NBC interview: Marty Rathbun & cult harassment.. YT vids being taken down..

[SPsince83]

You really need to give specifics with such charges. Your
accusations won't qualify as anything to do with "natural
justice" otherwise.

AFAIK there are not even any accusations that Marty was
involved with Murder. Even supposing CO$ was involved in
such matters I can't see them involving their Inspector General.

Kidnapping probably dosn't fly. He persuaded Annie Broeker
to return. Extortion: Not sure whether his actions with regard to
Minton would count. If someone else remembers this better than
I maybe they can speak up if they don't try to start the
Minton Wars again. You know how that annoys She Who Must
Be Obeyed.

Blackmail: This could have happened re IRS. No evidence has
ever been given. However I believe its past the statute of
limitation now and this may be one of his weapons in Monique's
lawsuits. Would probably implicate DM. This could give a result
everyone wants here, loss of Tax exemption. Marty has been
good at holding his cards close to his chest.

I said over and over that I am making no specific charges. Areal investigation has been needed for decades. The general run of criminality in the exec strata is known. What Miscavidge doees is assault and battery. When someone screams in your face it is assault without battery. The hole seems to me to be wrongful imprisonment at the least. I am not a federal prosecutor. I am not elucidating a bill of particulars. I am suggesting a prosecutor could probably get Marty in the witness chair against Miscavidge. Marty would of course have to come clean or the defense lawyers would impeach him. I don't know if Marty has told everything or not.


I do know that unless one has immunity that unless the statute of limitations has run out on an offense your remorse alone does not absolve you. Also if you assist a criminal before or after the crime you are guilty of that crime. And in RICO specific crimes are not the issue. Pattern of corruption is. And leaders of a corrupt organization need not be convicted of a specific crime but on the overall criminal activity of the group.

Is scn a racket? I would say so, wouldn't you? Is it corrupt? Ditto. So then RICO would apply, no? It's still up to a federal prosecutor to bring charges

 

[Terril park]

See the RICO statutes. The pattern of corruption includes him. By virtue of his exalted position he would be guilty of all crimes committed by his subordinates. We know about the hole. Isn't that enough? Is he in no way culpable for false imprisonments? Again, in RICO he only needs to be a known leader of the rackett, which he was. If I were a federal prosecutor I would go after scn with RICO and give Marty immunity for testifying. How is my position unreasonable? Is all this bullshit just because I called Marty a motherfucker?

IANAL. However in CO$ the left hand dosn't always know what
the other left hand is doing. PIs hire other PIs so that management has
deniability. Probably no organisation practices this so assiduously
as CO$.

So I don't know how RICO might affect Marty. And it makes me think
when the FBI found that Paulette Cooper was being set up what
actions were taken. Don't recall. Dosn't that count as RICO?

 

[David C Gibbons]

Personally I'll worry about what person X or Person Y did in the past once the Scientology is destroyed, and Hubbard's mind control schemes no longer are being used to enslave people. The real world legal systems will catch some of the provably guilty ( as determined in courts of law, imperfect though they may be) as and when they can.**

For now anyone who is doing anything to restrict, disempower, defang, unmask, or discredit Scientology is someone I will not attack. Once Scientology's religious cloaking is dismantled, just grievances can be taken up in a sane manner.

Fighting amongst ourselves may be unavoidable,considering our collective history, but keeping it down to a dull roar is a good thing...

** At least real law courts are better than Scientology Committees of Evidence.

 

[Terril park]

There have been previous serious efforts to report things via the FBI and RICO. I cannot state if Marty was or was not personally involved in this, but the efforts were serious and I suspect (but do not know as a fact) that Marty may have tried this direction.

"I saw them in November 2009. I had to give them a history lesson. They had no clue," Marty Rathbun tells me, describing his first meeting with FBI agents. "I told them they were no match for the Church of Scientology."


http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/03/scientology_fbi_investigation_over.php

This article is worth reading again.

 

[SPsince83]

IANAL. However in CO$ the left hand dosn't always know what
the other left hand is doing. PIs hire other PIs so that management has
deniability. Probably no organisation practices this so assiduously
as CO$.

So I don't know how RICO might affect Marty. And it makes me think
when the FBI found that Paulette Cooper was being set up what
actions were taken. Don't recall. Dosn't that count as RICO?

RICO is concerned with the organazation and it's actors. I think it applies to cos. Not being an attorney I could be wrong.If it DOES apply then anyone in the executive strata would be vulnerable. What they did to Paulette was horrible and, I think, a plexus of individual crimes. It might be used to help establish a RICO pattern.

 

[TG1]

I think and hope that RICO charges will eventually be brought against the CoS. For decades, a RICO indictment has been the wettest dream of exes and critics.

But thus far the FBI's investigations of accusations of CoS RICO, human trafficking, and other federal crimes have foundered because the FBI wants more current witnesses of specific federal crimes. Accusations by those who left in 2004, 2006, 2007 aren't current enough for the fibbies, so I've been told by exes who've worked with the FBI on these fronts.

The obvious problem is that current and recent SO members who are acceptable witnesses to recent crimes are too emotionally and mentally fucked up to testify against the cult.

They won't leave or, if they do, they won't talk about what they've seen. As we've all witnessed, it takes a long time for escapees from Miscavige's trusted inner circle to peel the onion of Scientology indoctrination, ideology and fear to talk about what you saw and did inside the cult.

What's also needed is evidence that isn't he said / she said. Video and audio recordings would be delightful.

For now, it's a Mexican standoff between the fibbies and the cult.

 

[Sindy]

RICO is concerned with the organazation and it's actors. I think it applies to cos. Not being an attorney I could be wrong.If it DOES apply then anyone in the executive strata would be vulnerable. What they did to Paulette was horrible and, I think, a plexus of individual crimes. It might be used to help establish a RICO pattern.

Even Tom Cruise would be vulnerable no?

 

[Veda]

Came across this from 2 years and 3 months ago, It's a reminder of Mike Rinder's expressed views (and, although he's absent from the quotes, also Marty Rathbun's expressed views) a relatively short time ago.

He didn't know.​

mrinder December 17, 2012 at 1:11 am

Not sure where you get your information from that LRH approved operations against Paulette Cooper or Gabe Cazares? Or are you asserting this based on the logic of “it was his organization so therefore he knew”?

mrinder December 17, 2012 at 4:42 pm

Clearly you didnt know Mary Sue Hubbard. If you had you would understand how silly this is. He is the LAST person on earth she would tell about illegal actions. Your assumptions are just that, and certainly not based on anything other than “Most dogs are brown. He has a dog. Therefore his dog is brown.” The outpoint in your conclusion is “assume similarities are not similar.”

mrinder December 17, 2012 at 5:24 pm

Yeah, that’s Tonja Burden. Who filed a civil case trying to collect money. There was TONS of shredding done in the paranoia to eradicate anything that gave ANY connection between LRH and the GO. It was nuts and unreal. But I do not believe ANY documents ever indicated any connection between LRH and an “operative” doing some illegal act.

But this is a debate that is pointless continuing. It’s unprovable either way. And no matter what I say, it won’t satisfy those who wish to believe otherwise.​

​

______​

One year ago:

mrinder on March 11, 2014 at 1:48 pm

< snip >

Just for starters, DM most certainly was Action Chief CMO Int. For MANY years. It was where he gained the trust of LRH and LRH started calling him “Misc” and addressing despatches to him that way. One of the few people that LRH addressed on despatches with cc’s to their nickname. Miscavige was NOT Mission IC of “Special Project”, Terri Gamboa was. Miscavige was “Special Pjt Ops” (as in Mission Operator).

Ron absolutely abolished the GO. The Exec Strata was formed and the issues written about it before the formation of OSA. I had personal conversations with LRH about the disbandment of the GO and his desire to see it eradicated entirely as it had become a liability. You do not think that the GO was disbanded without his knowledge and Guardian PL canceled etc etc etc. Where are the docs? They don’t exist, remember, LRH was trying to avoid being connected in any way to the actions of the GO or Mary Sue, he was an unindicted co-conspirator.

Nothing was in writing. And though he had expressed a LOT of disgust about the GO during the “Confront of Evil” period and the formation of the Office of Evaluation and Execution, where it came up routinely that GO staff were employing org staff in their personal business, the reason for disbanding the GO was that they were not protecting him from criminal and civil liability. He considered they had betrayed him (inclusive of Mary Sue).

The idea that he knew nothing about Snow White and the illegal acts that were ongoing is tantamount to saying L. Ron Hubbard was blind, unaware and incapable of spotting an outpoint. That was NOT the case. He was briefed by Mary Sue every single day at lunch during the heyday of the GO Ops — in detail. If she didnt tell him “Joe Blow infiltrated the IRS and got documents” she told him what they knew (if you don’t believe he expected to be briefed about everything the GO was doing, then you also give him less credit than he deserved, he was not one not to be curious) and he would have figured it out. Believe me, the programs and actions written to implement Snow White WERE know[n] and authorized all the way to the top.

LRH directed exactly what was to be done at the Mission Holders Conference in SFO following the one in Clearwater. The whole thing was recorded so it could be sent to him. He listened to it, sent Miscavige and the others commendations and ordered that the entire transcript be published.


​

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...king-derringer&p=967138&viewfull=1#post967138

______​

The only explanation for the change was a change in what Mike Rinder was willing to say. In the top quote he's covering for Ron Hubbard. In the bottom quote he's not covering for Ron Hubbard.

That's a change, a major change, and a change in the right direction. From my observations such changes have been ongoing and continuing, which is why I've recommended patience for those who want more information from either Marty Rathbun (former number 2 in $cientology) or Mike Rinder (former head of OSA).

IMO, it is a reasonable assumption that there are more changes and more revelations to come, and it is not an attack to makes such an assumption.

There are no accusations, from me, accompanying that assumption, just the reasonable expectation that, as time passes, and situations change, that more information will become available.



Thanks to ILove2Lurk for the quotes.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

..

ANSWER: 6

1. PC: The light bulb.

2. AUDITOR: The trained Scientologist that will "listen" to the bulb until the change happens.

3. C/S: The senior technical authority that will know when the PC has reached "EP" and ask them if they want to attest to being changed.

4. EXAMINER: The quality control minister that will authenticate the change by asking "Do you want other light bulbs to be changed?" on an e-meter.

5. SUCCESS OFFICER: The Scientologist that confirms the "win" of an unprecedented, orders-of-magnitude nature.

6. REGISTRAR: The spiritual advisor that makes the final determination if the bulb is changed by asking the bulb if they are now ready to be changed again--and prepared to pre-pay for that re-change today.​

REVISED ANSWER:


ANSWER: 7

1. PC: The light bulb.

2. AUDITOR: The trained Scientologist that will "listen" to the bulb until the change happens.

3. C/S: The senior technical authority that will know when the PC has reached "EP" and ask them if they want to attest to being changed.

4. EXAMINER: The quality control minister that will authenticate the change by asking "Do you want other light bulbs to be changed?" on an e-meter.

5. SUCCESS OFFICER: The Scientologist that confirms the "win" of an unprecedented, orders-of-magnitude nature.

6. REGISTRAR: The spiritual advisor that makes the final determination if the bulb is changed by asking the bulb if they are now ready to be changed again--and prepared to pre-pay for that re-change today.

7. SCIENTOLOGY EXECUTIVE: The fully pan-determined, ethical and at-cause terminal that oversees and determines which of the previous 6 non-ideal beings are responsible for a failure to change the lightbulb properly, thereby sabotaging Ron's road out of the trap. Thereafter, the executive uses ethics gradients & knowingness to select which of those counter-intentioned DBs need to be humiliated, Com Ev'd, RFP'd or Declared SP.

​

Whoa! That feels much better. Now we have a full 7 Division Org Board!

 

[Purple Rain]

I said over and over that I am making no specific charges. Areal investigation has been needed for decades. The general run of criminality in the exec strata is known. What Miscavidge doees is assault and battery. When someone screams in your face it is assault without battery. The hole seems to me to be wrongful imprisonment at the least. I am not a federal prosecutor. I am not elucidating a bill of particulars. I am suggesting a prosecutor could probably get Marty in the witness chair against Miscavidge. Marty would of course have to come clean or the defense lawyers would impeach him. I don't know if Marty has told everything or not.


I do know that unless one has immunity that unless the statute of limitations has run out on an offense your remorse alone does not absolve you. Also if you assist a criminal before or after the crime you are guilty of that crime. And in RICO specific crimes are not the issue. Pattern of corruption is. And leaders of a corrupt organization need not be convicted of a specific crime but on the overall criminal activity of the group.

Is scn a racket? I would say so, wouldn't you? Is it corrupt? Ditto. So then RICO would apply, no? It's still up to a federal prosecutor to bring charges

What are your crimes? What are your crimes? What are your crimes? Crimes, crimes, crimes, crimes, crimes. Oh, where have I heard that before??

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I think and hope that RICO charges will eventually be brought against the CoS. For decades, a RICO indictment has been the wettest dream of exes and critics.

But thus far the FBI's investigations of accusations of CoS RICO, human trafficking, and other federal crimes have foundered because the FBI wants more current witnesses of specific federal crimes. Accusations by those who left in 2004, 2006, 2007 aren't current enough for the fibbies, so I've been told by exes who've worked with the FBI on these fronts.

The obvious problem is that current and recent SO members who are acceptable witnesses to recent crimes are too emotionally and mentally fucked up to testify against the cult.

They won't leave or, if they do, they won't talk about what they've seen. As we've all witnessed, it takes a long time for escapees from Miscavige's trusted inner circle to peel the onion of Scientology indoctrination, ideology and fear to talk about what you saw and did inside the cult.

What's also needed is evidence that isn't he said / she said. Video and audio recordings would be delightful.

For now, it's a Mexican standoff between the fibbies and the cult.

The Feds, after a good number of major FAILS, were finally able to get enough insider information on the MAFIA to bring off a successful prosecution with RICO's far-reaching implications to grab money, assets and send wholesale numbers of the crime families to prison for long sentences.

The problem with the Feds, thus far, is that they haven't figured out how to infiltrate the ultra-paranoid COS (Crimewave of Scientology). In the Mafiia's case, they finally placed (in addition to WIRETAPS) bugs in strategic locations. It was extremely difficult. Then they used those wiretaps to TURN Sammy The Bull Gravano vs the boss. Sammy heard with his own ears the tapes where crime boss John Gotti (his best friend and "loyal" mafia co-conspirator) to trash talk him so thoroughly that Gravano knew it was just a matter of time before Gotti would have him murdered.

That's what the Feds are missing. The incriminating evidence in order to get "loyal officers" to start FLIPPING and ratting out Miscavige. Maybe a few of the top echelon insiders like Jenny Linson & Yaeger, plus some of the PIs they have used for black ops, plus one or two of their dirty-hands attorneys who knows how the money trail works.

In reality, there is NOBODY in Scientology who wouldn't rat out other Scientologists. Scientology Sea Org members are essentially cowards and driven by a palpable fear of what might happen to them if they don't obey authority (COB, RTC, FBI, CIA or any other impressive sounding entity that is "uplines" somewhere).

Scientologists just don't want to be punished by whomever is "uplines" at the moment. That's the sad & hilarious truth about what motivates them sector salvagers. LOL

 

[Emma]

(snip)

IMO, it is a reasonable assumption that there are more changes and more revelations to come, and it is not an attack to makes such an assumption.

There are no accusations, from me, accompanying that assumption, just the reasonable expectation that, as time passes, and situations change, that more information will become available.

This is a good example of the changing mindset of Mike Rinder. I don't think there is any doubt in anyone's mind that in the last 18 months they've both (M & M) changed - a LOT.

Your post is not accusatory and I have no problem with it.

It's the "he's a murderer!" posts that drive me nuts.

 

[JustSheila]

Am I crazy to want to know?

DM, Pat Broeker, and possibly other insiders on the Int Exec team promulgated a decades-long coverup by lying about: 1.) LRH's final years, 2.) his health, 3.) his personal non-attainment of Operating Thetan, 4.) of "dropping the body," and of course, 5.) the missing upper OT levels . . . from 1986 going forward. (Just to mention a few things.)

They had a chance to come clean about LRH's final mental and physical state (which matters!) in 1986 and clear the air. They chose not to. Indefensible!

Marty left in the mid-2000's and distanced himself from the conspiracy, IMO.

I guess the question that would need to be nailed down is: "What did you know and when did you know it?"

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt: maybe Marty found out all about the conspiracy after he left and read about it on the Internet. Perhaps. That's what Mike claims about his own personal knowledge.

I asked Marty once directly on his blog about who exactly where the conspirators who had personal knowledge and hid pertinent facts about LRH's final years and he would not answer up. His silence is telling . . . to me.

I'm curious . . . as the LRH death/upper OT levels "shore stories" have cost people billions in money and many shattered lives and dreams over several decades.

The cabal's silence and made-up shore stories cost me a family and a small fortune. I have skin in the game.

We need to invite Marty over to the ex-board and have him answer some questions, clear the air about some things.
Otherwise, the Marty controversies will follow him until his dying days. Oh, they probably will anyways.

ILove2Lurk,

I've stated before that Marty was mostly on minor posts prior to DMs assumption to power. I met him in 1978 when he had just joined the GO and was working as a Security guard in PAC. He was only in a very short time (a month? two?) when the Colletto suicide/murder occurred and he was smack in the middle of that, since the job he was assigned was to pick up Diane Colletto and bring her home safely because Joe Colletto had a psychotic break, blew the RPF and threatened her.

I was in a relationship (as much as one can be in one without sex, lol!) with another security guard at the time who told me about it the very next morning. He had introduced me to Marty weeks before that.

From there Marty received a lot of auditing and was sort of whisked out of sight for years (he was an eye witness, so PR control and all of that). Karen covered some of it.

Marty was never in the CMO. He was GO/OSA prior to 1986, sometimes with special assignments or missions elsewhere, apparently, but that's not uncommon in the SO. He may have been transferred to other posts, duties and management bodies - I don't know about that as I've never read his books. I know he was not a child when he joined the SO, he was a young man, so never even eligible for CMO so definitely never in it. DM was CMO, and only the CMO and a very limited number of people, but mostly DM and the Broekers had access to Hubbard. Marty never even met Hubbard.

Jesse Prince gives a very a detailed account of Hubbard, the scam, his death, and the ruthless political infighting from management and how DM assumed power, as well as details about the Broekers and what went on in his upcoming book. Jesse WAS there. He was the Inspector General RTC and right in the middle of it. Jesse also has a fabulous memory and provides all sorts of details. I know this because I once was privileged when he allowed me to read the first 30 pages or so of his book. He writes like an angel and the detail is extraordinary. This is the book that answers all those questions. Jesse is now the only person we have who was there through all the Hubbard and management stuff in the 80s and in a position to tell it firsthand and willing to do so. Thank God he has a good mind for details.

Jesse is on FB. He also says his book is coming out very soon.

 

[programmer_guy]

<snip>

Marty was never part of a a dirty cabal of dirty PIs doing criminal acts.
For weeks, months, years of his life he was on legal assignments as the chief Legal officer and
he worked with lawyers morning noon and night.
For 2-3 years he worked on the IRS exemption, again he had nothing to do with shady dirty deeds.

<snip>

http://scientologymoneyproject.com/2014/04/18/time-to-13909-the-church-of-scientology/
!​

Marty did admit to ordering a phone to be wiretapped.
Here is the video of the interview.

http://www.today.com/video/today/57144679/#57144679

 

[Pooks]

I said over and over that I am making no specific charges.

OK, just as I thought. You have no specifics at all.

 

[Veda]

This is a good example of the changing mindset of Mike Rinder. I don't think there is any doubt in anyone's mind that in the last 18 months they've both (M & M) changed - a LOT.

Your post is not accusatory and I have no problem with it.

It's the "he's a murderer!" posts that drive me nuts.

Demonstrating that changing mindset, which seems to have been oddly synchronized with the changes in Marty's mindset - until Marty went of the deep end - is the follow up post to Sneakster's "no illegality" post on the Gerry Armstrong thread.

I was hoping Sneakster would respond before posting the follow up.

Anyway, on the Gerry Armstrong thread is posted a completely opposite statement, from Rinder, from some time later.

Definitely in flux.