My story and the religion vs the management

Veda

Sponsor
Hmmm ... well, the communications he sent down during my early years in Scn were joyful, benevolent, felt right and correct - but, sometime in the late 70's all this paranoia started coming out - fear of enemies - the feeling that there were enemies everywhere - that there was an urgency to everything - that the world was going to collapse and Scientology lost - all the manifestations of someone going paranoid and psychotic.

Unfortunately, the negative traits were there as far back as 1938. They were present in the early and mid 1950s, and by 1965 were exploding like 4th of July firecrackers. We just didn't notice, looked the other way, or rationalized it.

Here's a new thread with a bunch of links that is worth looking over, IMO:

Page one: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=17195

Page two: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=397729
 

AnonSunshine

Patron with Honors
Welcome! Kjabut: :D
I must say to you that I do not see $cientology Management apart from the Scientology scriptures, which are all lies, plus lies in the application of tech.
To me the tech was not discovered by LRH, but he stole a lot of material from various sources and plagiarized them, stating he was the author. To begin with, he was not the author, and you can verify the sources in Arnie Lerma website. He copied a lot of material from William Sargent book. The auditing technique he stole from another person. :omg:
He lied, made the Credo of $cientologist, wrote way to happiness copying the 10 commandments, and varying it a little bit, and every thing he wrote is not practiced in the Cult. It is a facade.
To me the Cult should be dismantled by authorities, and David Miscavige, and his gang of sociopaths must be brought to justice for their crimes against humanity. They are tax exempt because they still playing the forged game that they are a religion; they know they are not.
 

Meccaanon

Patron
Hi;

I'm something of a lurker, never taken a Sci course but I have experienced a lot of Sci "culture" if you can call it that.

To OP I can say; I'm happy you had wins in Scientology. T

hat being said, it is a truism that any sort of the therapy works for some people. This is why in the actual history of mental health treatment, the most horrible and vile things were done to people, not because "psychs" are sadistic monsters as the CoS would like to believe. Because vile - horrible treatments worked some of the time. Scientology "treatment" works for some people some of the time. It does not (an cannot) work for all people all of the time.

Saying all of that, Scientology as a philosophy is counter to most basic Western thought and is incompatible with any social arrangement which cherishes individual thought and contribution. It is a top-down tyrannical organisation with a single individual who may not be questioned or criticized. Hubbard set this up. DM simply took the rein of power when he had an opportunity. He was created by Hubbard, a symptom of the problem.

Scientology can only save itself by doing some or all of the following.

It must give up KSW and roundly condemn it.

Scientology must depose it's upper management and adopt a board of directors with checks and balances.

Scientology must acknowledge the public record of Hubbard and stop creating fictitious biographys.

Scientology must stop all harassment against critics, "squirrels" and protesters (with the exception of prosecution of actual criminal activity as determined by non Sci criminal justice workers.)

The Sea Org must be dissolved or at least stripped of its powers.

The RPF must be abolished.

Most of it's literature must be removed from cannon.

All language that suggests scientific basis of Scientology must be expunged OR, scientific studys must be conducted by independent agencies and the results widely published.

I would say this is not an exhaustive list. :)

Scientology has exhibited a basic incompatibility with almost every society which hosts it. The only reason it survives is because most Western style societies are tolerant to new ideas. This tolerance is not without limits however and I'd say that the limit has been reached in this case.
 

Challenge

Silver Meritorious Patron
Hmmm ... well, the communications he sent down during my early years in Scn were joyful, benevolent, felt right and correct - but, sometime in the late 70's all this paranoia started coming out - fear of enemies - the feeling that there were enemies everywhere - that there was an urgency to everything - that the world was going to collapse and Scientology lost - all the manifestations of someone going paranoid and psychotic.

Hey there, kjabut. Didja ever read about LRH writing to the FBI and telling them that his wife and all his friends in his group were Communists? That was in the early 1950s.
Didja know that in Washington, D.C. at the then " Mother Church" there were maps on the wall showing escape routes for Scn'ists to use when the bombs hit? That was mid-50s.
He manifested Paranoia from the "git-go".
I did my levels in the late 60s. ( Clear # 2143), and I do agree that the "old OT levels" produced more "case gain" than does the "new" whatever.
Welcome to the board.

Challenge
 

kjabut

New Member
Thanks everyone!

I want ot thank all of you who have welcomed me to this forum.

To all of you who have commented on my post - Thanks for your insightful comments - I really appreciate all of them.

I am sure that LRH had mental problems long before they manifested to the point that the parishoners began to be affected personally by his insanities. I am also sure that there were lies all along and abuses all along.

Perhaps those of you who experienced Scn 40 + years ago will understand what I mean when I say that many of the parishoners during that time, in spite of any craziness going on behind the scene, were able to improve themselves by using or receiving many of the services being offered at the time. As I was not involved nor aware of the upper management, whatever craziness that was going on there was not apparent to those of us receiving services at Scn missions or orgs.

The original 'Grade Chart', which I completed, ended at OTVII. The OT levels of that chart from OTIV thru OTVII are no longer part of the current chart. Fortunatley, I was not subject to later changes, such as NOTS, the L Rundowns and the revised levels of OTIV thru VII (Which are not in any way similar to the originals.). I personally believe that the chart was changed when it became apparent that those who successfully completed the original chart no longer wanted further services because they had attained a state of awareness, ability and personal certainty of themselves as spritual beings, and there was nothing more that the church could offer them. By the time the chart was revised the church was already in the throes of insane management that was desperate to hang on to parishoners who no longer needed services. The stated reason for the changes to the chart was that 'the gradient of the original chart was too steep for parishoners to truely attain the benfits of each level above OTIII, so it needs to be altered to create a more gradual gradient to Full OT'. This was not true - I knew of many who had received the full benefits of the original chart. OTVII on the original chart was also called "Full OT VII" (Which meant that a being attaining this level had arrived at a point where he/she could further expand their abilities and awareness on their own, without the assistance of the church. They were no longer 'trapped in the physical universe'.)

I know that many commenters doubt the veracity of my statements regarding having attained a higher level of conciousness and spiritual awareness as a result of receiving earlier Scn services. To them I can only say that results from any spirtual pursuit, whatever form it may take, are always subjective, not objective. It worked for me, I did get what I hoped to get and the benefits have been with me ever since. This does not mean to say that this is or would be true for someone else.

There is much more I could say on the subject. However, I would rather respond to what others have to say about my posts than write a book!

Peace ......:coolwink:
 

MostlyLurker

Patron Meritorious
First of all, welcome kiabut!
Your story rings true and valuable to me, and I am happy you got valuable and lasting wins out of Scientology.

...I can only say that results from any spirtual pursuit, whatever form it may take, are always subjective, not objective. It worked for me, I did get what I hoped to get and the benefits have been with me ever since. ...

How much did you paid for the whole (then) Bridge?
(I believe it was much cheaper than today.)

Did you got the promised "OT abilities"? Ability to exteriorize at will?
(I believe the "OT" idea is just a trick, never attained nor delivered by Ron or Co$, even if OT phenomenas may happen to people both in and out of Scientology alike.)

Thanks.
 
Makes sense...

Hmmm ... well, the communications he sent down during my early years in Scn were joyful, benevolent, felt right and correct - but, sometime in the late 70's all this paranoia started coming out - fear of enemies - the feeling that there were enemies everywhere - that there was an urgency to everything - that the world was going to collapse and Scientology lost - all the manifestations of someone going paranoid and psychotic.

Part of the reason for this was that Ron started running and hiding from the law, dodging the IRS and being effect of guilt over various illegalities, all this history is available on the web, do some research. There is no mystery as to why things got paranoid...Ron got paranoid (and had several psychotic breaks evidently, exacerbated by heavy drinking and self medication with drugs), and his closest acolytes and minions followed suit, until the takeover by the RTC, then it really all went to hell in a handbasket! The leader led and all the loyal followers followed, not unlike what is going on in the present scene in the COS with Miscavige at the helm... :no:

Welcome Kajabber, I hope you're out and living a happy life! I'm really glad you joined us here! :) We love to hear stories, feel free to share yours with us! :happydance:
 
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Welcome Newbie!

Welcome MeccaAnon! (Meccy? or just plain CC? :D) Everybody gets a nickname, because it's fun! :happydance:

Good points! I like talking about reforming COS, cause it causes lots of shifts in peoples thinking, which is what we need.
 
I want ot thank all of you who have welcomed me to this forum.

To all of you who have commented on my post - Thanks for your insightful comments - I really appreciate all of them.

I am sure that LRH had mental problems long before they manifested to the point that the parishoners began to be affected personally by his insanities. I am also sure that there were lies all along and abuses all along.

Perhaps those of you who experienced Scn 40 + years ago will understand what I mean when I say that many of the parishoners during that time, in spite of any craziness going on behind the scene, were able to improve themselves by using or receiving many of the services being offered at the time. As I was not involved nor aware of the upper management, whatever craziness that was going on there was not apparent to those of us receiving services at Scn missions or orgs.

The original 'Grade Chart', which I completed, ended at OTVII. The OT levels of that chart from OTIV thru OTVII are no longer part of the current chart. Fortunatley, I was not subject to later changes, such as NOTS, the L Rundowns and the revised levels of OTIV thru VII (Which are not in any way similar to the originals.). I personally believe that the chart was changed when it became apparent that those who successfully completed the original chart no longer wanted further services because they had attained a state of awareness, ability and personal certainty of themselves as spritual beings, and there was nothing more that the church could offer them. By the time the chart was revised the church was already in the throes of insane management that was desperate to hang on to parishoners who no longer needed services. The stated reason for the changes to the chart was that 'the gradient of the original chart was too steep for parishoners to truely attain the benfits of each level above OTIII, so it needs to be altered to create a more gradual gradient to Full OT'. This was not true - I knew of many who had received the full benefits of the original chart. OTVII on the original chart was also called "Full OT VII" (Which meant that a being attaining this level had arrived at a point where he/she could further expand their abilities and awareness on their own, without the assistance of the church. They were no longer 'trapped in the physical universe'.)

I know that many commenters doubt the veracity of my statements regarding having attained a higher level of conciousness and spiritual awareness as a result of receiving earlier Scn services. To them I can only say that results from any spirtual pursuit, whatever form it may take, are always subjective, not objective. It worked for me, I did get what I hoped to get and the benefits have been with me ever since. This does not mean to say that this is or would be true for someone else.

There is much more I could say on the subject. However, I would rather respond to what others have to say about my posts than write a book!

Peace ......:coolwink:

Thank you for this post. I do not doubt your sincerety in the subjective enlightenment you've gained.

I would just ask this about your gains: at what cost to others?

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Dude, this is a canard as old as the hills. Management is a result of the writings and attitudes of Hubbard. People think they know what scientology is, but almost none have seen the orders that Miscavige was operating on.
 

kjabut

New Member
Answers to your questions on my Scn story

Thanks again to all who have commented or asked questions regarding my posts. Here are my responses to the questions raised:

1. In your view what happened that Ron had a mental deterioration?

I have no idea what started his mental deterioration. There are many people in history who did great things yet were insane, such as Pythagoras, Lord Byron, Tycho Brahe, Michelangelo, Nikola Tesla, Empedocles, Yukio Mishima, Isaac Newton ... and others. I am not implying that LRH belongs in the same category as these great men ... I am only saying that many people have benefited from using some of his work.

2. Please can you explain how exactly Scientology benefits mankind?

What I mean by that is that, like any spiritual philosophy or religion, there are aspects of the Scn religion (not the management) that offer some people (not necessarily all people) a means to discover some answers to some of the universal questions of existence that most people wonder about.

3. How much did you paid for the whole (then) Bridge?

I don't recall the exact figures, but it was in the 10K range - about 50K in today's dollars.

4. Did you got the promised "OT abilities"? Ability to exteriorize at will?

Yes, I achieved all of the expected abilities, including ability to exteriorize at will - I have, on my own since then, further expanded this to the ability to be pervasive (aware of myself as 'nowhere' and 'everywhere' at the same time - i.e. not located in any particular spot unless I choose to assume a viewpoint for some purpose.)

5. I would just ask this about your gains: at what cost to others?

Good question ... at the time I achieved my gains I was not aware of the abuses to others taking place. Now that I am, I use my abilities to help others. Currently I am employed by a state behavioral health agency working with older children ages 9-17 who have been abused, neglected, in trouble with the law, mentally/emotionally challenged and/or who have no parental guidance. My job is to become an older friend/mentor/confidant. They respond to me in a very positive way as they sense that I am a good man, someone they can trust and confide in, someone always calm and understanding, someone who can help them resolve at least some of their issues. Over the last few years I have helped many children transition successfully to happy adults.

:)
 

MostlyLurker

Patron Meritorious
Thanks for your reply kjabut. I'm happy that you managed to get what expected from Scientology, also I'm happy about your job, seems a very important job. :thumbsup:
 
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Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

Perhaps those of you who experienced Scn 40 + years ago will understand what I mean when I say that many of the parishoners during that time, in spite of any craziness going on behind the scene, were able to improve themselves by using or receiving many of the services being offered at the time. As I was not involved nor aware of the upper management, whatever craziness that was going on there was not apparent to those of us receiving services at Scn missions or orgs.

1970: Well, at the New York Org at that time, some of the craziness was apparent: the giant picture of Hubbard in the Academy which was applauded at least several times a day, the ultra-strident Sea Org members who had contempt for anyone not in the Sea Org, and the NY Org execs who had contempt for the NYC Missions. The Registrars "ruthlessly" applied Hard Sell tech to anyone with money, and being, essentially, a "kid" (college age), what little money I had - from a summer job - had already been spent on the HSDC (DN) through Grade 4 + Internships, so they left me alone.

I can remember being a student in the Scientology Academy (which was a large room - packed with students - in the Martinique Hotel in mid Manhattan), and "keeping my TRs in" while the Academy Supervisor and a person from the Guardians Office (who had entered the Academy without authorization during course hours) had a wrestling match (a fight) bouncing from wall to table to table to wall. I can remember acting as a "terminal" (listening without evaluating) when a friend, who was a staff member, expressed his upset at having witnessed someone handcuffed to a heavy table on one of the upper floors of the Org (where the Sea Org and GO had their offices) and there was more of a similar "crazy" nature occurring and it was impossible not to notice it, at least glancingly.

As a student and an auditor my objective was to study and audit, which is what I did. This meant that I remained focused on that, and ignored the craziness. I also ignored the signs that the craziness was most intense at what was presented as a floating island of sanity: the 'Flagship'.

Over-all, I found the time spent training and auditing in the early 1970s to be beneficial. It was an exciting time.

The original 'Grade Chart', which I completed, ended at OTVII. The OT levels of that chart from OTIV thru OTVII are no longer part of the current chart. Fortunatley, I was not subject to later changes, such as NOTS, the L Rundowns and the revised levels of OTIV thru VII (Which are not in any way similar to the originals.). I personally believe that the chart was changed when it became apparent that those who successfully completed the original chart no longer wanted further services because they had attained a state of awareness, ability and personal certainty of themselves as spritual beings, and there was nothing more that the church could offer them. By the time the chart was revised the church was already in the throes of insane management that was desperate to hang on to parishoners who no longer needed services. The stated reason for the changes to the chart was that 'the gradient of the original chart was too steep for parishoners to truely attain the benfits of each level above OTIII, so it needs to be altered to create a more gradual gradient to Full OT'. This was not true - I knew of many who had received the full benefits of the original chart. OTVII on the original chart was also called "Full OT VII" (Which meant that a being attaining this level had arrived at a point where he/she could further expand their abilities and awareness on their own, without the assistance of the church. They were no longer 'trapped in the physical universe'.)

-snip-

During the late 1970s changes in the Grade Chart began with Hubbard's ('78. '79) changes re. Dianetic Clear. The old Hubbard Standard Dianetics Course HCOBs were revised - or perhaps a better word was butchered. I watched this from a distance as I was, by that time, "off lines." Having taken a vacation from Scientology involvement in 1976, I was in no hurry to return once I had read the May 1977 'LSD, Years after they had come off of' HCOB and then heard of something called the "sweat program," where we were to wear rubber suits and run around to rid ourselves of "LSD crystals."

Then came NOTs, which was hyped and promoted with intensity, and the full OT 7s, and anyone above OT 3, were being told that THE barrier to the attainment of full OT had been overcome. (Full OT was the promised result of old OT 8, "Knowing and willing cause, subjective and objective, over thought, life, matter, energy, space and time.")

Years earlier, when the Clearing Course had been released, the same announcement had been made: THE final barrier to full OT had been overcome (the R6 bank), then a few years later the announcement was made again with OT 3. Each time people were glowing with certainty that THIS WAS IT.

(And I have no doubt that, in that atmosphere consisting of part covert mind-manipulation, part genuine counseling in its best expression, and part intense hope, desire and expectation, that natural latent psychical abilities did sometimes occur - or return - to individuals.)

Now the THIS WAS IT was NOTs, and people flocked to Flag to do their NOTs.

I would differ with you that full OT 7s did not want further services. Most had been seeing that (old) OT 8 EP at the top of the (then) Grade Chart for years, and wanted it intensely.

The proof was the millions of dollars made, at the new Flag Land Base, from these full OT 7s eagerly buying services.

Then, also, from Hubbard's orders, the Grade Chart continued to change, with the old OT 4 through full OT 7 being discontinued and replaced with a number of NOTs levels. This after Power Processing, R6ew, and the Clearing Course were no longer required for anyone being classified as a "Dianetic Clear."

At the time, I had no idea that Hubbard was at the HAVE (take, get, and grab) part of a thirty year long BE, DO, HAVE cycle, and had become preoccupied with gathering up any and all money in Scientology so it was under his control, building monuments to himself, and hiding from anyone with a subpoena or a badge.

Hubbard's final major act, IMO, was authorizing the looting of the Missions through his #1 henchman David Miscavige.

Have you read David Mayo's accounts of this time? I'll see if I can locate some of his observations and link them.

Interview with Russell Miller, 1986:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/mayo.htm

Article from 'IVy' magazine and 'Free Spirit' magazine, 1991:

http://www.ivymag.org/iv-01-02.html
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
I'm still waiting for someone to voice support for beatings as a management tool. :)

Physical abuse is an essential part of Sea Org management technique, and for the same reasons that whippings were part of slavery management techniques for thousands of years.

In a regular company, you reward good performance in employees with raises and bonuses, and penalize bad performance with demotion or firing. Employees, in turn, penalize bad management by quitting when management is unable to make enough money to pay employees as well as the competition.

But Sea Org members are not employees.

They are slaves.

They are slaves for life. They are not paid for their labor. They are not given a choice on what work they do, what they will eat, when they will sleep, whether they can marry, whether their spouses will be allowed to live with them, whether they may have children. If they try to escape, they are hunted down and coerced to return to their slavery.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Hmmm.... you didn't take up the point that the "management" problem is actually spelled out by

A) Policy

B) Ron's behavior, which was emulated.

TROLL.
 
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