Need e-meter and qualified scientology auditor for Saturday June 20

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
Ummm. The 'cans' can pick up *optical* stuff? Gee. Then maybe they should be painted with lowrider black primer before we 'test' them. Although, that might affect the 'conductivity'; unless it was pure *carbon* lampblack...

What the hell is this 'Oxuplse'? Is this something only 'nurses' know about? The thing being 'measured' in the $0.29 fingertip thing you pictured is the changes in IR levels between a tiny LED sender on one side and an equally tiny LED receiver on the other, which uses a leading-edge difference to *count* pulses. There's no such thing as a 'pulse ox' level.

How much oxygen is in the blood *doesn't matter* You could use the same sensor on a *dead* body and just rythmically jump on it enough to change the *optical* distance between the fingertip LED sender and the LED receiver.

You could attach *battery cables* to the toes and it wouldn't change the *optical* characteristics.

Holy Fucking Christ.

Zinj

Jesus H Christ.

Zinj, I'm very disappointed that I have to explain that again.

The argument is not about the oxygen in the blood, nor the cans picking up optical stuff. The point is that there is a MEASURABLE pulsing due to the variation in size of the capillaries in the tip of the finger, just like you can measure your pulse manually at the wrist. This pulsing changes the contact patch area and quality of the skin to can interface.

My point by bringing up the Pulse Ox is that a cheap plastic disposable sensor can pick up your pulse at the tip of your finger. That's a fact. There is a pulse there and with all 10 or 11 of YOUR fingers on the cans at the same time, it's very likely we'll see that effect. I had assumed that this could be a measurable effect, and the Pulse Ox example shows that it can easily be measured.

Also a different effect is the electrical current going to the heart. That can easily be picked up by other medical instruments. It's also likely the e-meter picks that up.

Combine that with micro muscle twitching, the involuntary ideomotor effect, Galvanic Skin Resistance changes, sweat variations, can lead tugging, you have 7 different types of phenomenons that could combine and make noticeable reads.

I predict that we will see some of those using proper experimental controls, that isolate out the other effects. For example the needle test could show the heart electrical signal, because most of the other effects are effaced.

We already saw the needle hardly moves compared to a LOT of motion with dry hands. That is where I DEBUNKED the E-Meter. Face up to it.
:thankyou:
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
AnonOrange said:
The argument is not about the oxygen in the blood, nor the cans picking up optical stuff. The point is that there is a MEASURABLE pulsing due to the variation in size of the capillaries in the tip of the finger, just like you can measure your pulse manually at the wrist. This pulsing changes the contact patch area and quality of the skin to can interface.

I understood that. I say that this is false... I've never seen it. Please get a meter so that you can stop guessing about this stuff.


AnonOrange said:
My point again is that a cheap plastic disposable sensor can pick up your pulse at the tip of your finger. That's a fact. There is a pulse there and all 10 or 11 of YOUR fingers are on the cans at the same time. I had assumed that this could be a measurable effect, and the Pulse Ox example shows that it can easily be measured.

You won't see that on an e-meter. A nurse's wild guess on this is not a good source of info on this topic.


AnonOrange said:
Also a different effect is the electrical current going to the heart. That can easily be picked up by other medical instruments. It's also likely the e-meter picks that up.

Nope. You really should get an e-meter so that you can play around and find out what you want to know. Oops! I forgot... you already know without even doing this.


AnonOrange said:
Combine that with micro muscle twitching, the involuntary ideomotor effect, Galvanic Skin Resistance changes, sweat variations, can lead tugging, you have 7 different types of phenomenons that could combine and make noticeable reads.

Here you have my interest. IOW, there may be more than just GSR going on.


Anyway, get an e-meter to go further on this investigation. Otherwise, you are stalled at this point.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I meant "talk to you on this board," not IRL.

It's a long walk from here to L.A.

Since I am not and have never been anonymous, I usually don't quibble with anonymous posters. However, I am willing to put AO on a meter, with a full room of witnesses, and video from multiple angles. It's a question of where and when since he's on the West coast and I am on the East.

OK. I forgot you were in Florida. Cultzheimer's, as someone here brilliantly coined. :)

Paul
 

HCObringOrder?

Silver Meritorious Patron
Looks to me like the effects described in the last FEW posts are too minor to be measured on an Emeter set properly.
I remember seeing what looked like a rhythmic beating of a heart on a meter I was holding solo. I did not have a spacer between the cans at the time.

I do know that I was able to produce my own FN, and show the LFBD that comes from a big breath filling the body with oxygen.
The under 10% issues talked about here do not seem relevant.
:)
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Looks to me like the effects described in the last FEW posts are too minor to be measured on an Emeter set properly.
I remember seeing what looked like a rhythmic beating of a heart on a meter I was holding solo. I did not have a spacer between the cans at the time.

I just made a video showing how my heartbeat registers or not at higher (meter) sensitivity than normal. It will be on my DOF Meter Videos thread in a few minutes when it has finished uploading.

Paul
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thank you for taking the buckets out Paul. I do appreciate the effort you put into this.

But, Pretty Please, may I ask for a proper dry hand test followed by a wet test, with the same e-meter drills.

After that you can go dance in the rain with the cans.


In response to the above comment, yes the effects mentioned are small, but why does the needle move when the hands are dry and not underwater? The main effect I believe is the ideomotor effect (unconscious gripping).
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
But, Pretty Please, may I ask for a proper dry hand test followed by a wet test, with the same e-meter drills.
No. :)

I can't produce identical reads at will. It's not like wiring up a machine and flicking a switch to get a read, then changing some parameters and flicking the switch again. Maybe in some theory it is, but not in my reality or experience. About the best I can do is to hold the cans and note the needle action, then change the parameters and note the needle action again. You'll note that in the solo cans video the can change didn't make any significant change to the needle action. Well, maybe you won't note that, but I did. :)

Underwater the needle action shows about 5-10% the amplitude of the needle action when in dry air. This is the same as in earlier videos. Agreed here it is mostly my feet, as opposed to earlier videos where it was mostly my hands, but there isn't a lot of difference. The difference with this latest video is that I have the sensitivity up high enough, and my feet and the cans still enough, that you can see the F/Ning needle action, just the same as in dry air.

I could ask, what do you want, BLOOD? But we know the answer to that, although it's your veins in question and not mine.

In response to the above comment, yes the effects mentioned are small, but why does the needle move when the hands are dry and not underwater? The main effect I believe is the ideomotor effect (unconscious gripping).

The exact mechanism is unknown, or at least, not generally agreed upon by those concerned. I know the reading corresponds to mental activity. How it gets from my mind to the needle is not clear, but does it really matter? I would think that the underwater tests show that touching the cans is not necessary (although the amplitude of the variations is only 1/10 or 1/20 of the dry air ones), which would preclude both sweat and the ideomotor effect being relevant.

I'm going shopping now and will be gone for an hour or so.

Paul
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
No. :)
I can't produce identical reads at will. It's not like wiring up a machine and flicking a switch to get a read, then changing some parameters and flicking the switch again. Maybe in some theory it is, but not in my reality or experience.

I'm not asking for anything identical. I just want a clean and complete record that whatever e-meter drill you do will be MUCH less underwater and it should not be if the e-meter measures the body.

Note that RTC claims e-meter reads are "very precise". They are not, and I just want to show that.

About the best I can do is to hold the cans and note the needle action, then change the parameters and note the needle action again. You'll note that in the solo cans video the can change didn't make any significant change to the needle action. Well, maybe you won't note that, but I did. :)

That was expected and I said so. The hands are equally dry, therefore the response is roughly equal. My point about solo canning is that it didn't' make sense from an auditing standpoint.

To further the point, do solo canning underwater. I guarantee you the needle will be absolutely rock solid and wont move one bit.


Underwater the needle action shows about 5-10% the amplitude of the needle action when in dry air. This is the same as in earlier videos. Agreed here it is mostly my feet, as opposed to earlier videos where it was mostly my hands, but there isn't a lot of difference.

Agreed. But what you have not yet realized this is momentous discovery! :clap:


The difference with this latest video is that I have the sensitivity up high enough, and my feet and the cans still enough, that you can see the F/Ning needle action, just the same as in dry air.

Your sensitivity is MAXED out! Past the 32X point. Any little splashes will make it move. It's not because you're "at one with your spiritual inner self". It's still mostly noise.

I could ask, what do you want, BLOOD? But we know the answer to that, although it's your veins in question and not mine.

It might come to that! The vein test will just further my point. I also have to find paste on electrodes.


The exact mechanism is unknown, or at least, not generally agreed upon by those concerned. I know the reading corresponds to mental activity. How it gets from my mind to the needle is not clear, but does it really matter? I would think that the underwater tests show that touching the cans is not necessary (although the amplitude of the variations is only 1/10 or 1/20 of the dry air ones), which would preclude both sweat and the ideomotor effect being relevant.

The relevant mechanism here, the 95% animal, is that the meter moves more when your hands are dry. :clap: :clap: :clap:

We can haggle all day long about the remaining 5%. I have provided some reasons for that movement, but I think the main one is the slight variations in water touching your wrists and shins.

In addition, some of the electricity through the body could also be the cause, like the electrical rush of being caught in a lie.

Don't you now think that auditing underwater is better, because you isolate out artifacts that incorrectly affect the measurements?
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
Are we done with this thread?

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ThisFenceHurts

Patron with Honors
Thank you for taking the buckets out Paul. I do appreciate the effort you put into this.

But, Pretty Please, may I ask for a proper dry hand test followed by a wet test, with the same e-meter drills.

After that you can go dance in the rain with the cans.


In response to the above comment, yes the effects mentioned are small, but why does the needle move when the hands are dry and not underwater? The main effect I believe is the ideomotor effect (unconscious gripping).

Tell us all again why mental phenomena could not affect unconscious gripping?
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
Tell us all again why mental phenomena could not affect unconscious gripping?

Scientologists and Exes on this board repeatedly said that an auditor could easily identify gripping variation in a session and it would not be a problem. I have shown through Paul's video that unconscious gripping does take place and has a big effect on the meter reading. Yes, it is controlled by the brain, either consciously or unconsciously.

But the problem here is that Hubbard himself claimed the meter measured "body mass density changes" and the "mass and energy" of mental pictures. Again, why does the needle mostly stop moving when the cans are underwater, if the meter is supposed to measure the body?

The whole point of my tests are to show that contact quality, which is largely affected by grip and sweat is what mostly affect the E-Meter.
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
Skeptics at the Pub try the Trailer Trash E-Meter!

Last night I went to Brian Dunning's (Skeptoid), Skeptics at the Pub meeting.

Here are some pictures:
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Brian is the one standing in this picture:
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At the end of the meeting we did some Trailer Trash e-metering:
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But here is the funniest picture: THE METER READS 666 !
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Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Straw man is an overstatement. Take along a proper meter and try and trash that. At least it would be somewhat honest.

Paul
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
Straw man is an overstatement. Take along a proper meter and try and trash that. At least it would be somewhat honest.

Paul, I have shown repeatedly that the meter is irrelevant. It's the cans that distort whatever measurement you may have.

You being the person that has run these tests should be the first to see that.

All the skeptics that have tried my setup last night fully realized how important the grip/sweat was to the reading of the meter.

BTW, that little meter has 6 resistance ranges and actually does a pretty good job in measuring the body's resistance.

I had a short list of questions I asked the lady in the pictures and sure enough some made the meter reading fall dramatically.

Questions I asked, based on input from her boyfriend:

1) How old is your car"

2) "How many times have you showered last month". (The answer was actually 3! because she had been on a long hiking trip). She exploded in laughter when I asked the question, which affected the cans and made the meter value drop.

3) "What were you wearing last time you went swimming", got a similar response.
 

CornPie

Patron Meritorious
When I was a kid, it always amazed me when a Ouija Board magically spelled out something significant -- whether 2, or 3, or 4 kids were participating -- with different kids on different days. I half believed it at the time, and I still don't know how it did it so smoothly. Especially sometimes when I'd wrestle to push the thing away from where it 'wanted' to go. It was like it had a mind of it's own.

Maybe the Emeter is like a Ouija Board, without the extra kids. This came to mind as I was reading Margery Wakefield's testimony, quoted and hyperlinked below.

Testimony, by Margery Wakefield -- Chapter 10 -- The Wall of Fire (Solo Emeter Usage)
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefield/testimony-10.html

...I dutifully tried to carry out the complex instructions of the OT3 auditing...
...I took my E-meter into a small room at the Org and sat down at the table...
...My notepaper was placed to my left and I held the Solo can with my right...
...I made my notes with my left...
...With my left hand, I also manipulated the dials of the E-meter...
...I closed my eyes as instructed and tried to locate an entity...
...I had been instructed that I would begin to feel pressures on various parts of my body...
...and that these pressures would be the entities I had to audit...
...I was amazed when I did, in fact, feel a pressure on the top of my head...
...I opened communication (telepathically) with the entity...
...I tried to find out his name...
...I asked him if he had been implanted at the Las Palmas or the Hawaii volcano...
...I watched the E-meter for the reads which would give me my answers.
...In theory, the entity that I had contacted was the one who was actually registering on the E-meter...
...I guided the entity through a complicated set of questions...
...I did this over and over with the entity until I felt a lessening...
...and then a release of the pressure, and the needle on the E-meter was floating...
 
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AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
Maybe the Emeter is like a Ouija Board, without the extra kids. This came to mind as I was reading Margery Wakefield's testimony, quoted and hyperlinked below.

I very much agree with you, particularly for the case of solo auditing. It's the ideomotor effect that makes you unconsciously move the needle the way you want the needle to go. It's really fascinating from a psychology standpoint and a great example of one fooling him/herself.

Ouija boards work the same way. I've worked with competent engineers that think the Ouija board is for real. The effect is that convincing.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Awwwwlllll RIGHT!

I've just come across a fascinating lecture on one of my favorite websites: www.ted.com.

In this lecture, a neuroscientist talks about the connection between the functions of the brain and its structure. The lecture is composed of 1. the point he makes, and 2. the three examples he uses to illustrate his point.

The point he makes in his lecture is not the point I am making in this thread.

However, the first example he uses in his lecture specifically addresses the galvanic skin response to show some of the functions of the parts of the brain.

The information on GSR which this prominent neuroscientist imparts in that first example seems to be in conflict with some of AO's "theories" in this thread!

And thus, AO has some splainin to do!

Because this neuroscientist uses GSR every day to measure the limbic system's response to various stimuli, he is very well versed in the "sweating and unsweating" which occurs and why it occurs.

He gives a very good description of the sweating that AO keeps going on about, but he in no way discounts this as "pseudo-science" as AO loves to do. In fact, his description of GSR and its measurement validates Scientology's use of the Emeter in auditing!

I know - it's a wild and whacky claim I am making. But I'd like to get how AnonOrange is going to take this data from this neuroscientist and discount the use of the emeter in auditing now.

And to set AO at ease - and everyone else - I'm almost positive that the lecturer in this video is not Vinaire. :)))

AO - watch this video, and pay particularly close attention to his FIRST EXAMPLE, and report back to us how your explanation of the emeter in this thread is in alignment with the scientific understanding of GSR this neuroscientist uses every day.

Thanking you in advance for your reasoned, rational - and non-cognitively-dissonant response.

Click here: http://www.ted.com/talks/vilayanur_ramachandran_on_your_mind.html
 
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programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
Alanzo,

Thanks for the link to that lecture. I watched the whole thing. It is fascinating.
However, his brief passing mention of GSR and sweat does not address the issues brought up on this thread at all.
 
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