appreciating art - look at art, online, find an artist you like and buy books about him. Go see him in a museum or gallery. There is so much access to really good stuff through the internet- http://www.googleartproject.com/

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Here's a couple of notes the church has up on one of the hubbard booksites.

Church letters

Judging by the content of the notes and data about their relationship published elsewhere, the notes seem likely to be authentic enough. Note though that this exchange would have been around the time Hubbard was working on "Battlefield Earth", a book for which Heinlein provided a jacket blurb. My bet is that lrh was fishing for a favor.

For anyone sufficiently interested the Heinlein Archives on line appear to have several references to Hubbard in their database. It seems to be a fee'd service. I'm not a subscriber, so I don't know what is there. Anyone interested in researching it would likely find some interesting tidbits.




I'd put it slightly differently. He seems to have a great facility for making friends. Quite a few people were friends of his over a very long time. Several remain loyal to him to this day. However, over time he betrayed anyone who stayed close or appeared as some sort of a threat. From afar it looks to have been the result of simple malice or other viciousness of character. However I strongly suspect that mental illness was a major factor in this clear discrepancy in his social behavior.

How any particular individual may choose to interpret those circumstances is up to them. I'm inclined to a somewhat compassionate view due to the probable mental illness. Of course, I never met the man and was never personally the target of his rage. It's also two different things entirely to have compassion for a mentally ill person versus being tolerant of the vicious or abusive conduct he may direct at others.


Mark A. Baker

Actually Mark - he had no friends. he had people who worshipped him - that's totally different. I did NOT say that there was no-one who liked him. He had plenty of those and who worship him to this day (after all we can look to the M&M board to see the self stroking worship group there) but friends?

Nope.

When he was on the lam from Morocco and went to New York - who did he hook up with? Which of his many friends? None. he took two acolytes with him.

When he felt he had to split from the Hot Springs - which of his friends... oh. None.

It's hard to be friends with people who think you are a god. And when he died he died as a lonely frightened old man - with no friends.

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Here is the problem with Clay Demos.

They can just as easily lead to misunderstanding as to understanding. It depends on what you are being asked to clay demo.

Example: Checksheet calls for a clay demo of how to run L&N (What are you?) on a BT. Student meticulously creates an elaborate clay demonstration of how to do this. Except that student is, by doing so, actually insulating themselves in a delusional world by "working out in clay" how all of Hubbard's insanity is actually "true for me".

Another thing that strikes me about clay demos is this--If one objectively looks at all of the things on planet Earth that actually work (e.g. automobiles, refrigerators, Internet, airplanes, televisions, floor wax, aspirin, indoor plumbing, coffee makers, shoelaces, ice cube trays, lightbulbs, penicillin, et al...) not one of the people involved in any of those functional things ever once did a clay demo.

On the other hand, the dysfunctional liar known as L. Ron Hubbard used the clay demo "tech" to market and sell an imaginary "bridge to total freedom" that had no other function than the "release" of money from duped marks.

Conclusion: The planet doesn't need clay demos.

Yeah, but, Mark A. Baker has posted he so does need clay demos.
So what does that tell every reader of this thread?

( There is only one person who'll miss how funny this is ! )

For the record : I have not looked up a word, done a demo, or - Gawd forbid - done a crap demo since leaving the cult. I'm still awake. People still come to me for help on various things although I'm a declared SP & will remain so forever.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Actually Mark - he had no friends.

That's a simplistic statement and from conversations I've had with some old timers definitely not true, Mick. I've met a few who had no illusions about hubbard, nor did they consider him to be at all a trustworthy person, but who still considered him in the light of friendship.

That is something I can understand & respect also. There are people who I know who can not be trusted but who I also care about and regard in friendship. Some of them are even active with the Co$.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Gadfly]

That's a simplistic statement and from conversations I've had with some old timers definitely not true, Mick. I've met a few who had no illusions about hubbard, nor did they consider him to be at all a trustworthy person, but who still considered him in the light of friendship.

That is something I can understand & respect also. There are people who I know who can not be trusted but who I also care about and regard in friendship. Some of them are even active with the Co$.

Mark A. Baker

Freindship is like so many other things in life. Like love for instance. If you think, feel and believe that you are in love, then you ARE "in love". There is no other criteria.

It is the same with "friendship". If you feel, think and believe that you are a friend to someone else, or that someone is a friend to you, then that is what is true. Sorry to pull out the "what is true for you" card, but in this case it does apply.

Perosnally I don't have the opinion that Hubbard had any ability or capability to "have real friendships", as he was an elitist snob who basically looked down on everybody else. To me, as I see it, he "used" people, and would "pretend" friendship (mock up affinity) whenever it served his purposes.

Hubbard was an extreme example of one who applies the data on BE-DO-HAVE. He would "be anything" (pretend, play a role, adopt a part), so as to GET WHATEVER HE WANTED (have). And, as far as the "do" part is concerned, he basically applied a strict version of Crowley's maxim, "Do as thou wilt" - no matter who it hurts, who one betrays, who one lies to, just as long as you "get the desired result". Tone 40, extreme dedication, perserverance, make it go right, go A to B, and ignore all of the many casualties that one leaves in the wake of that forward motion.

People who adhere to the maxim, "the ends justify the means", as did Hubbard and as do many Scientolgogists, change friendships just as others change their socks.

And, the "Man's Greatest Friend" line was a PR gimmick, and had no substance of truth.

Sure, Hubbard would "befriend" people as it served his purposes, but that is NOT the same thing as genuine friendship. Genuine friendship is sort of like genuine love, and the care and concern (and compassion) for the other people take seniority to ALL ELSE. Hubbard NEVER was able to extend uncononditional love or friendship to anybody. I doubt that he even understood the concepts.

His highest value was "purpose" - how ever he happened to define it on any given day.

The perfect example that displays Hubbard's way of dealing with "friends and loved ones" is how he threw his own wife Mary Sue under the bus to take the wrap for Operation Snow White. THAT behavior was typical of his entire life.

Hubbard was a scumbag of a human being. Pure and simple.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

HH,

HUZZAH!!!

Good point! 20/20 hindsight is awesome.

And if I were a kool aid drinking clay demoer I would tell you that the reason they have not found a cure for cancer, multiple sclerosis, alzheimers, or parkinsons is because the researcher have not clay demoed it.

And I would also say that Schizophrenia cannot be clay demoed realistially because mental illness is a myth; this despite the fact that it should be easy to clay demo someone lovingly petting a dog and then grabbing an axe and hacking it to pieces.

Fortunately for myself I am not a kool aid drinking clay demoer so I will not tell you all of those things that I just told you - if that makes any sense.

Hmm I wonder if a student on the Science of Survival Basics can clay demo a 1.1 homosexual backstabbing an unsuspecting friend and their family after he has softened them up with a lots of propitiation.

That's why I am glad for 20/20 hindsight because I know that you know that we all know that clay demos are highly overated.

Rd00

That was a uniquely cool post!

I tried to clay demo what you said, but my clay figurines kept removing their labels and asking me WTF I was doing playing with clay--when adults are supposed to be able to just read something and understand it perfectly well.

Everyone else's clay figurines talk to them, right?

 

[Rene Descartes]

Since we are on the subject of 20/20 hindsight...

Has ayone else here ever had a 20/20 "hindsight" cognition that it is not always a good good idea to lend money to another person on lines at the org, despite the fact that all these people are the most ethical group on the planet.

Caveat: Despite having to take a small loss for lending there have been a few individuals onlines that I could trust to the point of lending money to, in moderate amounts, primarily because I never had inordinate amounts to lend. You learn who these are as you move along. Plus you have to keep your underwriting limits in a range where they don't create FP problems for yourself.

Rd00

 

[Claire Swazey]

Re Friendship

Hi, Gaddy,

Just my two cents: One can think they are in love, and then, sure, they're in love. One can think one is a friend, of course. I will say this, though: if someone thinks they are a friend, it only means they have feelings of friendship. To be a friend, one has to BE a friend. If someone says they are a friend to someone else but the former acts in such a way that the latter feels is unsupportive, unpleasant, oh god, get away from me...then that person's not a friend to the other. He may want to be, he may think he is, but there's no friendship.

I used to be heavier. I had a friend at work named Lisa. Lisa was a petite very slender Asian woman. At some point, after about a year, she started sniping at me about my eating and weight. I pushed back and it went over about as well as it does here when I talk back. Lead balloon. Later, she left the company. She phoned one time, to a mutual friend, and heard I lost weight. THEN she wanted to talk to me. All she wanted to do was talk about my decrease in size. This was a false and fair weather friendsihip, which is no friendship. But did she have certain friendly feelings? Yes. Lisa wasn't the only false friend I've made but she's the best example of the maybe 3 or 4 or so I've made or of fairweather friends in general. Friendship's a two way street. Without mutuality, what you have are some friendly feelings here and there, even if the person says they are the other one's friend.

I just saw (and posted about on Facebook) a documentary about Aleister Crowley. He betrayed many many people. He did have maybe two or three long time long term friends. One was in the mountain climbing area of his life (Crowley was an incredibly accomplished active man, oddly enough, in other areas of life than just occultism) and the other was one he met in his occult practices. The former and he had a long time friendship though at some point there was a falling out and Crowley kind of dicked him over. The other one was someone whom Crowley had gone to great lenghts to help and protect. Very out of character cuz Crowley was a major shit. THAT was a real friendship.

I've no doubt that Hubbard hasd friendships during his life. Some of them may've been genuine and of long standing. I think a lot of them ended when Hubbard would have dicked them over. I know his last days - the last year or two of his life- were very bad and I think he had no friends there. But maybe there were one or two folks he hadn't really betrayed and who still liked him and would have been there for him had Hubbard's keepers not kept them away. (I'm one of those who think it likely that Hubbard was murdered).

 

[Claire Swazey]

Re Clay

Hoaxie's right: If you are clay demoing a concept and that concept is false or leaves something out or has anything wrong with it, then you dont learn anything,. You just get indoctrinated'.

I also liked Clay Table Auditing. It was really good. I think it's a great type of auditing. I think you could use it with other forms of counselling than just Scn.

Again, though, that's just my take on it.

 

[Rene Descartes]

Clay Table Auditing...

That's where say for example a kids iPad gets stolen so the C/S has the kid clay demo the theif running off with the kid's iPad and hopefully it "blows charge".

That's where say for example a wife's husband is shagging other women so the C/S has the wife make a clay table of the husband shagging other womem and hopefully it "blows the charge".

That's where say for example the Pope on a Rope beats the snot out a man in front of his girlfriend so the C/S has the girlfriend clay demo the Pope on a Rope kicking the snot out her boyfriend and hopefully it "blows charge".

I bet it puts someone exterior to the problem.

Okay okay I know my examples were extreme but if anyone here is upset they can always clay demo someone on the internet dishing out extreme examples of clay table auditing.

 

[Claire Swazey]

To be honest, I don't have a problem with auditing at all. I just don't. While I think it's nowhere near as effective as touted, I think it can sometimes help a person. You'll note I said "sometimes". There are times when it doesn't do much of anything.

It also can be abused. But then again, so can air and water.

I'm quite supportive of other people's desire to not obtain auditing and also to say they think it's crap. Always have been. I myself am doe with it, for the most part. I have zero regrets about ever having done it, in the past. But I know that others have different perspectives. And while I'm at it, I want to say that I don't just think that those other perspectives are only due to personal opinins. I think there are those for whom it's less effective or more effective than for others. Everyone has to find their own way.

I think that the clay table method is a good one, if one is going to get auditing.

 

[DoneDeal]

Okay. I agree that it's not bad to ask for proof. Insinuating that he's lying is over the top though. If anything it's just a difference of opinion, nothing more..

It's a lie of the church. They do that you know to fool people.

A difference of opinion? He read some chapters outta a few RAH's books and dubbed in his thinking...which is often going around in circles you might have noticed.

I myself fell for that tall tale of RAH being a grand buddy of ron....

But...I actually have some evidence that he wasn't. A couple...just a couple...and a couple isn't very much for being such an influenced pal.....from the book Grumbles From The Grave.

And I have no evidence that they were tight. They were in the same trade, that's all.

You told me above to re-read RAH's books to see if mark is right....ha....why would I do that....you read em...and dub in what you want.

I've read em...and I did fall for a similar thought...and I'm pissed at myself for it. I have a viewpoint now..that doesn't go round and round.

ok...so where's that soup....better be good.....