Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
I posted a thread yesterday discussing the most common arguments I've heard from people who disagreed with the choice of others to be indie, FZ or other non CofS Scientologists. As I said there, I felt that there are other things that people can do and that, although the thread was NOT meant to be about me but more about the arguments, that I personally was in favor of people making other ideological choices.
So what are the choices? Well, as some people have pointed out, some leave the cult and decide they don't want any religion or ology. Some are atheists. Ok, well and good. But what if a person liked the idea of trying to achieve something related to unlocking inner potential, something akin to reaching "Native State" or "OT" if a Scn'ist was phrasing that or "Nirvana" or "higher consciousness" if someone else might be. What if the person still had some of the same spiritual goals that either led him into Scn or that he derived from Scn, thought were worthy, didn't attain but still cared about? What if that person was convinced- as many people I've talked to truly are- that any study of Scn either independently or in the Freezone was not the way to go about it. What could be suggested?
Well, we're all going to have different ideas. The first thing my husband would say if he were discussing this is "depends on what you're trying to accomplish." which is exactly why I said what's posted above in blue. If you had someone who still had that particular dream but who was quite sure that he didn't want to try to address it through any sort of Scn thing in any way, shape or form then are there alternatives- GOOD ones?
I say "yes". As I said in the thread about other religions a couple weeks ago, I remember Advance Magazine discussing other ologies and isms then kind of putting them all down as not being as good as Scn. Well, I'm not convinced that it's true that nothing's going to do as well or get the person as far, should that person have such a spiritual goal and outlook in mind. I really don't think so.
So what do I suggest along those lines? I would suggest Buddhism, for one. Not just because Scn cribbed a lot from Buddhism- I really think that in some cases Buddhism addresses some of these things better. I think that Hubbard thought that the objectives of Buddhism might be great and all but unobtainable without confronting the past aberrative incidents. That sounds really cool and all but, although I've met some very together upper level OTs who struck me as rather powerful beings, I have yet to meet or hear of one single OT who had perfect confront, didn't get misemotional, or who was as close to reaching that goal (Whatever. Call it Nirvana, native state...) as advertised. Yet these people spent hours and hours and hours running through incidents, Dianetics, Scientology, NED for OTs, etc. And they even liked it. I can't get into everybody's head but these people I met did not strike me as better off than, say, the Dalai Lama or Thich Nhat Hanh or Swami Vivekananda or Paramansa Yogananda- who, yes, admitted to human failings but I've yet to meet an OT who wasn't rife with them.
I used to be told by people in Cof$ that the enlightened yogis, swamis, gurus, teachers- they were just "going out the bottom" to the top of the next tone scale. Hey, great justification! Nice way to explain it away but it doesn't explain ANYTHING. If it comes to that, how does that churchie know that the OTs they met who seemed pretty powerful hadn't "gone out the bottom"? It's a specious bit of rationalization, nothing more.
So do I honestly think that Buddhism and related disciplines and ologies such as the 8 fold path of Yoga really get a person up any significant distance in his search for enlightenment? Yes, I actually do.
I was wondering if occultism also does that. I personally think there are forces there that some occultists do tap into. I am not sure if all of them can handle it but again, can I see into all those people's heads? No. What about all the occultists I don't even know? That's right. I don't know what they've attained. It's my guess that there's something there.
As someone- perhaps Alanzo- said on my religions thread- the key may be mysticism and that's why there have been Christian saints who had great wisdom, as well. I think just about all the major religions- and many minor ones- have mystical traditions and offshoots. This may be what is so effective (in my personal opinion) about Eastern religions. The rich and long time mystical tradition. Other religions have it too but I think it's not on the forefront with them as it is in Eastern religions. But that's only how it seems to me.
And of course there are things created by people who used to do Scn but who do not consider themselves to be creating a Freezone or indie variety of Scn, such as Idenics.
Personally, I think that there are a lot of ways other than Scn to really and trulyadvance on one's spiritual path if one considers that one has one.
So what are the choices? Well, as some people have pointed out, some leave the cult and decide they don't want any religion or ology. Some are atheists. Ok, well and good. But what if a person liked the idea of trying to achieve something related to unlocking inner potential, something akin to reaching "Native State" or "OT" if a Scn'ist was phrasing that or "Nirvana" or "higher consciousness" if someone else might be. What if the person still had some of the same spiritual goals that either led him into Scn or that he derived from Scn, thought were worthy, didn't attain but still cared about? What if that person was convinced- as many people I've talked to truly are- that any study of Scn either independently or in the Freezone was not the way to go about it. What could be suggested?
Well, we're all going to have different ideas. The first thing my husband would say if he were discussing this is "depends on what you're trying to accomplish." which is exactly why I said what's posted above in blue. If you had someone who still had that particular dream but who was quite sure that he didn't want to try to address it through any sort of Scn thing in any way, shape or form then are there alternatives- GOOD ones?
I say "yes". As I said in the thread about other religions a couple weeks ago, I remember Advance Magazine discussing other ologies and isms then kind of putting them all down as not being as good as Scn. Well, I'm not convinced that it's true that nothing's going to do as well or get the person as far, should that person have such a spiritual goal and outlook in mind. I really don't think so.
So what do I suggest along those lines? I would suggest Buddhism, for one. Not just because Scn cribbed a lot from Buddhism- I really think that in some cases Buddhism addresses some of these things better. I think that Hubbard thought that the objectives of Buddhism might be great and all but unobtainable without confronting the past aberrative incidents. That sounds really cool and all but, although I've met some very together upper level OTs who struck me as rather powerful beings, I have yet to meet or hear of one single OT who had perfect confront, didn't get misemotional, or who was as close to reaching that goal (Whatever. Call it Nirvana, native state...) as advertised. Yet these people spent hours and hours and hours running through incidents, Dianetics, Scientology, NED for OTs, etc. And they even liked it. I can't get into everybody's head but these people I met did not strike me as better off than, say, the Dalai Lama or Thich Nhat Hanh or Swami Vivekananda or Paramansa Yogananda- who, yes, admitted to human failings but I've yet to meet an OT who wasn't rife with them.
I used to be told by people in Cof$ that the enlightened yogis, swamis, gurus, teachers- they were just "going out the bottom" to the top of the next tone scale. Hey, great justification! Nice way to explain it away but it doesn't explain ANYTHING. If it comes to that, how does that churchie know that the OTs they met who seemed pretty powerful hadn't "gone out the bottom"? It's a specious bit of rationalization, nothing more.
So do I honestly think that Buddhism and related disciplines and ologies such as the 8 fold path of Yoga really get a person up any significant distance in his search for enlightenment? Yes, I actually do.
I was wondering if occultism also does that. I personally think there are forces there that some occultists do tap into. I am not sure if all of them can handle it but again, can I see into all those people's heads? No. What about all the occultists I don't even know? That's right. I don't know what they've attained. It's my guess that there's something there.
As someone- perhaps Alanzo- said on my religions thread- the key may be mysticism and that's why there have been Christian saints who had great wisdom, as well. I think just about all the major religions- and many minor ones- have mystical traditions and offshoots. This may be what is so effective (in my personal opinion) about Eastern religions. The rich and long time mystical tradition. Other religions have it too but I think it's not on the forefront with them as it is in Eastern religions. But that's only how it seems to me.
And of course there are things created by people who used to do Scn but who do not consider themselves to be creating a Freezone or indie variety of Scn, such as Idenics.
Personally, I think that there are a lot of ways other than Scn to really and trulyadvance on one's spiritual path if one considers that one has one.