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Narconon Victims

Purification: Liver damage
I.F. Magazine / January - February 1998
By Lori Bishop & Sarah Hughes



Jerry Whitfield sat in his doctor's waiting room with his head in his hands. The news wasn't good. The medical tests showed that Whitfield's liver was damaged. It would never by fully functional again. What was less clear was why.

Twenty-five years ago, Whitfield had suffered from Hepatitis B, a possible cause of his liver ailment. But he also had been a member of the "Church" of Scientology for 10 years.

During that time, he had undergone what is called the "purification rundown," a regimen that the "Church" claims will "assist in releasing and flushing out of the body the accumulated toxic residue which may be lodged in the tissues."

The controversial program puts a member through two or more weeks of running, lengthy sauna treatments, a special diet, and high doses of vitamins and minerals, including niacin. Participants are advised to consult a physician before starting, but often the advice comes from an in-house doctor who is a member of the "Church" of Scientology.

Whitfield was not disqualified despite a liver that already might have been weakened by his bout with hepatitis.

"I was worried that the problems with my liver were connected to having taken niacin" in large dosages, Whitfield said in an interview.

"I couldn't prove that it was the niacin, but . . . "There were also the four-hour sessions in the sauna for a period of 30 days. "A friend of my wife collapsed from the heat," he recalled.

Since 1978, about 100,000 individuals have undergone this "purification rundown" and "Church" officials defend the practice. According to John Carmichael, head of the "Church" center in New York City, the "rundown" is "immensely useful" and has caused no "real problems that I've heard of."
But some "Church" critics allege that the procedures are rooted in scientific quackery and put dangerous pressures on the body through a combination of physical exertion, heat and heavy ingestion of vitamins. The critics contend that the "rundown" endangers the health of trusting "Church" members, including celebrities drawn to the "Church's" promises of self-improvement.

Last June, the supermarket tabloid Star trumpeted a story attributing ailments of 29-year-old Lisa Marie Presley, Elvis Presley's daughter, to a Scientology "cleansing" ritual.

On Dec. 1, and article in The New York Times highlighted another controversy about Scientology's unorthodox handling of medical problems. A year earlier, a 36-year-old Scientologist with apparent psychological problems checked out of a Florida hospital and into the care of Scientologists who kept her under a 24-hour watch at a hotel they owned in Clearwater, Fla. Two-and-a-half weeks later, the woman -- Lisa McPherson -- died.

The county medical examiner stated that McPherson was deprived of water for at least her last five to 10 days and died of a blood clot brought on by dehydration. The Scientologists disputed the examiner's finding and rejected responsibility for the death. But the case has focused more attention on other treatments prescribed by the "Church" to its followers, including the "purification rundown."

The "purification rundown" was invented by L. Ron Hubbard, a popular science fictions writer who founded the "Church" of Scientology in Los Angeles in 1954. Hubbard, who died of a stroke in 1986, argued that toxins ingested and absorbed by the body -- from street drugs to food additives, from perfumes to radiation -- remain as harmful residue until they are removed through the purification process.

Hubbard expressed particular concern about LSD, which he claimed "apparently stays in the system, lodging in the tissues, and mainly the fatty tissues of the body, and is liable to go into action again -- giving the person unpredictable 'trips' -- even years after the person has come off LSD." (For more details, see Hubbard's Clear Body Clear Mind: The Effective Purification Program.)

But some medical experts question Hubbard's grasp of nutritional science as well as his supposed cure. They warn that the program's extremes -- long hours in a sauna after running and massive dosages of niacin and other vitamins -- can be harmful.

"I've talked with several psychotropic pharmacologists - specialists in psychotropic drugs like LSD," said Michael Glade, a doctor with the American College of Nutrition and coordinator of the college's Council on Endocrinology and Minerals. "None of them thinks there's very much of any psychotropic drug stored in fat. So there isn't much to release in the first place. And if you're going to say that someone is going to go on an LSD trip from burning or releasing LSD stored in their fat tissues, those people would have died long before of an LSD overdose" since the volumes originally ingested would have been huge.

Hubbard himself was no scientist, just a science fiction author. In his public writings, Hubbard never explained how he conducted his studies: how many subjects he used or whether he had a control group data a trained scientist would be expected to provide.

Nonetheless, Hubbard's authoritative writing style, which made his 1950 book, Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, a long-running best-seller, added seeming legitimacy to the program. After his death, Hubbard's theories gained an aura of dogma within Scientology as the "Church" simultaneously grew richer and more combative against critics. Aggressive use of libel law silenced questions about the safety of the "rundown" and other practices.

Yet current medical opinion auggests caution, even over the milder parts of the "purification" regimen, such as 30 minutes a day of running to "get the blood circulating deeper into the tissues where toxic residuals are lodged." Though running is a popular exercise for many people, Dr. Stanley Wallach, executive director of the American College of Nutrition, argued that "making a blanket advocacy, not knowing the cardiovascular competence of the patient, can be dangerous."

Even riskier, Wallach said, was putting an individual who just finished a long run in a sauna for four hours or more at temperatures of 140 to 180 degrees Fahrenheit. Hubbard's theory was that heavy sweating could help purge the toxins. "The impurities which have been freed up by the increased circulation [from the running] can now be dispelled from the system and leave the body through the pores," Hubbard wrote. "So where one is doing the Purification program, one should be very careful to ensure that actual sweating occurs and in volume."

Safety standards for saunas, however, warn that a person should not exceed 30 minutes in a sauna and that anyone with poor health should consult a physician. Wallach called the lengthy sauna sessions "a dangerously excessive time," which could lead to hyperthermia, heat exhaustion, salt or potassium depletion and heat stroke.

Hubbard did include advice for copping with the potential health hazards, but medical experts view the home-style remedies as failing to grasp the seriousness of the conditions. For heat exhaustion, for instance, Hubbard wrote that "when a person gets too warm or begins feeling faint, should the body temperature get too high, the recommendation is to go out and take a cool shower and then go back into the suana."

For heat stroke, a potentially life-threatening condition, Hubbard suggested checking a first-aid manual, putting the person in a gradually cooled shower and administering fluids, salt, potassium gluconate or bioplasma. A trip to the hospital was not mentioned.

In an interview, Scientology leader Carmichael confirmed that there was no specific medical supervision of participants in the sauna program. But he added that people "do it with a twin, so that if there are any problems, somebody's there. If you fainted, you wouldn't be left lying on the floor."
Carmichael said he underwent the program himself and experienced some initial fogginess of the brain, which he blamed on drugs he had taken in the past. "But eventually, my mind became clear and I could think clearly again," he added.

Educated Vitamins
Others who subjected themselves to the "purification rundown" complained of more severe complications. "Two weeks after I had finished the program, my appendix burst," said Dennis Erlich, a former "Church" member. "I also suffered from hyperthermia. Since then, I frequently break out into sweats for no reason."

As part of the cleansing process, Hubbard also recommended the drinking of large volumes of water and the ingestion of vitamin and mineral supplements. Hubbard called niacin the "educated vitamin" and claimed that "taken in sufficient quantities, niacin appears to break up and unleash LSD, marijuana and other drugs and poisons from the tissues and cells . . .
"I have seen a full-blown case of skin cancer turn on and run out on niacin dosages . . . Other lesser manifestations that may turn on with niacin are hives, flu symptoms, gastroenteritis, aching bones, upset stomach or a fearful or terrified condition." The "purification rundown" recommends niacin dosages starting at 100 milligrams and rising to 5,000 milligrams.
But critics contend that the recommended high dosages were potentially toxic themselves and actually cause some of the ailments that Hubbard claimed were being driven from the body. "By the time you get up to 3,000 milligrams, you have a high incidence of very severe facial flushing," said Michael Glade of the American College of Nutrition. "A lot of people think that means they're purging themselves of some bad stuff. [But it is] an adverse reaction, not a desirable response."

Glade expressed concern, too, about recommended high dosages of other vitamins, particularly the levels of vitamins A and D. The Scientology program recommends a top level of vitamin A at 50,000 IU a day. Yet, according to Glade, vitamin A is toxic starting at 20,000 IU. "People who have been somewhat abusive of drugs or alcohol have enough liver function compromise that 20,000 IU a day for a couple of weeks could be fatal," Glade said.

High dosages of vitamin D also could hurt people over 40, Glade said. "That level of vitamin D [2,000 IU a day] for a couple of weeks will actually accelerate the person's next heart attack or stroke. It will interact with the average wear and tear of the aorta and the cardiac valves to form crystals and create hardening of the arteries."

Another questionable aspect of the rundown is the intake of oils or what the "Church" calls the "Have-Waste Theory." By consuming clean oils or fats, the theory goes, people could replace older fatty tissues, which Hubbard believed contained toxins from drugs. To this end, the "Church" recommends consuming a combination of safflower, soy, walnut and peanut oils.

But medical experts again question the validity of the theory. "If you're intaking the oils while you're doing the exercise regimen, then the oils that you intake will be burned first and the other, older oils will stay in your body," said Glade. "And if you're consuming them while not exercising, that oil will be stored, and it won't make any difference what fat burns when."

Science Fiction
The "Church" of Scientology does include some cautionary advice to participants. On its copyright page, Clear Body Clear Mind includes the disclaimer: "The Purification program cannot be construed as a recommendation of medical treatment or medication and it is not professed as a physical handling for bodies nor is any claim made to that effect. There are no medical recommendations or claims for the Purification program or for any of the vitamin or mineral regimens described in this book."

The "Church" also marshal some doctors to support the "purification rundown," but often these physicians themselves have ties to the "Church". The "Church" supplied us a report entitled "Summaries of Published Papers Regarding the Hubbard Detoxification Method." But of the seven journal articles listed, three were co-authored by Megan Shields, a doctor who wrote the introduction to Clear Body Clear Mind and has close ties to the "Church".

Another cited article did not show up on two major indexes of medical journals which we examined. MedLine, an on-line database, draws from 3,500 of the most important medical journals, and Ulrich's International Periodicals Directory contains information on 165,000 serials published throughout the world. The three other journal entries on the "Church's" list did not appear on MedLine, but were listed in Ulrich's.

Another problem is the apparent confusion among some "Church" members in distinguishing between Hubbard's religious views and his science-fiction fantasies. In the mid-1960s, according to some ex-followers, Hubbard taught that humans were made of clusters of spirits -- or "thetans" -- that were banished to earth some 75 million years ago by a cruel galactic ruler name Xenu. Hubbard supposedly saw these thetans as a cause for human unhappiness which needed to be brought under control.
"If it had just been concerned with all of Hubbard's scifi rubbish, Scientology would not be so harmful," argued ex-member Dennis Erlich. "But the problem was that as the "Church" became more established, the organization became more authoritarian and essentially dangerous. Those who disagreed with Hubbard paid the price."

Jerry Whitfield, the former "Church" member with the damaged liver blamed the "Church" for holding to Hubbard's outdated theories and ignoring new medical evidence on vitamin intake. "They ignored the potential for liver failure within the program," he. "I'm suffering the consequences of that."
Erlich and Whitfield are only two of many former "Church" members who have criticized the "Church" of Scientology and the "purification rundown." But many other ex-members will not talk publicly, because the litigious "Church" has made examples out of other critics by suing them.
Many news organizations also are hesitant to question the practices of the "Church" of Scientology, apparently for the same reason.
 
Check it....

Purification Rundown - death Terry McCann had his retinas detach while on the purification rundown from all the sweat outs and whatever they
were putting him through. He went blind from this. He went into a depression from this and died or committed suicide.

Purification Rundown - injury

I nearly died on the Purif at the Boston Organization. I didn't know it at the time. I had a heat stroke in the sauna, stopped perspiring, teeth
started chattering, and things kept blacking-out on me, visually. I put on all of my winter clothes and went back into the sauna (I was by myself
at this point, as there was only one other guy on the Purif with me, and our schedules weren't quite the same), and I still felt freezing cold. I
climbed from the basement to the second floor (lots of stairs) where the D of P told me that "the way out is the way through," and that's what
came back from the CS, too. If the Admin who was supposed to see that I got back into the sauna, hadn't violated orders and forcibly pushed
me into a cool shower, I might well have died, "just following orders." I had another heat stroke, or at least heat exhaustion (I had different
symptoms, and the diagnosis varied between the two), in 1990. My last doctor suspected that I have hypothalamus damage - which can be
neither tested nor treated. He checked my electrolyte reports from the last heat stroke, and he said that they didn't seem in a low enough range to have caused the damage he suspects. I've been too embarrassed to tell my doctor about the Purif heat stroke - it may be where I started having these problems - but I can't do a whole lot about it anyway. When I had a heat stroke on the Purif, the D of P was Jeannie Scoglio, the C/S was either Ken Serino or Rick Siegal (spelling?) at Boston Organization. The Admin who pushed me into the shower/saved my life was Rich
Gerard. Otherwise, I'd have died all alone in that sauna in a lonely corner of the Boston Organization basement. I believe that all of these people
are still in Scientology, and most are still at the Boston Organization, Day staff.
 
But hey... Why stop at the above? I think our pal Terril needs all the data he can possibly process! he said he's seeking after all ;)



Serious doubts have been raised over the safety of Narconon treatment and in particular the "New Life Detoxification Program" (the "Purification Rundown" in its original Church of Scientology version). The Oklahoma Board of Mental Health was in no doubt as to the safety of the therapy offered by the Narconon facility at Chilocco and made numerous findings of fact on the subject:
"[T]he Board concludes there is substantial credible evidence, as found by the Board, that the Narconon Program is unsafe and ineffective ...


The Narconon program includes the administration of high doses of vitamins and minerals to the Narconon patient as part of their treatment. The use of high amounts of vitamins and minerals in the amounts described administered by Narconon can be potentially dangerous to the patients of Narconon according to the more credible medical evidence ...
The Narconon program presents a potential risk to the patients of the Narconon program that delayed withdrawal phenomena such as seizures, delirium or hallucination that are occasionally seen several days after cessation of drugs such as benzodiazepines, may be misinterpreted by Narconon's non-medical staff as the effect of mobilizing the drug from fat during the sauna sweat-out procedure period. There is also a potential risk that the reported re-experience of the abused drugs' effect during the sauna sweat-out program may be the result of misinterpreted symptoms of hyperthermia or electrolyte imbalance since vital signs and serum electrolyte levels have not been consistently monitored during the sweat-out procedures or when a student is reporting the phenomena ...


There is credible evidence by way of witness testimony and review of Narconon charts which reflect that there were patients who had psychiatric problems who were taken off of their previously prescribed psychiatric medication who did not do well and subsequently developed psychiatric problems. This evidence indicates a lack of safety and effectiveness in connection with the program.


Clients of Narconon suffering from psychiatric illness, when taken off their prescribed medications, did poorly in the Narconon program and were placed in a segregated facility called destem. This practice endangers the safety, health and/or the physical and mental well being of Narconon's clients.


Narconon's program lacks any acceptable degree of quality control of the sauna temperatures and treatment. Such a lack of control endangers the safety, health and/or the physical or mental well being of its clients ...


During an on-site visit in November 1991 a student was found with a potentially dangerous low level of potassium which could lead to cramps, (muscular, skeletal problems) and cardiac arrhythmia ...


Part of the Narconon treatment program involves touch assists between patients. Touch assists involve massages between patients in rooms by themselves. Narconon has both male and female patients who are involved in the drug and alcohol rehabilitation program. This practice of touch assists could likely lead to improper sexual contact between drug addicts or alcoholics in the process of recovery. An accepted standard in such programs is for the patients to keep their hands to themselves. The practice of touch assists between male and female patients who are recovering drug addicts or alcoholics in private rooms renders the program unsafe in this respect ...


Narconon restricts access by Narconon clients to their personal physicians, family, attorneys, clergy and others by not permitting communications except at limited and designated hours. Such a practice may endanger the physical or mental well being of Narconon's clients.

The Narconon program fails to provide adequate follow-up and treatment for Narconon clients demonstrating abnormal lab tests and other medical problems.


Such failures endanger the safety, health and/or the physical or mental well being of the Narconon clients and is not in accord with acceptable drug and alcohol care and treatment.


There was no evidence that the Narconon staff inventoried and verified the medications brought on to the campus by Narconon clients. Such a failure endangers the safety, health and/or the physical or mental well being of Narconon's clients ...


Narconon clients are routinely administered clonidine. Narconon fails to provide adequate supervision for clients prescribed this medication given this drug's risks and potential for adverse consequences. Such failure to adequately supervise endangers the safety, health and/or the physical or mental well being of the Narconon clients ...


Large doses of niacin are administered to patients during the Narconon program to rid the body of radiation. There is no credible scientific evidence that niacin in any way gets radiation out of the patient's body. Rather, the more credible medical evidence supports the existence of potential medical risks to persons receiving high doses of niacin ...


No scientifically well-controlled studies were found that documented the safety of the Narconon program. There are potential dangers from the use of non-medical staff who may be unable to interpret the possibility of seizures, delirious, cardiac arrythmia, or hallucinations that are phenomena associated with the cessation of drugs. There is also a potential risk of the reported reexperience of the abused drug effect during the sauna sweat out program may be the result of misinterpreted symptoms of hyperthermia or electrolyte imbalance. Moreover, the multiple findings of fact heretofore entered by the Board establish that Narconon's program is not safe ...


The Board concludes that the program offered by Narconon-Chilocco is not medically safe. "
http://www.solitarytrees.net/cowen/essays/narconon/91report.html
)

Some of the points made by the Board were amplified in correspondence between Robert W. Lobsinger, editor of The Newkirk Herald Journal, and medical authorities. The use of massive doses of niacin and other vitamins (so-called "vitamin bombs" or "megavitamins") attracted particular comment:
"Excesses of Vitamin A can cause brain swelling (pseudotumor cerebri) with transient losses of vision. Niacin does increase vascular circulation but in the acid form, it has been linked to high bilirubin (jaundice) and liver damage. It has been linked to psychiatry in that it cured pellegra psychoses, a niacin deficiency. However illness may be based on both excesses and deficiencies. A person can die of dehydration (lack of water) or can drown (an excess of water). The appropriate USC of niacin is in deficiency states. Excessive use can be toxic to the liver. The American Academy of Pediatrics has issued a series of position statements over the past decade speaking against the use of megavitamin and trace element therapies for various childhood behavioral and mental aspects, with strong emphasis on adversive reactions to excesses. These statements would apply to Hubbard's claims. The Niacin theory is just that, a theory, without any basis for the concept of "turning on and turning off."
Excesses of various minerals can cause GI problems and, of more concern can cause kidney problems including kidney stones."
(William B. Svoboda, pediatric neurologist, Wichita, Kansas - letter to R.W. Lobsinger, 30 April 1990)
"This "purification" or "detoxification" program is claimed to help "clear" the mind of toxins such as drugs, pesticides and chemical pollutants. It consists of large doses of niacin, vegetable oil, exercise and "low temperature" saunas. According to the followers of L. Ron Hubbard, the large doses of niacin works by stimulating the release of fat into the blood stream and this is accompanied by various "toxins" trapped in the body's fatty tissues. According to science, large doses of niacin actually block the release of fat from fat cells. This has been observed both at rest [Acta Medica Scandinavia 1962, 172(suppl):641] and during exercise [D. Jenkins, Lancet 1965,1307]. In other words, the scientific evidence shows that the exact opposite of what Hubbard's theory predicts. There is no credible support for claims that large doses of niacin clear toxins from the brain, fatty tissue or any other part of the body.
To make matters worse, large doses of niacin are hepatotoxic and can cause serious liver damage. It may also trigger gout, raise blood sugar into the diabetic range, cause itching, flushing and a rash. Nausea and gastritis are other side effects of large doses of niacin. To subject people to these potentially serious side effects on the pretense that they are being "detoxified", "cleared" or "purified" is quackery."
(James J. Kenney, Ph.D., R.D., National Council Against Health Fraud, Santa Monica, CA - letter to Dr. John Chelf, copied to R.W. Lobsinger, 5 January 1991)
"In addition there are aspects of the program which I find medically unsafe. Specifically running in a vinyl sweat suit followed by a Sauna from 140 to 180† from four to five hours a day certainly is going to cause dehydration and possibly heat injury in some patients. The author even notes this on page 168 when he discusses sodium chloride and potassium replacement, stating "it is not mandatory for every individual on the program, it is only necessary as a treatment if the symptom of salt depletion, heat exhaustion occur". This suggests that the author expects that in many cases heat exhaustion will occur. Any treatment which leads to heat exhaustion is unsound and unsafe.
The author further states "before beginning the Purification Program a person must first get a written medical officer OK". It seems quite apparent that medical officer does not equate with medical doctor or physician as the author on page 177 goes on to say "the medical officer gives a person an OK to go on to the program after insuring the person's blood pressure is normal and he is not anemic. The medical officer does these checks himself where he is trained to do so". Therefore, it seems medically unqualified persons are going to be supervising this program which I think is quite dangerous."
(C. Mark Palmer, M.D., Ponca City, Oklahoma - letter to R.W. Lobsinger, 14 August 1989)

The 1974 report to the California State Department of Health specifically emphasized this latter point, which appears also to have been behind the June 1996 decision of the Russian Ministry of Public Health and Medical Industry to ban the purification/detoxification process outright:
"Detoxification procedures should be stopped on the premises since their procedures are without proper medical supervision and may be dangerous."
[Outline for recovery, House Evaluation ("Tennant Report") - by Forrest S. Tennant, Jr., M.D., Dr.P.H., Jane Thomas, R.N., Mike Reilly, and Joseph Shannon, M.D., M.P.H. Submitted to Don Z. Miller, Deputy Director, Health Treatment System, State Department of Health, Sacramento, CA, on 31 Oct 1974.]
 
You have an URL re LSD not being fat soluble?

More of "Do my groundwork for me", terril? Proof of this would have taken you 12 seconds on a Google search, you know. Not to mention that the evidence already existed in past posts. Why the redundancy?

Terril park said:
I probably would get a masters in bio-chemistry to follow this through completely. I'll persue as I have time.

And in the meantime it looks like you're set to praise LRH, grasp at the thin straw he was "onto something" and get others to do your footwork. Sad, terril. In the meantime, you have no papers in any kind of bio-anything, but you want to exault the "benefits" of the purif... That dog won't hunt, Terril.
 

oudeis

Patron
By Lori Bishop & Sarah Hughes [/B]


Jerry Whitfield sat in his doctor's waiting room with his head in his hands. The news wasn't good. The medical tests showed that Whitfield's liver was damaged. It would never by fully functional again. What was less clear was why.

Twenty-five years ago, Whitfield had suffered from Hepatitis B, a possible cause of his liver ailment. But he also had been a member of the "Church" of Scientology for 10 years.

During that time, he had undergone what is called the "purification rundown," a regimen that the "Church" claims will "assist in releasing and flushing out of the body the accumulated toxic residue which may be lodged in the tissues."

The controversial program puts a member through two or more weeks of running, lengthy sauna treatments, a special diet, and high doses of vitamins and minerals, including niacin.
(Snip)
Jerry Whitfield, the former "Church" member with the damaged liver blamed the "Church" for holding to Hubbard's outdated theories and ignoring new medical evidence on vitamin intake. "They ignored the potential for liver failure within the program," he. "I'm suffering the consequences of that."
Erlich and Whitfield are only two of many former "Church" members who have criticized the "Church" of Scientology and the "purification rundown."


So. Jerry Whitfield, ex-druggie and hepatitis sufferer, thinks it must have been the niacin or the sauna that wrecked his liver, not the drugs or the hep virus.
And Dennis Ehrlich thinks the Purif. RD might have something to do with his burst appendix (two weeks after the fact).

:no: Some guys have more balls than a bowling alley.
 

tarbaby

Patron with Honors
And Dennis Ehrlich thinks the Purif. RD might have something to do with his burst appendix (two weeks after the fact).
Some guys have more balls than a bowling alley.

It doesn't take balls. Although, yes, I do have them.

But see, oud, in America we are allowed think whatever we want. That probably seems odd to you. But we get used to it after a while.

Dennis
 

Terril park

Sponsor
OB
More of "Do my groundwork for me", terril? Proof of this would have taken you 12 seconds on a Google search, you know. Not to mention that the evidence already existed in past posts. Why the redundancy?
BB
Thanks all who put in valuble URLs and data.

On this forum It may be possible for even more politeness than we have now.

Takes me more than 12 seconds to read one URL.

I'm a well educated layman re nutrition. In the UK media we have contradictory
reports of optimum nutrition on almost a daily basis. In europe, and in second attempt in US laws against anything more than minimal vitamins are in progress , realised or attempted.

Testing on medicines, nutrition is a long slow process. The recent revelations re Glucosime etc were noted 3 decades ago. Only gone mainstream in the last 5 years or so.

Vitamins are long ago established as essential to life, and is an area still not fully researched. The use of vitamins is under continual PR attack in the UK.
I suspect also the US.

Follow the money. Vits don't provide it.

http://www.freewebs.com/techoutsidethecofs

http://internationalfreezone.net
 
OB
More of "Do my groundwork for me", terril? Proof of this would have taken you 12 seconds on a Google search, you know. Not to mention that the evidence already existed in past posts. Why the redundancy?
BB
Thanks all who put in valuble URLs and data.

On this forum It may be possible for even more politeness than we have now.

Nice try as a backhanded admonishment, Terril, but the fact is, that if you're going to be playing in the arena of public opinion, you have to come to grips with the fact that some people are going to disagree strongly with you, which is what's happening now. I'll pull no puches with you as far as the FAQ and guidelines allow. That's my right as dictated by admin. That you don't like being called on BS or you expect someone to take a sugary-sweet approach to you while you're pumping sunshine up their butts, well, I'd say that's your issue. I mean, come on.. after 6 years+ of posting to boards defending Hubbard and the tech, you should know by now that what I'm saying and how I'm presenting it is far from "harsh".

Terril park said:
Takes me more than 12 seconds to read one URL.

But not the summary of it, I'd wager. When I'm seriously looking for a tidbit of info on Google, I don't do the search and run to the URL referred page to scan through it, I look at the summary of the content first to see if it's what I actually need.

Terril park said:
I'm a well educated layman re nutrition.

In the end though that's all you are, is a layman. I know someone who is a superb layperson in certain historical matters, but you'll never hear them speaking at a symposium on the matter, because they don't have the acknowledged certification in the matter to be given the credibility of their knowledge. That's just how it goes. You can be a layman until the cows come home, but it don't matter squat if is not worth anything in the matter of having your words count for something in the pages of history. I mean, we're not likely to see your lay experience published in JAMA, are we?

Terril park said:
In the UK media we have contradictory
reports of optimum nutrition on almost a daily basis.

Yet you seem to imply that it's a problem without rather than within. There are any number of reasons profesionals can't reach a consensus on an issue, and this is even assuming that you're confining your statement to professionals and not laymen.

Terril park said:
In europe, and in second attempt in US laws against anything more than minimal vitamins are in progress , realised or attempted.

Sorry, Terril, but the whole above sentence is nonsensical to me. It simply doesn't read well at all. perhaps you should reword it to make it a tad more clear.

Terril park said:
Testing on medicines, nutrition is a long slow process. The recent revelations re Glucosime etc were noted 3 decades ago. Only gone mainstream in the last 5 years or so.

This statement kinda falls flat in regards to what I've already stated; that at least there's some measure of forward thinking and ongoing evaluation of such things in the Wog world. In the Hubbardian realm, it's totally stagnant and not to be tampered with.

Terril park said:
Vitamins are long ago established as essential to life, and is an area still not fully researched. The use of vitamins is under continual PR attack in the UK.

I suspect also the US.

Oops.. One of those "wiggle statements"... "I suspect". Sorry Terril, if you wanna throw the accusation at the wall and make it stick, you need a little more mortar between the bricks to make it stick than "I suspect". Also, from where I sit, the last I looked, I didn't live in the UK. Things are approached quite differently here than they are there in regards to vitamin research, testing and approval of not only the vitamins, but all suppliments, herbals and homeopathic substances.

Terril park said:
Follow the money. Vits don't provide it.

Do you think you could actually come out and say what you mean instead of a vague generality as above, please? "Follow the money"? Meaning what? That could be taken to mean there's some kind of motherlode cash cow in the vitiman industry, it could mean that there is squat in it too, resulting in a lacsidasical approach to the subject. Clarify. I've already stated that the cash found in vitamins is minimal at best, since they're already existing compounds whose overall effects are well known, that there's no R&D costs to truly recoup, so if you're saying the above in the vein that there's a cash cow in vitimans, then you're just being redundant for the sake of doing so. If you have something really new and stimulating to bring to the table, then by all means do so.

However, for now let's bring it right back home to where you've helped the subject stray from; Narconon. Fact of the matter is, that there's overwhelming evidence, testimonials and statements against Narconon as a safe, effectve and sound answer to drug and alcohol rehab, period. Strip away the coerced attestments and testimonials from not only those who participate in the program, but also develop and provide Narconon "services", especially those with a vested interest in the continued sham of Narconon, those who not only stand to make thousands of dollars from the scam while issuing inflated, deceptive and misleading stats regarding effectiveness, but also have an inroad to raw meat while people are in the program and are at their most vunerable.

Any drug rehab program that fleeces people in need for $22,000 up front in a time of personal crisis and when they're at they're lowest ebb ought to be ashamed of itself. It's predatory and exploitive, and that's even before the Niacin and Cal-Mag begin to flow. Why does almost half the money in Narconon "fees" per patient wind up in the hands of the RTC? Why are Narconon staffers paid crap wages of approx. $50/week? Why do most Narconon staffers NOT have proper training in drug rehab or even first aid? Why were two of the only "clinical reviews" of the Narconon program sponsored by Narconon itself? Why are those reviews almost two decades out of date?

Tech goes in, cash goes out. As you said, follow the money.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
OB
On this forum It may be possible for even more politeness than we have now.
Nice try as a backhanded admonishment, Terril, but the fact is, that if you're going to be playing in the arena of public opinion, you have to come to grips with the fact that some people are going to disagree strongly with you, which is what's happening now.
BB
Wasn't any attempt to criticise you. Merely a wish for better comm. You do good. :)
OB
I'll pull no puches with you as far as the FAQ and guidelines allow. That's my right as dictated by admin. That you don't like being called on BS or you expect someone to take a sugary-sweet approach to you while you're pumping sunshine up their butts, well, I'd say that's your issue. I mean, come on.. after 6 years+ of posting to boards defending Hubbard and the tech, you should know by now that what I'm saying and how I'm presenting it is far from "harsh".
BB
True. :)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Terril park
In europe, and in second attempt in US laws against anything more than minimal vitamins are in progress , realised or attempted.
OB
Sorry, Terril, but the whole above sentence is nonsensical to me. It simply doesn't read well at all. perhaps you should reword it to make it a tad more clear.
BB
It will be illegal soon to take amounts of vitamins many feel optimum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Terril park
Testing on medicines, nutrition is a long slow process. The recent revelations re Glucosime etc were noted 3 decades ago. Only gone mainstream in the last 5 years or so.
This statement kinda falls flat in regards to what I've already stated; that at least there's some measure of forward thinking and ongoing evaluation of such things in the Wog world. In the Hubbardian realm, it's totally stagnant and not to be tampered with.
BB
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terril park
Vitamins are long ago established as essential to life, and is an area still not fully researched. The use of vitamins is under continual PR attack in the UK.

I suspect also the US.
Oops.. One of those "wiggle statements"... "I suspect". Sorry Terril, if you wanna throw the accusation at the wall and make it stick, you need a little more mortar between the bricks to make it stick than "I suspect". Also, from where I sit, the last I looked, I didn't live in the UK. Things are approached quite differently here than they are there in regards to vitamin research, testing and approval of not only the vitamins, but all suppliments, herbals and homeopathic substances.
BB
No. Your government is attempting strict control of vits. Guess I'll have to dig up an URL or two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terril park
Follow the money. Vits don't provide it.
BB
Pharmaceutical companies can't make money from and patent Vits. Nor
can they from herbal items such as St Johns Wort, established as superior to
alternative drugs. Thus they attempt to ban them, isolate the effective chemicals and patent and make money from them.

OB
Do you think you could actually come out and say what you mean instead of a vague generality as above, please? "Follow the money"? Meaning what?
BB
I'll go vaguely conspiracy theory. Vits handle much body problems. Those interested in selling drugs won't like that. The validity of vits is well established. But is still attacked.
OB
Tech goes in, cash goes out. As you said, follow the money.

BB
I agree in general with your criticisms. I would though like a solid stat on those harmed by purif.

How many? How much harm?

http://www.freewebs.com/techoutsidethecofs

http://internationalfreezone.net
 
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