Nation Of Islam Member joins the discussion

[La La Lou Lou]

Really? EVERY Muslim (adherent of that religion) I've asked says that the koran is holy, true and must be followed. Please introduce us to these other Muslims. IF you actually know any that feel otherwise...

I'll wait...

Perhaps they did say that but they didn't chop your head off did they?

Just how many Muslims do you know?

Any questioned Muslim will tell you as they swig at their lager that the book must be followed. But they do not, they eat ham pizza during Ramadam and go off to pray dressed in their best robes on Friday.

Many strict American Christians will tell you that they believe every word of the Bible and then wear polyester-cotton shirts.

Life just is not the bloodbath you see. There are millions of Muslim people in the UK, Germany, France etc etc sometimes there is fear of Nationalist groups and their Islamaphobia, I fear white supremacists, not the thousands of Muslims that I see every day.

 

[Enthetan]

So a practising Jew who opposes slavery is not actually "religiously Jewish"?

Lots of religious people believe things contrary to what their supposed "holy books" say. To deny their existence is absurd.

Slave-owning is not a mandatory part of of the Jewish faith. The Old Testament has passages detailing the proper treatment of slaves and servants, but does not say that you MUST own slaves in order to be a proper Jew.

Somebody who was born into the Jewish religion but is an atheist would not be "religiously Jewish".

Somebody who was born Christian but did not believe that Jesus actually existed would not be "religiously Christian".

Somebody who was born Muslim, but did not believe that Mohammed was a prophet, nor that the Qur'an was dictated by God would not be "religiously Muslim".

Now, a Muslim who opposed slavery would not be a proper Muslim, because the Qur'an explicitly says that Mohammed is (Qur'an 33:21) "an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much". Mohammed is the ideal man, and Mohammed was a slave owner, therefore saying that slavery is inherently bad would imply that Mo was less than ideal.

 

[Lone Star]

I think this young lady nails the Quranic/Islam "Religion of the Peace" for what it truly is quite nicely....(She prefers the Old Testament, which is of course full of Peace....Lol....) (Oh and bacon would be equally offensive to the OT....Lol.....)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htshvId51UE

 

[OhMG]

I think this young lady nails the Quranic/Islam "Religion of the Peace" for what it truly is quite nicely....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htshvId51UE

I figured out what the mis-translation is. It is the religion of PIECES (as in tear non-believers to pieces)

 

[La La Lou Lou]

A person may be ethnically Muslim (ie, come from an Islamic culture) and yet not be religiously Muslim (believe that the Qur'an is the revealed word of Allah, as dictated to Mohammed). By "Muslim" both OhMG and I are referring to the religiously Muslim.

Someone who is religiously Muslim is obligated to support jihad, whether by direct participation or indirect support (e.g. sending money to charities which covertly fund jihad).

You mean in the same way as the Catholics financed the IRA, getting donations in New York bars and thus the many terrorist acts in London Belfast etc.

Enthetan talk about something you have some experience of not read about. And I don't mean the one Muslim you once shook hands with.

Now at no time did you or your Islamaphobic mate ever mention that you were only talking about the super religious ones that try to apply every word. Even the Taliban break the rules continuously.

Most Muslims in the UK are as religious as the two or three Christians we have. Religious maniacs are just that, and are a very small minority, and they are bonkers whatever their religion.

I don't like any religion, I would prefer to live without them, but I have no fear of women wearing yards and yards of black polyester or men wearing polycotton robes with tracksuits under, and a nylon windcheater over the top with trainers. It might be a frightening mixture of cultural styles but the people do not frighten me. I couldn't give a damn about Hadiths that say this or that, there's plenty of nasty stuff in the old testament too. Look most of the people who came to Europe from Islamic countries did it so they they could eat or even have a cigarette before dark during Ramadan, or have a drink or a girl friend.

I really don't get why you insist on trying to make people terrified by this 'threat' to your way of life. We in Europe are alive, we have not been beheaded, or otherwise Jihaded. Muslims are people, they eat, they breath, they sometimes drink, dance, I know families where some are quite strict and others are very anti religious, I know one lady who wears black with just her eyes showing, while she works in a shop, but she takes her son to watch football wearing tee shirt and jeans. I know gay and lesbian Muslims, I even know a Muslim drag queen. Muslims are people.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Slave-owning is not a mandatory part of of the Jewish faith. The Old Testament has passages detailing the proper treatment of slaves and servants, but does not say that you MUST own slaves in order to be a proper Jew.

Somebody who was born into the Jewish religion but is an atheist would not be "religiously Jewish".

Somebody who was born Christian but did not believe that Jesus actually existed would not be "religiously Christian".

Somebody who was born Muslim, but did not believe that Mohammed was a prophet, nor that the Qur'an was dictated by God would not be "religiously Muslim".

Now, a Muslim who opposed slavery would not be a proper Muslim, because the Qur'an explicitly says that Mohammed is (Qur'an 33:21) "an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much". Mohammed is the ideal man, and Mohammed was a slave owner, therefore saying that slavery is inherently bad would imply that Mo was less than ideal.

So why then did many Islamic countries ban slavery?

 

[La La Lou Lou]

So a practising Jew who opposes slavery is not actually "religiously Jewish"?

Lots of religious people believe things contrary to what their supposed "holy books" say. To deny their existence is absurd.

Don't forget the Jewish punishment for adultery, or mentioning the name of God out loud, I believe that Jesus never repealed this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDe9msExUK8

 

[SpecialFrog]

Slave-owning is not a mandatory part of of the Jewish faith. The Old Testament has passages detailing the proper treatment of slaves and servants, but does not say that you MUST own slaves in order to be a proper Jew.

The Torah makes it pretty clear that owning slaves is okay. If you are against anyone owning slaves (as opposed to the imaginary position of only being against owning them oneself) and think that people who try to own slaves should be punished, this is not a view compatible with "God's law".

Additionally, the Torah says that being a proper Jew involves a large number of animal sacrifices.

Judaism has a long tradition of coming up with good reasons to ignore parts of scripture.

The Catholic church teaches an extremely non-literal version of the Bible and it is unreasonable not to consider them Christian, IMO.

Muslims are no different. You can be a Muslim who believes the Shahada but chooses to ignore some of what that arguably entails. People do this. It is a real thing.

Whether these people are "real" Muslims is of course debatable. However, lots of Sunnis don't consider Shia to be real Muslims.

You are welcome to declare yourself the authority on who is and isn't Muslim but I would suggest that it is more complicated than you seem to think it is.

I acknowledge that there one key difference with Islam in that the Quran is claimed to be more accurate than the Jewish and Christian scriptures because the earliest versions are less far removed from their source than the Torah and Gospels are. This makes fundamentalism a bit more viable than it is within Christianity and Judaism.

However, less fundamentalist interpretations exist and have done so for most of Islamic history.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

 

[Man de la Mancha]

I figured out what the mis-translation is. It is the religion of PIECES (as in tear non-believers to pieces)

I thought it would be hard to find a well made video explaining the true history of Islamic atrocities commited upon the entire non-Islamic world (i.e. "Jihad"). I found one on my first yutube search, and this guy is 100% dead-on correct (with the possible exception of blaming them for 9-11). Certainly worth watching, especially if you believe the BS about the "religion of peace" and those "evil crusaders".[video=youtube;t_Qpy0mXg8Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y[/video]

 

[La La Lou Lou]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUzeWoFzfBQ

 

[OhMG]

Really? EVERY Muslim (adherent of that religion) I've asked says that the koran is holy, true and must be followed. Please introduce us to these other Muslims. IF you actually know any that feel otherwise...

I'll wait...

Times up.

Bzzt. There is a nice parting gift for you backstage.

 

[Enthetan]

I really don't get why you insist on trying to make people terrified by this 'threat' to your way of life. We in Europe are alive, we have not been beheaded, or otherwise Jihaded. Muslims are people, they eat, they breath, they sometimes drink, dance, I know families where some are quite strict and others are very anti religious, I know one lady who wears black with just her eyes showing, while she works in a shop, but she takes her son to watch football wearing tee shirt and jeans. I know gay and lesbian Muslims, I even know a Muslim drag queen. Muslims are people.

I'm not talking about Muslims. I'm talking about Islam.

I'm not talking about people, I am talking about ideology.

I realize that there are many people who grew up under Islam who do not take it seriously. I'm not talking about them.

In Scientology we had lots and lots of people who were not comfortable about forced abortions. We had people who didn't like the idea of having to disconnect from family. We had lots of people who did not like the idea of "fair gaming" people, and playing dirty tricks on people who spoke out against Scn abuses.

But guess what? While they were in, they would not openly oppose the "true believers". They COULD NOT openly oppose the "true believers" without being ostracized from the Scn community, being labeled "traitors to the religion", and having bad things happen to them. Because those practices were part of the religion. It was there in Green on White and Red on White. They had no grounds for opposing the practices. And so they averted their eyes.

 

[Enthetan]

So why then did many Islamic countries ban slavery?

It was seriously bad PR with the West. It was Western military force, primarily from the Brits, which got the ball rolling.

Saudi Arabia did not officially ban slavery until 1962, just over 50 years ago. Oman officially abolished it in 1970, Mauritania 1981. Sudan STILL has slave markets.

[video=youtube;pOPD7_SCFNA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOPD7_SCFNA[/video]

Slavery, in the form of debt bondage, still exists in Pakistan.

 

[OhMG]

It was seriously bad PR with the West. It was Western military force, primarily from the Brits, which got the ball rolling.

Saudi Arabia did not officially ban slavery until 1962, just over 50 years ago. Oman officially abolished it in 1970, Mauritania 1981. Sudan STILL has slave markets.

Slavery, in the form of debt bondage, still exists in Pakistan.

Correct.

Here's more data: http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2010/07/slavery-in-muslim-majority-countries

 

[La La Lou Lou]

I'm not talking about Muslims. I'm talking about Islam.

I'm not talking about people, I am talking about ideology.

I realize that there are many people who grew up under Islam who do not take it seriously. I'm not talking about them.

In Scientology we had lots and lots of people who were not comfortable about forced abortions. We had people who didn't like the idea of having to disconnect from family. We had lots of people who did not like the idea of "fair gaming" people, and playing dirty tricks on people who spoke out against Scn abuses.

But guess what? While they were in, they would not openly oppose the "true believers". They COULD NOT openly oppose the "true believers" without being ostracized from the Scn community, being labeled "traitors to the religion", and having bad things happen to them. Because those practices were part of the religion. It was there in Green on White and Red on White. They had no grounds for opposing the practices. And so they averted their eyes.

OK so what is all your Islam bashing actually about Enthetan?

If you understand that Muslims are humans why the demonisation?

Muslim is a wonderful generalisation. It only works when you don't actually know anyone who is a Muslim. my friend the Pakistani drag queen would go to the police if he saw violations of human rights, as would most Muslims I know. it's no easier being a Muslim Drag Queen than a scientologist one. Coming out to Muslim parents is more difficult than to atheist parents, and coming out to scientologist parents would be hell, I'll grant you that, but gay Muslims are coming out of the closet. Enthetan I do live in the real world not in a library.

You are obsessed with ideology, Islam = Communism = Nazism. A does not equal A.

So what are you trying to prove, that Somalia is about take over the West? In the name of Christianity most countries in Africa have made homosexuality illegal and several are trying to bring in the death sentence, right now the police of several African countries do not investigate the deaths of know gay people. Is that ideology or religion? It's certainly not very fluffy.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Correct.

Here's more data: http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2010/07/slavery-in-muslim-majority-countries

I'll let you into a secret...

Her Majesty's government didn't ban slavery in the UK till 2010!

http://www.forteantimes.com/strangedays/mythbusters/3985/slavery.html

 

[La La Lou Lou]

It was seriously bad PR with the West. It was Western military force, primarily from the Brits, which got the ball rolling.

Saudi Arabia did not officially ban slavery until 1962, just over 50 years ago. Oman officially abolished it in 1970, Mauritania 1981. Sudan STILL has slave markets.

[video=youtube;pOPD7_SCFNA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOPD7_SCFNA[/video]

Slavery, in the form of debt bondage, still exists in Pakistan.

I presume you are talking about North Sudan, a country just began. Dust really hasn't settled there. I am sure they do have slave markets, and they also have slaves in non Islamic areas, most of your chocolate is farmed using slaves in West Africa. But Saudi did free its slaves and you can see Sudanese ladies selling grilled corn on street corners who had once been slaves. Believe me they couldn't care less about what the West thinks, we need the oil, they do as they please. By the way the Arab concept of slave is very different to the US Plantation concept. A slave in the middle east is part of the family and is respected as such. That doesn't mean it's OK, it does mean that the word has a very different meaning.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/content.asp?CategoryID=11641&gclid=CK7c0oGtsLkCFQ_LtAodZTIA1Q

 

[TG1]

All ideologies suck.

Everybody STFU.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Are you talking about $cn, or Islam? Muslim slave traders have been kidnapping, enslaving, raping, and murdering black Africans for over a thousand years, continue to do it to this day, and say they cannot prohibit slavery because Mohammed himself did it, so therefore it must be OK.

TGI is right, let's get back to the thread, there is a world of difference between Islam and NOI, it's like comparing the CoS with the Catholic Church, they both have a word in common, that's about all. East African slave traders are not NOI, and they have not been enslaving men for a thousand years. Arab slave traders have been operating in Sub-Saharan Africa for a very long time it's true just as North African slave traders once used to operate in Ireland and the UK. This thread is about the Nation of Islam which is not Islam any more than CoS is a church.

 

[Lone Star]

All ideologies suck.

Everybody STFU.

"They're all used to words like....Ideology" :wink2:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkzb656WVuQ