Need e-meter and qualified scientology auditor for Saturday June 20

[Dulloldfart]

'Dirty needle'? You tell me. What do these things 'mean' and who said so based on *what*?

There's a meter drill based on dirtying and cleaning the needle. All student auditors do this one. The student "dirties the student's needle" in maybe a dozen ways, one by one, then cleans it. For example, the student will ask the coach a series of bland listed questions, like "What is your name?", "What is your height?", and cut the coach's answer before the coach has had a chance to answer the question properly. After a while, short or long, the needle will get dirty.

The student will then ask the coach if he/she has any considerations about the drill, listen to the answer, and acknowledge it properly. And continue doing this until the needle is clean.

What is fascinating about this drill is that even though the coach knows exactly what is going on, the needle will get dirty and clean up exactly as the drill predicts, providing it is done per the instructions. As a sup I've seen dozens of people do this drill.

That counts as evidence in my book.

Aha, you might say. The needle only does that because the guy holding the cans KNOWS the needle is supposed to do that, so that is what the needle does. I would love to see someone genuinely produce a dirty and clean needle on command, without can fiddle, say by going through the drill and producing the opposite reactions to those expected.

Paul

 

[Alanzo]

There's a meter drill based on dirtying and cleaning the needle. All student auditors do this one. The student "dirties the student's needle" in maybe a dozen ways, one by one, then cleans it. For example, the student will ask the coach a series of bland listed questions, like "What is your name?", "What is your height?", and cut the coach's answer before the coach has had a chance to answer the question properly. After a while, short or long, the needle will get dirty.

The student will then ask the coach if he/she has any considerations about the drill, listen to the answer, and acknowledge it properly. And continue doing this until the needle is clean.

What is fascinating about this drill is that even though the coach knows exactly what is going on, the needle will get dirty and clean up exactly as the drill predicts, providing it is done per the instructions. As a sup I've seen dozens of people do this drill.

That counts as evidence in my book.

Aha, you might say. The needle only does that because the guy holding the cans KNOWS the needle is supposed to do that, so that is what the needle does. I would love to see someone genuinely produce a dirty and clean needle on command, without can fiddle, say by going through the drill and producing the opposite reactions to those expected.

Paul

This counts as evidence to me as well.

I've also seen dozens, if not hundreds, of successful emeter drills done where the coach holds the cans silently and thinks of the events of his day. When a distinct needle movement occurs, the student auditor says "What was that thought?"

The coach does not answer, but instead notes which thought got that response from the student and goes off thinking of other things.

Time and time again - maybe even hundreds of times - I have seen the needle react again in that same distinct way when the coach returns to that thought, and seen the student say "That was the same thought" and have the coach acknowledge that it was correct.

I have been the coach on this drill dozens of time myself, and had the read occur on the same thought of my own, as well.

These two drills that Paul and I mention here are done every day in Scientology course rooms around the world. And they are actually some of the easiest drills to pass.

If you had not seen it with your own eyes, then I would not expect you to believe it.

Now, AO, you may not like this "detail" in your "scientific investigation", but you can't just discount it and look the other way.

You can easily reproduce these phenomena on the Emeter.

And when you do, you are going to have to come up with some legitimate explanation for it. And your explanation is going to have to be consistent and reproducible for ALL Emeter phenomena.

I'd like to see what you come up with.

But it better not be some cheesy skeptic bullshit like "It was a Weather Balloon!".

 

[Zinjifar]

There's a meter drill based on dirtying and cleaning the needle. All student auditors do this one. The student "dirties the student's needle" in maybe a dozen ways, one by one, then cleans it. For example, the student will ask the coach a series of bland listed questions, like "What is your name?", "What is your height?", and cut the coach's answer before the coach has had a chance to answer the question properly. After a while, short or long, the needle will get dirty.

The student will then ask the coach if he/she has any considerations about the drill, listen to the answer, and acknowledge it properly. And continue doing this until the needle is clean.

What is fascinating about this drill is that even though the coach knows exactly what is going on, the needle will get dirty and clean up exactly as the drill predicts, providing it is done per the instructions. As a sup I've seen dozens of people do this drill.

That counts as evidence in my book.

Aha, you might say. The needle only does that because the guy holding the cans KNOWS the needle is supposed to do that, so that is what the needle does. I would love to see someone genuinely produce a dirty and clean needle on command, without can fiddle, say by going through the drill and producing the opposite reactions to those expected.

Paul

What I think is well established is that GSR correlates to stress reactions and that, yes, it's possible to *increase* stress reactions as well as abreact them. And also possible for a target to himself manipulate his purely physical stress reactions with training.

What also seems obvious to me is that Ron infused 'meaning' into e-meter reactions that goes far beyond anything demonstrated, but is intended to 'demonstrate' the 'reality' of the Scientology cosmology.

It should be possible to actually do testing on specific 'reads', but that's an issue for a real examination. Whenever somebody actually wants to set one up

Zinj

 

[Ted]

These two drills that Paul and I mention here are done every day in Scientology course rooms around the world. And they are actually some of the easiest drills to pass.

Good points, Alanzo.

As to those drills done around the world in Scientology course rooms, every day, probably not any more. The image of purposeful students enjoying their courses and auditing is long gone.

 

[Alanzo]

What I think is well established is that GSR correlates to stress reactions and that, yes, it's possible to *increase* stress reactions as well as abreact them. And also possible for a target to himself manipulate his purely physical stress reactions with training.

What also seems obvious to me is that Ron infused 'meaning' into e-meter reactions that goes far beyond anything demonstrated, but is intended to 'demonstrate' the 'reality' of the Scientology cosmology.

It should be possible to actually do testing on specific 'reads', but that's an issue for a real examination. Whenever somebody actually wants to set one up

Zinj

Then, what you are saying Zinj, is that used ethically, you believe that the Emeter is a device that can be legitimately used to locate times of spiritual travail in therapy.

Can I put you down on the side of the E-Meterists??

 

[Ted]

It should be possible to actually do testing on specific 'reads', but that's an issue for a real examination. Whenever somebody actually wants to set one up

Zinj

Already been done.

Verified by thousands of observant auditors.

If the meter "reads" on mention of some person, place, thing, action, or time, it shows less resistance = good possibility there is something there to talk about.

If the meter needle "rises," it shows greater resistance = skip it. Talk about something else.

The e-meter is far simpler than rocket science. The number of "technical" comments as to what the TA and needle motions mean are very limited yet useful.

Testing can be accomplished on complete strangers. They don't have to suffer the scio indoctrination to have responses show on the e-meter.

Oh, heck. Give the meter to a bunch of teenagers to play with. To the one holding the cans, ask, "Who do you like?" or some such question. Watch that needle fall all over the place. Ask about "jerking off." Needle will likely fall. Keep asking and insist the person is hiding something, needle will probably get dirty. Careful though. You won't likely be able to clean the needle in such a setting.

Later, you can check to see if the LRH comments on missed withholds have any bearing on reality.

Good luck.

 

[alex]

Good points, Alanzo.

As to those drills done around the world in Scientology course rooms, every day, probably not any more. The image of purposeful students enjoying their courses and auditing is long gone.

Yes the use of a "live" mind in drilling seems to be on the road to being superceded by the use of a machine that can reproduce "any" read with unhuman precision.

Pity auditor trainee's are not to be tasked with auditing machines, but live humans.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Pity auditor trainee's are not to be tasked with auditing machines, but live humans.

Fortunately, there's always PaulsRobot to audit people, although I've never tried programming it to audit machines.

Paul

 

[Zinjifar]

Then, what you are saying Zinj, is that used ethically, you believe that the Emeter is a device that can be legitimately used to locate times of spiritual travail in therapy.

Can I put you down on the side of the E-Meterists??

I don't dispute the use of GSR; potentially even in 'therapy'. I do have problems with overreliance on it, overinterpretation of it and some very basic objections to its use within Scientology 'therapy', that fit well into my objections to Scientology 'therapy' itself

But, I'd have the same objections to the use of a Magic 8 Ball within Scientology.

Now, coming back to your example, which I'd say is one deliberately 'misinterpreted' to grant exaggerated 'authority' to the e-meter, If I ran down a list of words until I saw a reaction and then rang a bell, I wouldn't be surprised if rereading that word later might cause a similar reaction. Why, the target might even salivate

Zinj

 

[Dulloldfart]

Can someone video a meter drill or two and stick it on YouTube?

Paul

 

[Alanzo]

I don't dispute the use of GSR; potentially even in 'therapy'. I do have problems with overreliance on it, overinterpretation of it and some very basic objections to its use within Scientology 'therapy', that fit well into my objections to Scientology 'therapy' itself

But, I'd have the same objections to the use of a Magic 8 Ball within Scientology.

Now, coming back to your example, which I'd say is one deliberately 'misinterpreted' to grant exaggerated 'authority' to the e-meter, If I ran down a list of words until I saw a reaction and then rang a bell, I wouldn't be surprised if rereading that word later might cause a similar reaction. Why, the target might even salivate

Zinj

I understand what you are saying but you have to take into account the exact phenomenon:

1. The distinct emeter read occurs AFTER the coach thinks it and before the student identifies it.

2. That exact distinct read occurs again BEFORE the student calls it.

So the Pavlovic stimulus of the bell in your explanation does not, in fact, explain the phenom as observed.

Keep going, though. It's fun to watch.

 

[AnonOrange]

My objections to the e-meter are not objections to GSR but objections to the *interpretation* of GSR reactions made by Hubbard, who infused various bounces, ticks and patterns of movement with 'meanings' that are beyond any actual evidence. It's these interpretations that make up much of the e-meter Tech and which are *divinatory* in nature, like pendelum swinging or entrail 'reading'.

*addendum* In fact, what I probably should have said above is that the e-meter Tech is a 'reading' of both the 'noise' due to flawed GSR response and the actual GSR *and* the purely random and mechanically generated needle movements due to the use of the *undamped* needle movement which results in many of the observed 'bounces' etc.

You're doing great here. Keep on going in that direction, that's where the answer is.

Shermer said: "Humans are pattern seeking animals".

That's useful in nature, because most (but not all) patterns that our ancestors observed were meaningful. Humans tend to overanalyze data that has very little statistical significance. That why Vegas, the stock market, Tarot card readers and alternative medicine thrives. Most of the observations from those fields are random but humans unfortunately get addicted to this stuff and deduce wrong conclusions.

Even I do it, but I'm aware of it. This moring I made a post regarding Ponzi schemes related to scientology with only TWO data points. I said, is this a pattern?

Read up about the ideomotor effect. Very small imperceptible muscle movements cause reactions with mechanical or electronic systems that are on the edge of instability. Dowsers (water diviners) are particularly suceptible to that. Ouij boards are another example.

The e-meter tuning is specifically underdamped (and the damping itself can be adjusted). It is this randomenss, when coupled with factors like slight muscle movements, sweat that throws the whole thing off. I believe Hubbard said that the Psychs were a good target because there science was random.

The best way we know to tell the truth about this is to do a PROPER experiments, that eliminate physical sources of error and human bias (and trickery). So far I thought of doing a double blind test, where the auditor would only see the meter's response and determine if a subject was an SP or an OT-8. The other test is the needle in the veins test, with some luck we'll do today. We could also test with electrode but I can't find any at drugstores.

You guys could surely invent other tests, but please realize that a standard auditing session is NOT a proper scientific test. I'll oblige to it, no problem, but understand that it is totally biased by the auditor, the tester and the equipment.

 

[Alanzo]

Can someone video a meter drill or two and stick it on YouTube?

Paul

I need to drink some more Mickey's before I do another youtube vid, and it's early yet.

Zinj?

 

[AnonOrange]

Can someone video a meter drill or two and stick it on YouTube?

Paul

What I'd like to see is what a "floating needle", "dirty needle", etc looks like. The test should be on a real person, not a simulation by making the needle move with a potentiometer attached to the clips.

BUT, ABOVE ALL, here's what I'd really like to see: Record 10 different such patterns on video and ask several auditors to tell you what they mean. Do a proper test, were each auditor is asked independently what the needle movement indicates.

Compile the results. I expect AT BEST 50 % correlation. In other words, FLUNK.

 

[alex]

What I'd like to see is what a "floating needle", "dirty needle", etc looks like. The test should be on a real person, not a simulation by making the needle move with a potentiometer attached to the clips.

BUT, ABOVE ALL, here's what I'd really like to see: Record 10 different such patterns on video and ask several auditors to tell you what they mean. Do a proper test, were each auditor is asked independently what the needle movement indicates.

Compile the results. I expect AT BEST 50 % correlation. In other words, FLUNK.

You are clueless!

But amusing!

 

[Ted]

I don't dispute the use of GSR; potentially even in 'therapy'. I do have problems with overreliance on it, overinterpretation of it and some very basic objections to its use within Scientology 'therapy', that fit well into my objections to Scientology 'therapy' itself

But, I'd have the same objections to the use of a Magic 8 Ball within Scientology.

Now, coming back to your example, which I'd say is one deliberately 'misinterpreted' to grant exaggerated 'authority' to the e-meter, If I ran down a list of words until I saw a reaction and then rang a bell, I wouldn't be surprised if rereading that word later might cause a similar reaction. Why, the target might even salivate

Zinj

Hey, I'm salivating already! All this e-meter talk has got me going!

Woof, woof!

Just say, "Pick up the cans, please," then watch me drool.

 

[Zinjifar]

Hey, I'm salivating already! All this e-meter talk has got me going!

Woof, woof!

Just say, "Pick up the cans, please," then watch me drool.

I am not auditing you

Zinj

 

[Dulloldfart]

What I'd like to see is what a "floating needle", "dirty needle", etc looks like. The test should be on a real person, not a simulation by making the needle move with a potentiometer attached to the clips.

Are there really no videos of these things online anywhere? It's 2009 and there isn't even one video of this online? There must be!

Paul

 

[AnonOrange]

You are clueless!

But amusing!

Put some SCIENCE in scientology. Do the test and you'll see who ends up amused.

I'm off to BFG's party ! Woo hoo!

 

[Ted]

I am not auditing you

Zinj

Oh, a security check, huh? :confused2: