My story from inside Scientology/Sea Org

nw2394

Silver Meritorious Patron
I'm not saying it all was....there have been and continue to be some stellar SUB-Products, and very many well-meaning and kick ass auditors and sups.
The point is that in the 70's, before the SO was so "present", there were some big booming orgs.

I have not seem that pattern repeated with any regularity, and in fact, quite the opposite with false stats, overt products etc.


It is not my intention to invalidate the Individual contribtuions...but the SO as a "managment group" appears to be a real failure in terms of consistently getting products...vis a vis big booming orgs...

OK. I get what you're saying. You're suggesting that the SO is crap and the general health of Scn as a whole was/is worse compared to what might have been had it not been there. Yeah - totally agree.

Assumimg for one moment that the OT3 story is true (critics please suspend your disbelief temporaily) then putting a bunch of people in uniforms that dramatise that incident and then not train and audit them past OT3 was a disaster waiting to happen. Doing it with kids who have next to no life experience either (as in the CMO) was just f---ing ludicrous.

Nick
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
I'm not saying it all was....there have been and continue to be some stellar SUB-Products, and very many well-meaning and kick ass auditors and sups.
The point is that in the 70's, before the SO was so "present", there were some big booming orgs.

hmm

Munich - SO Garrison Mission
Milan - SO garrison mission
Boston - SO Garrison Mission
Paris - SO Garrison Mission

those were four of the biggest orgs in the 70's. All run by Sea Org Missionaires.

Not that this proves anything other than the guys on those missions knew how to run orgs.

After all if the main purpose is to get "in Scientology Management Tech" then it is bound to fail overall because Scientology couldn;t manage a piss up in a brewery. And HUbbard management tech could fuck up a wet dream.

It is not my intention to invalidate the Individual contribtuions...but the SO as a "managment group" appears to be a real failure in terms of consistently getting products...vis a vis big booming orgs...

roflmao. The "SO"? well yeah, I notice you seem to avoid talking about the Hubbard completely insane ideas on "management". I would definitely agree that the SO fails - it fails because the ideology it espouses is complete dreck.

explains why class V orgs pay their staff like crap, the SO abuses its own people and why Scientology produces far more ex Staff, ex public and ex OTs than it produces anything else.
 
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Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Dear Mick,
I tried. I visited him shortly just after being out, but that did not go well. I was still in the "being public" state of mind then, so he did not take much notice of me. I have now sent a letter to his brother to find out his address, so that I can then get back in contact with him. I might have to go there and explain it all. We'll see.
yes, I think we must have met at one stage. Where was your office? was it in AOSH EU or over in the CLO?


Our office was in the AOSH EU building on the same floor as reception and next to the FSCs. Heinz Rau was another person on the tour. We berthed in the Nordland. Some of the people I knew well - Michael and Britta Bang, Michael Lanciai, Susannah Juvenon, Gail Schumacher, Edith Loringett, Fredy and Hildegard Hunkeler, Dusty Rhodes. In the CLO - Bev D'Aubrey CO OSA - Mario, Clara Coilu and a lot of others I'll probably remember just after I hit
"submit reply".

Sorry to hear about your first attempt at reconciling with your dad. As a parent let me say "Please don't give up". There is a lot of stuff to get past and I am sure he was hurt very badly by what happened but somewhere underneath it all I am pretty damned sure there is a lot of attachment left.
Our son is disconnected from us and has been for 7 years or so. We have a grandson we have never met and have no photos of and sometimes I get royally pissed off at our son but I tell you - in the end that would all disappear if we were to get back in touch. Take it slowly and gently, FWIW - don't try and "handle" just tell him you love him.
 

petraph33

Patron with Honors
Our office was in the AOSH EU building on the same floor as reception and next to the FSCs. Heinz Rau was another person on the tour. We berthed in the Nordland. Some of the people I knew well - Michael and Britta Bang, Michael Lanciai, Susannah Juvenon, Gail Schumacher, Edith Loringett, Fredy and Hildegard Hunkeler, Dusty Rhodes. In the CLO - Bev D'Aubrey CO OSA - Mario, Clara Coilu and a lot of others I'll probably remember just after I hit
"submit reply".

Sorry to hear about your first attempt at reconciling with your dad. As a parent let me say "Please don't give up". There is a lot of stuff to get past and I am sure he was hurt very badly by what happened but somewhere underneath it all I am pretty damned sure there is a lot of attachment left.
Our son is disconnected from us and has been for 7 years or so. We have a grandson we have never met and have no photos of and sometimes I get royally pissed off at our son but I tell you - in the end that would all disappear if we were to get back in touch. Take it slowly and gently, FWIW - don't try and "handle" just tell him you love him.

oh yes, I will keep persisting.

Gail Schumacher is out. She blew and left Eva all alone as a reg in AOSH EU. This was in the beginning of the 1990's she hooked up with someone I think she had an out 2-D with and could not face the consequences. Stephan Schumacher, the Qual Sec, got remarried some years later. I remember Heinz Rau. I wonder what happened to Bev D'abrey. She was a tough cookie... I have a faint picture now in my head about that FSC office before the whole org was reno'ed. I was a lot in Div 6 with Hildegard and in the Call-in Unit with Freddy to get their programs done.
 

Div6

Crusader
hmm

Munich - SO Garrison Mission
Milan - SO garrison mission
Boston - SO Garrison Mission
Paris - SO Garrison Mission

those were four of the biggest orgs in the 70's. All run by Sea Org Missionaires.

Not that this proves anything other than the guys on those missions knew how to run orgs.

After all if the main purpose is to get "in Scientology Management Tech" then it is bound to fail overall because Scientology couldn;t manage a piss up in a brewery. And HUbbard management tech could fuck up a wet dream.



roflmao. The "SO"? well yeah, I notice you seem to avoid talking about the Hubbard completely insane ideas on "management". I would definitely agree that the SO fails - it fails because the ideology it espouses is complete dreck.

explains why class V orgs pay their staff like crap, the SO abuses its own people and why Scientology produces far more ex Staff, ex public and ex OTs than it produces anything else.

Well, please don't take it personally.

Quite a few have success with applying the Red on White...they then assume the Green on White works the same. It doesn't. Different dynamics completely. The Cl V org I was with was generally solvent, and usually paid well in comparison to others...so much so that the CLO would send "missions" every month just so they could get $ to eat. From our viewpoint, we would build to a certain size, and the the SO would rape and pillage HCO and Qual to rip off recruits, and we would be back where we were before. I don't know of any "policy" that says to do that, but the overamped Sea Ogres apparently went to the Ghengis Khan finishing school for manners and policy knowledge, as they had the threat of RPF hanging over their heads. We could go home and go to sleep.

You can blame the "dreck", but then that just puts you at effect, now doesn't it?

And we do agree, the SO etc's main product to date are OVERT products.
Even you Mick...:coolwink:
 

Alan

Gold Meritorious Patron
hmm

Munich - SO Garrison Mission
Milan - SO garrison mission
Boston - SO Garrison Mission
Paris - SO Garrison Mission

those were four of the biggest orgs in the 70's. All run by Sea Org Missionaires.

Not that this proves anything other than the guys on those missions knew how to run orgs.

After all if the main purpose is to get "in Scientology Management Tech" then it is bound to fail overall because Scientology couldn;t manage a piss up in a brewery. And HUbbard management tech could fuck up a wet dream.

roflmao. The "SO"? well yeah, I notice you seem to avoid talking about the Hubbard completely insane ideas on "management". I would definitely agree that the SO fails - it fails because the ideology it espouses is complete dreck.

explains why class V orgs pay their staff like crap, the SO abuses its own people and why Scientology produces far more ex Staff, ex public and ex OTs than it produces anything else.

Much truth Mick!

Booming Orgs at one time or another:

Perth Org - 1959-62 - Built by Dennis Stephens - doing what the public wanted - a better life.

Melbourne Org - early 60's - built from the public supplied by Peter and Yvonne Gilham - whom they accused of squirrelling and ripping off the Org.

Ney York Org 1966 to 68 - Built by Bob Thomas, Lee and Dave Ecker and a great team who delivered great tech - also Bob aligned himself with the local Missions and field practitioners. Destroyed 1969 - SO Mission "dagger in notice board episode," and subsequent SO Missions.

Munich - SO Garrison Mission - also built from earlier Mission and field practitioners.

Milan - SO garrison mission

Boston - SO Garrison Mission - built from my earlier Mission - which had a huge public.

Paris - SO Garrison Mission

Etc., etc! :grouch:

Alan
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Well, please don't take it personally.

Quite a few have success with applying the Red on White...they then assume the Green on White works the same. It doesn't. Different dynamics completely. The Cl V org I was with was generally solvent, and usually paid well in comparison to others...so much so that the CLO would send "missions" every month just so they could get $ to eat. From our viewpoint, we would build to a certain size, and the the SO would rape and pillage HCO and Qual to rip off recruits, and we would be back where we were before. I don't know of any "policy" that says to do that, but the overamped Sea Ogres apparently went to the Ghengis Khan finishing school for manners and policy knowledge, as they had the threat of RPF hanging over their heads. We could go home and go to sleep.

You can blame the "dreck", but then that just puts you at effect, now doesn't it?

I don't care about being "effect" Div6, that is a scientology paradigm and is, of course, dreck!

And we do agree, the SO etc's main product to date are OVERT products.
Even you Mick...:coolwink:

yes indeed we do. What is fascinating though is that you seem to think there are some sort of products in scientology anywhere - it's total rubbish from side to side and top to bottom.

So you might as well rail against Org staff, Mission Staff, FSMs, yourself, your friends or whatever as well as the Sea Org.
 

Div6

Crusader
I don't care about being "effect" Div6, that is a scientology paradigm and is, of course, dreck!



yes indeed we do. What is fascinating though is that you seem to think there are some sort of products in scientology anywhere - it's total rubbish from side to side and top to bottom.

So you might as well rail against Org staff, Mission Staff, FSMs, yourself, your friends or whatever as well as the Sea Org.


And miss the opportunity to jerk your chain? What fun is that? :D
 

Alan

Gold Meritorious Patron
So you might as well rail against Org staff, Mission Staff, FSMs, yourself, your friends or whatever as well as the Sea Org.

What!

You are accusing us all in a conspiracy to (put appropriate harmful act here) on the public.

It was all LRHs fault!

It was......it was......it was.....wasn't it? :bigcry:
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
oh yes, I will keep persisting.

Gail Schumacher is out. She blew and left Eva all alone as a reg in AOSH EU. This was in the beginning of the 1990's she hooked up with someone I think she had an out 2-D with and could not face the consequences. Stephan Schumacher, the Qual Sec, got remarried some years later. I remember Heinz Rau. I wonder what happened to Bev D'abrey. She was a tough cookie... I have a faint picture now in my head about that FSC office before the whole org was reno'ed. I was a lot in Div 6 with Hildegard and in the Call-in Unit with Freddy to get their programs done.


wow - Gail is out? That is surprising news indeed. I wonder where she went? Did she go home to Oz? She had a swiss passport because of her marriage to Stephan I wonder if she kept it after they divorced. Was Eva still married to Jim Boyd? I did like both of them.

Bev was the chairman of my last comm ev in the SO - I really don't have much good to say about her - and 'tough' is not how I would describe her, LOL.

Heinz I heard routed out and was back in Stuttgart. Did you meet Toni Kinzl the Auditor editor?

Did you ever meet Helen Covary-Fritsch in your Hamburg days? I am not sure she was still around there in 86.
 
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Pierrot

Patron with Honors
Our office was in the AOSH EU building on the same floor as reception and next to the FSCs. Heinz Rau was another person on the tour. We berthed in the Nordland. Some of the people I knew well - Michael and Britta Bang, Michael Lanciai, Susannah Juvenon, Gail Schumacher, Edith Loringett, Fredy and Hildegard Hunkeler, Dusty Rhodes. In the CLO - Bev D'Aubrey CO OSA - Mario, Clara Coilu and a lot of others I'll probably remember just after I hit
"submit reply".

Do you know if Michael Lanciai is in? I had real fun working with him at some time.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Do you know if Michael Lanciai is in? I had real fun working with him at some time.

I heard he had been declared along with Susannah (Juvonen) Lanciai - this was quite a while ago. I did hear that both he and Susannah had worked they way back in again - I will check on it.

Yeah I liked Michael, he was a bit of a jack-the-lad but good.
 

Pierrot

Patron with Honors
I heard he had been declared along with Susannah (Juvonen) Lanciai - this was quite a while ago. I did hear that both he and Susannah had worked they way back in again - I will check on it.

Yeah I liked Michael, he was a bit of a jack-the-lad but good.

yes, I know what you mean ;-) Working with him was very... rock'n'roll (he was a R&B singer before Scn, if memory serves)

I met Susannah Lanciai once - I was regged for Solo Nots by Michael, it didn't go too far as I was doing very well in life, not interested to go to Flag. Anyway - as the reg cycle didn't go through Susannah spitted out the only reason she could think of "You joined the squirrels!" Truth is I didn't, I said I read some things but have no interest in it. So she said "I have to give a phone call" and before leaving the office said to me and Michael "Don't talk while I'm not here!"

And so - after having had a lot of fun before working with Michael, a lot of laughs and jokes - the last picture of him I have is him sitting in front of me for long minutes, head down, unable to utter a word just because his wife and senior said so. I found it pathetic.

Thanks for your answer.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
I just wanted to clarify something for Div 6.

Where Scientology orgs have been run by people who have been both interested in helping others and good at running organizations they have been relatively successful. One of the best I saw - and most unsung - was Bern Org in the lat 70's when it was run by Alois Eisenring. It was an org that was steadily expanding because they planned their recruitment, the staff at the lowest end actually received the minimum pay, not great but not bad either. Alois annual pay was around what would be reasonable for the director f a small non-profit organization. Happy field and so on. Good guy running it, knew what he was doing.

I don't remember the HUbbard policies that were brought up but something about recruitment to excess, someone holding down expansion (in an org that had been expanding for almost 2 years...) Alois (he was SO) was removed and ended up at the FB I think, the org got totalled, usual story.

But that whole evolution - good guy doing something well and then getting smashed for it - IS SCIENTOLOGY. That's what Hubbard created. There were good mission holders, Scientology and Hubbard smashed them. It is part of the unworkable system that Hubbard created. The Sea Org was one of the things he used in order to do what he considered to be his system.
 

Pierrot

Patron with Honors
I just wanted to clarify something for Div 6.

Where Scientology orgs have been run by people who have been both interested in helping others and good at running organizations they have been relatively successful. One of the best I saw - and most unsung - was Bern Org in the lat 70's when it was run by Alois Eisenring.
(snip)

And another one, lol - was he a blond guy, with moustache? The only Alois SO Missionnaire I have ever met. Very soft, listening, and with a "granting beingness" attitude - "You'll do all right" type of thing. Trust. Amazing as very atypique from all the other SO I've met - if that's him I'm not surprised to hear about the Bern Org.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
But that whole evolution - good guy doing something well and then getting smashed for it - IS SCIENTOLOGY. That's what Hubbard created. There were good mission holders, Scientology and Hubbard smashed them. It is part of the unworkable system that Hubbard created. The Sea Org was one of the things he used in order to do what he considered to be his system.

You know Mick, I have often wondered about that.
Why is it that the good, the workable and the successful was/is so regularly smashed to pieces? I saw it so often, and you are right - it IS Scientology.

Do you think the idea is to only have cowed and compliant people left?
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
You know Mick, I have often wondered about that.
Why is it that the good, the workable and the successful was/is so regularly smashed to pieces? I saw it so often, and you are right - it IS Scientology.

Do you think the idea is to only have cowed and compliant people left?

Mick might have a different answer, but, from my view, what Scientologists aren't comprehending is that Scientology is *not* a system. Not a self-supporting system. It's not intended to be internally consistent.

Instead, Scientology was (and is) a 'service facsimile' created by Ron to allow Him to justify *anything* He wanted to do. It doesn't work as a 'system', because it's not intended to. Ron wanted Scientology to *look* like a system, so, He deliberately made it as confusing and confounding and self-contradictory that the *only* final answer would be 'What Does Ron Say?'

And, Ron could say different things on thursday from what He said on Monday; and did.

Now Ron's gone and the 'system' is suffering from the lack of a credible replacement. Not that it ever worked 'well', except for Ron. And, it didn't work all that well for *Him* either.

Zinj
 

Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron
reply to Zinj

Right again, Zinj. Hubbard designed scientology to appear to be a system, but was really set up to maximize power and control opportunities for himself. How naive many of us were in believing Hubbard. If he has "slammed himself into history", it has been as a consummate liar. So convincing he was, that he believed his own lies.
Smitty
 

Tanstaafl

Crusader
It might be an interesting exercise if Scns were polled to find out which political parties they would vote for. A fairly even distribution would suggest that either they don't understand the Scn "system" or don't know how it applies to politics, or that it just isn't a philosophical system. Just a thought.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Mick might have a different answer, but, from my view, what Scientologists aren't comprehending is that Scientology is *not* a system. Not a self-supporting system. It's not intended to be internally consistent.

Instead, Scientology was (and is) a 'service facsimile' created by Ron to allow Him to justify *anything* He wanted to do. It doesn't work as a 'system', because it's not intended to. Ron wanted Scientology to *look* like a system, so, He deliberately made it as confusing and confounding and self-contradictory that the *only* final answer would be 'What Does Ron Say?'

And, Ron could say different things on thursday from what He said on Monday; and did.

Now Ron's gone and the 'system' is suffering from the lack of a credible replacement. Not that it ever worked 'well', except for Ron. And, it didn't work all that well for *Him* either.

Zinj

Thanks Zinj.
Even after all this time I have trouble coming to terms with the enormity of it. So much effing personal pain caused to so many people. It really is staggering overall.
 
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