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Need e-meter and qualified scientology auditor for Saturday June 20

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
What I'd like to see is what a "floating needle", "dirty needle", etc looks like. The test should be on a real person, not a simulation by making the needle move with a potentiometer attached to the clips.

BUT, ABOVE ALL, here's what I'd really like to see: Record 10 different such patterns on video and ask several auditors to tell you what they mean. Do a proper test, were each auditor is asked independently what the needle movement indicates.

Compile the results. I expect AT BEST 50 % correlation. In other words, FLUNK.
Do you realize that this is actually an emeter drill film in the church used to train auditors to spot the different emeter reads?

No you don't.

You have some study to do, AO, before you can even hope to do a good expose.

Hopefully you will learn something at BFG's party!

Have fun and report back!
 
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Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Thank you for finding some videos of e-meters, but those show nothing sensible at all. It's like having a two-year old demonstrate how a Camaro handles.

Paul
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thank you for finding some videos of e-meters, but those show nothing sensible at all. It's like having a two-year old demonstrate how a Camaro handles.

Paul

A camaro understears badly, doesnt have the correct front/rear weight balance to handle the power of a V8 and has shitty seats. It is basicly a sedan without the bigger rear seats and a harder lower suspension.

But it is true that a 2 year old would not be capable of scrubbing the front tires on a turn taken to fast, or even reaching the gas pedal to loose traction on acceleration.
 

Mystic

Crusader
Party Cam

Bugger all this emeter spam. Is an immaterial device. We need a BFG Party Cam and we need it NAO!
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
So what happened, AO? Did you get on the cans/needles?

Paul

I was prepared with all my stuff, but nobody wanted to bring an e-meter to the beach ! That's understandable. I did meet someone (who blew yesterday) that has two Mark VII's. He was lukewarm about the test (being a waste of time, bla bla bla), but at least now I know someone that may be available.

Thanks Cornpie for the e-meter videos.
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
Do you realize that this is actually an emeter drill film in the church used to train auditors to spot the different emeter reads?

If the auditors watch a FILM of how such patterns are supposed to look and are expected to recognize them in practice, then that's a failure from the start.

They need to be tested to make sure that they can actually recognize (with sufficient statistical certainty on many subjects) the whole spectrum of such needle movements on various patients. I maintain that results of such tests will be much less successful than you think.

I know experimental testing and many of the caveats and pitfalls that can affect the results.

Nothing in Scientology is done scientifically. That's why I predict the test will fail.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
If the auditors watch a FILM of how such patterns are supposed to look and expected to recognize them in practive, then that's a failure from the start.

They need to be tested to make sure that they can actually recognize (with sufficient statistical certainty on many subjects) that they will recognize the whole spectrum of such needle movements on various patients. I maintain that results of such tests will be much less successful than you think.

I know experimental testing and many of the caveats and pitfalls that can affect the results.

Nothing in Scientology is done scientifically. That's why I predict the test will fail.

In order to be effectively skeptical, you need to know more about this than you do.

I would love an alternative explanation to Hubbard's for the things I saw in using the Emeter.

But you are throwing explanations out for phenomena that do not exist, nor are they claimed to exist.

Get one of those Emeters from that guy you met yesterday. Get familiar with emeter theory and the exact claims being made.

THEN do some experiments to try to explain what, exactly is happening with the emeter.

You should open your mouth once you have something intelligent to say. Not before.
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
I would love an alternative explanation to Hubbard's for the things I saw in using the Emeter.

You got duped, that's all. It's hard to admit, but try to be objective about it. More than likely, the needle moved because you moved, you were stressed and sweat more and you incorrectly interpreted the reading as something meaningful. Misinterpretation of irrelevant data is the number ONE problem humans have.

I just realized something else. Stress tests are rather short sessions. You show up with dry hands and after only a minute,your hands start to sweat. That ALONE makes the needle fall to the right.

The auditor constantly readjusts the tone arm lever to center the needle back to the zero on the scale.

Then the auditor asks you a question about your childhood, and sure enough, the needle falls further.

Just get on the meter, zero out the needle and wait. It will eventually peg completely to the right.

Again, it's mostly about sweat and grip.
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
In order to be effectively skeptical, you need to know more about this than you do.

I would love an alternative explanation to Hubbard's for the things I saw in using the Emeter.

But you are throwing explanations out for phenomena that do not exist, nor are they claimed to exist.

Get one of those Emeters from that guy you met yesterday. Get familiar with emeter theory and the exact claims being made.

THEN do some experiments to try to explain what, exactly is happening with the emeter.

You should open your mouth once you have something intelligent to say. Not before.

Thanks. I was starting to wonder if I'd hallucinated all those hours I had drilled in the Academy getting endless folks to hold the cans so I could spot and produce the various needle characteristics on them.... *sigh*.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
You got duped, that's all. It's hard to admit, but try to be objective about it. More than likely, the needle moved because you moved, you were stressed and sweat more and you incorrectly interpreted the reading as something meaningful. Misinterpretation of irrelevant data is the number ONE problem humans have.

I just realized something else. Stress tests are rather short sessions. You show up with dry hands and after only a minute,your hands start to sweat. That ALONE makes the needle fall to the right.

The auditor constantly readjusts the tone arm lever to center the needle back to the zero on the scale.

Then the auditor asks you a question about your childhood, and sure enough, the needle falls further.

Just get on the meter, zero out the needle and wait. It will eventually peg completely to the right.

Again, it's mostly about sweat and grip.

Wow that's some excellent observation there, buddy.

You don't even have to look at anything. You just think of shit and you've got it all figured out!

You're more certain than a Scientologist.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
I'm not 'clear' about why AO would be trying to 'prove' that the e-meter isn't even a galvanic skin response device. I can think of any number of things to 'test', including the hyperbolic claims by Ron and His 'Church' or even some of the sillier claims by *some* Scientologists about 'why' or 'how' it works. But, if his point is to 'prove' that the e-meter isn't even a variation on GSR, then I suspect he'll be shit out of luck, unless he comes up with some test that proves it's a 'brick', which may prove something to him, but, would have to be pretty stupid.

So AO, is the GSR element in the polygraph *also* just sweat and wiggle? Maybe your discovery will be of interest far beyond the relatively limited 'scientology related' community.

Zinj
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
So AO, is the GSR element in the polygraph *also* just sweat and wiggle? Maybe your discovery will be of interest far beyond the relatively limited 'scientology related' community.

Zinj

Remember that it works on plants too (Google Cleve Backster). Guess they sweat and giggle as well. Sorry, wiggle.

Paul
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'm not 'clear' about why AO would be trying to 'prove' that the e-meter isn't even a galvanic skin response device.

Why do you keep on saying that and you make me refute it over and over again? I say that the e-meter only measures skin contact, in other words it is a Galvanic Skin Response meter, which gets it's response mostly due to the quality of the contact. Grip and sweat.

It does not measure changes occurring IN your body, due to what your are thinking about.

(If you use your muscles to lift something heavy, while attached to the e-meter (through needles), it is likely you will see a conduction change). Thinking about space aliens won't make the needle move.
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
Google Cleve Backster

Thanks, I did !

Backster's "Primary Perception" theory was referenced in the Discovery Channel television show MythBusters. The team attempted to reproduce Backster's experiments using a polygraph and an EEG machine. It reproduced the plant experiment and initially got something peculiar as predicted by Backster's work. However, after more carefully controlling the conditions of the experiment to eliminate the possibility of external influence, the plant did not demonstrate any measurable reaction to external stimulus. The team was similarly unable to coax any measurable response out of yogurt cultures, white blood cells, or eggs. These experiments were then responded to by Backster on a 2008 radio broadcast of Coast to Coast AM, where he criticized the conditions of the Mythbusters experiment.


It's all about doing a PROPERLY controlled experiment, something scientologists refuse to do.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Why do you keep on saying that and you make me refute it over and over again? I say that the e-meter only measures skin contact, in other words it is a Galvanic Skin Response meter, which gets it's response mostly due to the quality of the contact. Grip and sweat.

It does not measure changes occurring IN your body.

Quite obviously you don't understand what GSR is in the first place. The *polygraph* uses multiple methods of detection, one of which is galvanic skin response. And, while the level of sweat or basic contact may help set the *baseline*, the 'response' portion has to do with changes in conductivity *in the skin itself* as a result of stress.

Zinj
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'm reading about this Backster guy. He's totally making this up, much like Hubbard made up most of his stuff:


"Early one morning in October 1966, Mr Backster connected the polygraph’s GSR electrodes to the leaf of a Dragon plant and then watered the base of the plant. His intention was to measure the amount of time it would take for water to reach the leaf and change its electrical resistance.

While expecting a drop in resistance as the water entered the leaf, Mr Baxter was not prepared for what followed – the resistance instead increased, and according to the polygraph results, the plant generated a curve similar to that of a human being experiencing happiness.

Mr Backster then tried another experiment. “It was early in the morning and no other person was in the laboratory. My thought and intent was: ‘I’m going to burn that leaf!’” Backster recorded, “The very moment the imagery of burning that leaf entered my mind, the polygraph recording pen moved rapidly to the top of the chart.”

He went to get a box of matches and returned, but realised the polygraph was already so agitated that there would be no observable response. So he took the matches back to his secretary’s office. According to Mr Backster, when he returned to the polygraph “the thing just evened right out again, which really rounded it out and gave me a very, very high quality observation.”

Over the next 35 years Mr Backster performed repeated blind, controlled and automated experiments to examine this phenomenon, which he calls “Primary Perception Biocommunication”, and others know as “the Backster Effect”.

His research found, among other things, that plants can perceive and measurably respond to intentional human thought and actions. Allegedly, Mr Backster’s experiments have been duplicated by scientists thousands of times using many variations."


Backster's claims were refuted by Horowitz, Lewis, and Gasteiger (1975) and Kmetz (1977). Kmetz summarized the case against Backster in an article for the Skeptical Inquirer in 1978. Backster had not used proper controls in doing his study. When controls were used, no detection of plant reaction to thoughts or threats could be found. These researchers found that the cause of the polygraph contours could have been due to a number of factors, including static electricity, movement in the room, changes in humidity, etc.
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
If the auditors watch a FILM of how such patterns are supposed to look and are expected to recognize them in practice, then that's a failure from the start.

They need to be tested to make sure that they can actually recognize (with sufficient statistical certainty on many subjects) the whole spectrum of such needle movements on various patients. I maintain that results of such tests will be much less successful than you think.

I know experimental testing and many of the caveats and pitfalls that can affect the results.

Nothing in Scientology is done scientifically. That's why I predict the test will fail.

Okay, I'd like to see the precise steps, layed out in detail, on how you are going to do this investigation in a scientific manner.

Although I have disagreed with you on this, I would certainly be interested in any info/input you will have to offer.

Bottom line: go for it! But be open for scrutiny on this... that's also part of the way it is done.
 
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