Need e-meter and qualified scientology auditor for Saturday June 20

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
AnonOrange,

I think that we should differentiate between some items:

1. obvious body movement (macro), which a trained auditor can spot

2. ideomotor (micro), which no one can spot without additional instruments

3. GSR

Would you please summarize your opinions regarding the above 3 points?
(And please address all 3 from your point of view.)
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Alanzo,

Thanks for the link to that lecture. I watched the whole thing. It is fascinating.
However, his brief passing mention of GSR and sweat does not address the issues brought up on this thread at all.

Oh come on!

His description of the limbic nervous system, its function in producing sweat in the palms at the presence of a threat in order to cool off from the coming "flight response" that may ensue...

When the auditor asks a question which causes an "engram" to emerge in the awareness of the pc, which represents the presence of a threat (even if in the mind), which then reacts on the meter - is totally in line with the original theory that created the use of the emeter in auditing.

Why do you say that it isn't?
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
Alanzo,

I said that because I don't think that sweat accounts for all GSR effects.
And he really mentions sweat briefly ... then moves on. He wasn't very clear about that.
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
You guys constantly AMAZE me!

See Ramachandran's video between 7:30 and 7:40.

He SPECIFICALLY states that when you see an innocuous object you don't sweat but if you see something like a lion, you (quickly) sweat, which is picked up by the electrodes on the meter.

I said from DAY ONE that the meter reacts to grip & sweat. You guys denied it. Hubbard said the meter measures body mass density changes. That is NOT TRUE.

Ramachandran confirmed exactly what I said, but you guys just don't want to listen to his CLEAR words.

Y'all have splaining to do. NOT ME.

BTW, I figured out why GSR does not work underwater.

Have a shot at it and Prof. AO will correct the wrong answers.
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
AnonOrange,

I think that we should differentiate between some items:

1. obvious body movement (macro), which a trained auditor can spot

2. ideomotor (micro), which no one can spot without additional instruments

3. GSR

Would you please summarize your opinions regarding the above 3 points?
(And please address all 3 from your point of view.)

I agree with you here. These are three different effects that we have to find adequate tests in order to isolate individually.

1) Can be checked readily. When Paul wiggled his finger electrodes, the needle moved in concert.

2) Use someone that does not know what to expect (Like Paul's friend when he tried the breathing test. The needle did not move)

3) GSR can be isolated with a scary video, like was done in the Cornell experiment. I bet it won't work underwater.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Alanzo,

I said that because I don't think that sweat accounts for all GSR effects.
And he really mentions sweat briefly ... then moves on. He wasn't very clear about that.

I'm specifically talking about the data he imparts in the lecture between 5:30 and 9:16.

This data is evidence that a device such as an emeter is a valid way to search out incidents to "run" for a counselor in an auditing-type session.

For more proof, see my avatar.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
See Ramachandran's video between 7:30 and 7:40.

He SPECIFICALLY states that when you see an innocuous object you don't sweat but if you see something like a lion, you (quickly) sweat, which is picked up by the electrodes on the meter.

I said from DAY ONE that the meter reacts to grip & sweat. You guys denied it. Hubbard said the meter measures body mass density changes. That is NOT TRUE.

Ramachandran confirmed exactly what I said, but you guys just don't want to listen to his CLEAR words.

Y'all have splaining to do. NOT ME.

BTW, I figured out why GSR does not work underwater.

Have a shot at it and Prof. AO will correct the wrong answers.

Oh look everybody!!!

Cognitive dissonance at work!!!
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
Oh look everybody!!!

Cognitive dissonance at work!!!

AnonOrange has made a few good points (in spite of the "I am triumphant!" attitude aside, which turns people off). I am willing to overlook the attitude and consider the issues.

Anyway, I am still reading and analyzing. :)
 

ULRC/S

Patron with Honors
Hey AO,
Somewherer earlier in this thread you stated that Red Bull cans were the perfect cans for emeter usage.

Well, I finally bought a can of this syrup and guess what?

And as i suspected, they are NON CONDUCTIVE! Totally painted/clear laquered all over except for the top and bottom.

No matter how anti emeter you may be, you are well off the mark suggesting these!

Regards, Allen
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
LOL. Yes, AO is sure he knows that the e-meter doesn't work.

Convincing him otherwise is a fool's errand. Considering his points is of interest, but his claim that none of us would admit that hand-sweating or grip were important would be a false one. They are understood and corrected for in "Standard Tech" meter-training.

Frankly, it's all a red herring, since the meter is not necessary to do auditing. "Comm cycle" is King, along with "in-session" (ITSA Maker and Report line).
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Hey AO,
Somewherer earlier in this thread you stated that Red Bull cans were the perfect cans for emeter usage.

Well, I finally bought a can of this syrup and guess what?

And as i suspected, they are NON CONDUCTIVE! Totally painted/clear laquered all over except for the top and bottom.

I can't be bothered to look it up, but he said he got something like 20k ohms across the electrodes, one in each hand. The clips were hooked up to one end of the can, so there must have been SOME contact between the hands and the end. Along the join/edge maybe, that runs along the length of the can?

Paul
 

ULRC/S

Patron with Honors
Well, I measure open circuit anywhere on the can except the actual end covers, which are bare alu, and are electrically connected to each other. The rest is COMPLETELY non conductive, as in above 100 megohms, including the lip around the junction between the ends and the can side surface.

Unless of course the USA can is cheaper and doesn't get the all over laquer finish...? Most people would be happy to have their car look as glossy.

Regards, Allen
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Well, I measure open circuit anywhere on the can except the actual end covers, which are bare alu, and are electrically connected to each other. The rest is COMPLETELY non conductive, as in above 100 megohms, including the lip around the junction between the ends and the can side surface.

Unless of course the USA can is cheaper and doesn't get the all over laquer finish...? Most people would be happy to have their car look as glossy.

Regards, Allen

Fair enough. I remember some years back hunting for steel cans in a US supermarket using a magnet (for my food replicator), and it was a very long job. Eventually I found some containing yucky tomato purée, which went straight down the sink.

Paul
 

TalleyWhacker

Patron with Honors
Bright Idea!

I think Anon ought to just slip them up where the sun doesn't shine. Preferably those family sized Bush bean cans. No need to take the labels off--criminals won't read on much anyway.
Ooops, that won't work...he's got cranial rectal inversion!
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Fair enough. I remember some years back hunting for steel cans in a US supermarket using a magnet (for my food replicator), and it was a very long job. Eventually I found some containing yucky tomato purée, which went straight down the sink.

Paul

Most drink-type cans, like Red Bull are aluminum, which is conductive, but, not magnetic, but are covered inside and out with a plastic film. You could use the cans, but, you'd have to sand the plastic and printing off.

Zinj
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Most drink-type cans, like Red Bull are aluminum, which is conductive, but, not magnetic, but are covered inside and out with a plastic film. You could use the cans, but, you'd have to sand the plastic and printing off.

Zinj

So what did AO do to end up with conductive Red Bull cans? He might not be the greatest scientist in his trailer park (well, he might), but he did end up with photos showing resistance on the scale of his ohmmeter still. I don't recall him mentioning sanding down the surface.

Paul
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
So what did AO do to end up with conductive Red Bull cans? He might not be the greatest scientist in his trailer park (well, he might), but he did end up with photos showing resistance on the scale of his ohmmeter still. I don't recall him mentioning sanding down the surface.

Paul

The lips that hold the side to the bottom/top may not be coated, so, if you fudged and held on there and connected your clip there, it'd work.

Zinj
 
Brilliant!

As with many a scientific experiment, it was astute observation and an unexpected happenstance that provided valuable information.

The meter response before the hands were dunked was much looser than during. I can think of two reasons why this might be so: 1) cold hands and/or circulation cut off, 2) the meter was operating in a different range. That one can be corrected by placing a resistor in line with one of the leads to bring the meter back into range.

All in all, hands totally off cans with needle responding says to me that the sweat/unsweat argument is now laid to rest. :thumbsup:

If you want to see if you can produce some blowdowns with hands off the cans, well, that would be heroic. :yes:


I just watched the underwater videos. Thanks for making them Paul, they were very interesting. I especially enjoyed the foot one. As a result of viewing them I can suggest another hypothesis to those which Ted advances for the observed difference in responses.

First a slight digression. Here are two prior posts, #17 & 18, which I consider relevant to the topic at hand. They constitute an electronic engineer & experienced auditor, a person well known among freezoners & an occasional poster on ESMB, friend's understanding of the function of the emeter and how it couples to the body's neural network.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=104779#post104779

Okay, given Roland's discussion, the most important areas to measure from are those rich in nerve ends tied directly tied to the brain structure. Among such parts of the body the fingers, palms, earlobes, toes, etc., are especially suitable.

Now in the mechanics of the experiment, the water in the buckets serves as a general aid to conductivity. Something like strapping a much larger electrode to the body part being measured. Because of the relatively high conductivity of the water it is not necessary to have direct contact between the skin and the electrode can. The water connects the whole of the submerged body part to the whole of the submerged electrode can.

However, now the can is not sensing electrical signals directly from those areas richest in nerve endings but it is measuring an averaged electrical signal from the entire submerged area of the body. This is so whether or not the body part remains in direct contact with the electrode can.

This suggests that improvements in "tone arm" reading may be as the result of more effective skin contact. Thus the "base level" of body conduction is more readily established and "tone arm" appears to drop.

However, the increased skin contact comes at the expense of greater averaging of total neural signals. The diminishment of reads as indicated by the need to increase sensitivity could relate to this "loss of signal" from the averaging of neural potentials over a greater area of the body and a resultant lesser effect of those areas rich in nerve endings.


Mark A. Baker
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
However, now the can is not sensing electrical signals directly from those areas richest in nerve endings but it is measuring an averaged electrical signal from the entire submerged area of the body. This is so whether or not the body part remains in direct contact with the electrode can.

One of the most recent videos shows just my sensitive fingertips underwater, very close to but not touching the electrode wires. The sensitivity is the highest it will go on the C-meter. The TA starts rising after ten seconds or so, which I don't seem to notice (!), but the needle is fairly loose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=now694JmYnE

Paul
 

JinLing

Patron
Youd probably get a weird TA. It would make it hard to read anything on that meter. You dont even know how to use a meter, then it would be hard. And youre not locating any "thetans" as such. I couldnt be bothered to read the whole thread, but i know the meter reacts on a thought, or "mental mass" thats pretty clear to anyone who did the metering course, it messures nothing else. So without direction of thought it wont do anything but sending electricity into your veins and react to certain things you think about at the moment at best, which could be anything from your last acupuncture to when you wiped your ass last morning.
 
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