Need help dealing wit an ot7

[dchoiceisalwaysrs]

Hi AWH, I think I have not welcomed you yet, so Welcome

Not so sure that I am very good at giving advice, but as you asked for it, and I do admire your reach for help I will give it a shot.

Firstly, I think it is great that you and your sister have been able to maintain some communication over the years. What with you having been in then gotten out, and your sister in and perhaps(just guessing here) gone further up the bridge and having thusly a different reality on Scientology.

But you do have a common lingo if you can remember it, and have even though in different worlds(realities) maintained some Agreement to not push, and some granting of beingness, and some communication so this is an attempt to be you in talking to your sister.

Hi sister,...it is great to hear from you and I want to make sure I thank you for caring for me by sending the books. I know you do have my best interest at heart. Thank you.

I think it is great that you and I have been able to stay connected and not had our family torn apart like some people say is a result of Scientology.

I guess we can owe that to the love and respect that we have for each other and the unspoken agreement not to enforce each others realities on each other. You know how that goes, Enforce or inhibited realities are a source of abberation, and I recognize and think you do too that we are best to not force our differences in reality, but rather maintain and strengthen our relationship. I really love you, and even if we don't see eye to eye on everything, I still wish you can accomplish your goals in life.

I addition to maintaining our long relationship, I want to see you and (neice) and (nephew) over at my place for Christmas dinner.

Let's make sure nothing or no-one comes between us regarding this seasonal celebration.

Let me know, I will be waiting as always for you.

Love and hugs

sis and auntie

----------------------

AWH, I would say you have a tremendous ability to love as you have demonstrated, and to do you best, I hope my advice can add impetus to your hearts desire.

 

[Terril park]

How would you deal with YOUR sister in a similar situation? I don't want to push back too hard, but I want to make her know that I am not coming back to the church. Period. I need to do this and still get our families together this xmas for dinner.

What do you think? Any hope?

AWH

Simplicity. Just tell her you are no longer interested in scientology
and are not interested in any books. As a fall back point out she may be getting into enforcing comm, and thats not how you want to relate to your sister.

And you really want to relate.

 

[thetanic]

I must say that even though I haven't yet said "I am no longer a Scientologist" to anyone who is still in, that day is getting closer every minute. It is the right thing to say and the only honest response. I am practicing it in the mirror. I did manage to tell one of the people who is trying to recover me that I don't want to be recovered and I expect her to respect my wishes. It felt good to say and sort of worked. I guess I'm blowing on a gradient. LOL.

Back when I was collecting freeloader debts, one ex-staffer said to me that she valued her time in Scn, and she'd moved beyond it.

I never called her again, either. I just seemed to skip over her name when I pulled her file out.

Now I know exactly how she felt, too.

Even though she didn't know it, her words made a deep impression on me, because I'd really liked her as a coworker.

I just looked her up; she died a few years ago. Sorry, gal, but at least you had a good run.

~t

 

[Good twin]

Wow. This is beautiful. Truly.

Hi AWH, I think I have not welcomed you yet, so Welcome

Not so sure that I am very good at giving advice, but as you asked for it, and I do admire your reach for help I will give it a shot.

Firstly, I think it is great that you and your sister have been able to maintain some communication over the years. What with you having been in then gotten out, and your sister in and perhaps(just guessing here) gone further up the bridge and having thusly a different reality on Scientology.

But you do have a common lingo if you can remember it, and have even though in different worlds(realities) maintained some Agreement to not push, and some granting of beingness, and some communication so this is an attempt to be you in talking to your sister.

Hi sister,...it is great to hear from you and I want to make sure I thank you for caring for me by sending the books. I know you do have my best interest at heart. Thank you.

I think it is great that you and I have been able to stay connected and not had our family torn apart like some people say is a result of Scientology.

I guess we can owe that to the love and respect that we have for each other and the unspoken agreement not to enforce each others realities on each other. You know how that goes, Enforce or inhibited realities are a source of abberation, and I recognize and think you do too that we are best to not force our differences in reality, but rather maintain and strengthen our relationship. I really love you, and even if we don't see eye to eye on everything, I still wish you can accomplish your goals in life.

I addition to maintaining our long relationship, I want to see you and (neice) and (nephew) over at my place for Christmas dinner.

Let's make sure nothing or no-one comes between us regarding this seasonal celebration.

Let me know, I will be waiting as always for you.

Love and hugs

sis and auntie

----------------------

AWH, I would say you have a tremendous ability to love as you have demonstrated, and to do you best, I hope my advice can add impetus to your hearts desire.

 

[dchoiceisalwaysrs]

Wow. This is beautiful. Truly.

Thank you GT. but it took awhile. 19 posts occurred as I wrote it.

I truly hope AWH, and her sister and other family can benefit from it

 

[Kathy (ImOut)]

1) "Never See Her Again" is probably exaggerated. Yes, per theory that's true, but, in practice *everybody leaves* or will leave. It can take years, and, in many cases decades, but, especially now, the hemmorhage is like never before.

2) It would be dishonest to 'humor' her by pretending to go along. It's understandable at times, but, it's also part and parcel of the Scientology Extortion in forcing you into a dishonest 'agreement'. And, it's humiliating for her (although she won't know that.)

Scientology's 'Disconnection Policy' is one of the worst elements of a philosophy with no shortage of bad elements, but, it's one of the few bits of the 'Tech' that actually works to extort 'compliance', so, it's doubtful that it's going to go away.

I'd suggest saying 'I am not a Scientologist. I do not want to be a Scientologist. That is my Self-Determinism. If you want to be a Scientologist, that's yours. I love you and will always be here for you, but, I have no control over *your* decisions; nor do I want them. Please have an equal respect for my decisions and self-determinism."

Zinj

I agree with Zinj. I personally believe, no matter how painful, that honesty is the best policy. Otherwise you're having a relationship based on lies. And that's one of the reasons I got out of the CofS - too many lies.

 

[Tim Skog]

Hi AWH, I think I have not welcomed you yet, so Welcome

Not so sure that I am very good at giving advice, but as you asked for it, and I do admire your reach for help I will give it a shot.

Firstly, I think it is great that you and your sister have been able to maintain some communication over the years. What with you having been in then gotten out, and your sister in and perhaps(just guessing here) gone further up the bridge and having thusly a different reality on Scientology.

But you do have a common lingo if you can remember it, and have even though in different worlds(realities) maintained some Agreement to not push, and some granting of beingness, and some communication so this is an attempt to be you in talking to your sister.

Hi sister,...it is great to hear from you and I want to make sure I thank you for caring for me by sending the books. I know you do have my best interest at heart. Thank you.

I think it is great that you and I have been able to stay connected and not had our family torn apart like some people say is a result of Scientology.

I guess we can owe that to the love and respect that we have for each other and the unspoken agreement not to enforce each others realities on each other. You know how that goes, Enforce or inhibited realities are a source of abberation, and I recognize and think you do too that we are best to not force our differences in reality, but rather maintain and strengthen our relationship. I really love you, and even if we don't see eye to eye on everything, I still wish you can accomplish your goals in life.

I addition to maintaining our long relationship, I want to see you and (neice) and (nephew) over at my place for Christmas dinner.

Let's make sure nothing or no-one comes between us regarding this seasonal celebration.

Let me know, I will be waiting as always for you.

Love and hugs

sis and auntie

----------------------

AWH, I would say you have a tremendous ability to love as you have demonstrated, and to do you best, I hope my advice can add impetus to your hearts desire.

Yeah, what he said

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I think she is pushing you to get back in Scientology because she isn't or won't be allowed to ginish her OT VII or go on to OT VIII if you don't. I know of several people on OT VII who are trying to handle immediate family relatives who left the Church because that is what they have been told; no recovery-no more auditing. So keep in mind that it may in her view be a matter of her eternity. So tread gently. But be honest. You could tell her you'll discuss it when you see her at Christmas.
I think you should expect the worst but hope for the best. If she is under pressure she will disconect from you if you don't return. As for the books, you can give them to her and tell her to give them to someone who will make use of them. But don't say this in a snide way.
You might suggest that one of the reasons you won't return is how you feel abou the disconnection policy. then she will have the dilemma, not you. It might get her to start thinking about contradictions.
Having said all this, I have to add that I don't know you or your sister, so it realy is between the two of you, and only you can really intuitively know what to say. But keep in mind that she has possibly and quite probably been given an ultimatum.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[thetanic]

I think she is pushing you to get back in Scientology because she isn't or won't be allowed to ginish her OT VII or go on to OT VIII if you don't. I know of several people on OT VII who are trying to handle immediate family relatives who left the Church because that is what they have been told; no recovery-no more auditing.

So because they've had communication enforced upon them, they are now in turn enforcing it on others.

If, indeed, she's in that position, I'd ask her directly about it (but I'm like that), and try to use that as a door to handle her (rather than her handling you).

 

[Zinjifar]

One word: KR

Zinj

 

[Feral]

OK, As I was on OTVII for 15 years I can vouch for what TAJ says. There is a constant pressure and a sort of spiritual blackmail that is constant with the OTVII public. It creates a weird state of mind in someone who believes that the cult holds their eternal happiness in the palm of their hand and can revoke it at a whim.

I have had a different approach than simply confessing my apostasy. I have tackled people I know on the basis of what I have discovered. It has caused a flap down here as there are others doing the same thing.

I go in on my best guess of their reality. I NEVER criticize LRH. As she was on OTVII I would direct her to c/s ser 73rb and demonstrate that the church changed valence in the early 80s. The tech is no longer pure. Ls aren't worth a knobble of goat shit, just look at the poor sods who did them and OTVIIs have been dropping like flies. GAT FPRD is in violation of the mandates of handling reads on OTIIIs and above....I could go on for an hour, and frequently do.

I know this is a steep gradient, I am not advising it for everyone, but in the light of what I am saying here simply letting her know you don't subscribe to the cult view on things may not seem so tough!!

I would not go into the conversation in fear of losing her, IMO she is lost to all including herself if her integrity can be compromised by the threat of witheld service. But that is just my opinion, as an ex I would not abandon someone because they were a scio though. But if you do approach it this way you might lose her, or get her out of the cult for good.

If you simply handle her to back off, well you might lose her or get her to back off, not a lot of upside in that, is there?

Did you know that on the board currently posting there are 12 people who have done solo nots? That says something in it self!

All the best of luck, whichever way you go.

.

Thanks for the quick replies.

The problem with the disconnection thing shouldn't seem like such a huge deal I guess. After all I only see them once or twice a year at best, a few emails, a very rare phone call. But she's my sister. I know that our relationship will mean nothing to her if she's told to disconnect (after all she'll have other brothers in future lives. She has actually said something like this once). But as nutty as she may be, the connection for me is still important.

If she were mentally ill (ignore the scn part), I would lie to her to keep her happy and close by, and this feels similar to me in a way. She is really not operating on her own determinism (ot right?), and is firmly in the grip of scn. So do I play a game with her, as I know she is playing with me, or finally let my feelings rip, and cut her off entirely?

I really appreciate your replies.

AWH

 

[FlunkedForLaughing]

Here's my 2 cents worth.

I like the suggestion from "Power Change" that you should say you are not really interested in it "right now". To me that would lead to having a discussion, as opposed to getting into an argument or getting an ultimatum from her.

There are a lot of reasons why someone does not want to be involoved in Scn anymore. To me, they generally come down to 2 major topics. One topic is the bad Scientology management - doing really bad things and treating people horribly. The Second thing is bad Scn Technology - it doesn't work, there is no Clear or OT, it's a mind-control cult.

I would advise you to start out with the trouble you have with Scientology management. Don't talk about the Scn Technology, because it will only stirr up the automatic responses she has like "he has an MU", or "he's got huge overts". She's never going to think "you know, he's right, the Technology doesn't really work". Nope, not going to happen. But she might think about the abuses that Scn management is doing, and possibly think that it's not okay to do that.

You may have seen this, but here is a link to a long document that proves the fact that the 6 months checks for OTVII are off policy. It shows how DM himself is the one altering the technology. http://www.freezone.org/reports/virginia.htm

Also, the video with the OT's talking about their experiences is a good one, if she's willing to see a video. I can't find the link, but it's the one with Greg and Debra Barnes, Tory, and one other man.

Good luck. Please share with us what happened, and what worked, and what didn't work.

I am facing a similar situation with my wife. When I mentioned to her that DM is a very bad man, and he's hurting the church very much, and one day he will be declared to be the biggest SP the church ever had, she didn't want to hear any of it. She said anything I learn from the internet is wrong, just get back on course and don't listen to any of it. So as I am writing this, I am not so sure that my advice above will really work, but I do know that if I spoke with her about the Tech not working, that it would have been much worse. I think I have a chance to get through to her by talking about the bad Scn management.

FFL

 

[All Wrong Hubbard]

ABJ; They may be holding me over her to do the ot levels? Recover or else? No shit?

That's a new one on me. It makes sense in a way that those guys would do that.And to think people stay put and take it. I remember plenty of things I was 'forced' to do that just made me sick, and yet for years I did it anyway. Everyone I knew in the church did the same thing. Just amazing!

It is also crazy how fragile scn 'gains' are. How delicately balanced you must stay between being 'in', and any adverse contact with the outside world.

I could go on about this, but I don't want to change the subject.

Thanks to all for the input,

AWH

 

[Anne Ominous]

I seem to remember hearing that OTVIIs were being denied courses until Anonymous had been 'dissolved' (Int. still utterly fails to understand what Anonymous is and isn't). This would explain the increased effort to recover you.

 

[Feral]

I do not think this is possible, flag is utterly dependant on the revenue from servicing the 3 or so thousand solo nots public

I seem to remember hearing tha OTVIIs were being denied courses until Anonymous had been 'dissolved' (Int. still utterly fails to understand what Anonymous is and isn't). This would explain the increased effort to recover you.

 

[Stan D'Teque]

Good thread

 

[Stan D'Teque]

Feral mate - who said Management were currently capable of survival decisions. I think we're looking at Management circa March 1945, Nazi Germany - same result coming over the horizon and hopefully a real War Crimes tribunal for those in charge. AWH - there's been lots good advice here -pick and choose yourself. All I'd say is stay in touch - for life there is no Stan D'Teque!

 

[Feral]

Feral me old china plate - who said Management are capable of making sane decisions? Personal opinion only - I think Co$ has less chance of survival than Nazi Germany did in March 1945, and for the same reason. And AWH, keep the communication open with her is about all I can advise. There's been lots of good adice here - you see there really is no Stan D'Teque for any of this!!!

Yeh, Of course,

However they are 'sensitive' to any thing that cuts their income and will eventually twig that banning ALL of the OTVIIs from solo might affect the 'stats'.

But it would take a full Data Series invest first and several scape goats being RPFed before they would retract the orders!

 

[Stan D'Teque]

It would probably also involve a "Bright Idea" like all pre-OTs had to do special Flag-only elig to start on any AO service due to recently discovered arbitraries found on the OT materials due to SP photo-copy assistants tampering with the original LRH hand-writen materials. They could organize a whole event around it and stun us all with their wisdom and percption.

 

[degraded being]

If she has no real intention of listening to your needs and wants.......

Let her do what she wants.
She's a grown-up.

If she wants to stop communicating with you she has a right to do that.

You can still love her but if she uses disconnection as a threat or threat-by-others you can just let her know you will not try to prevent her from carrying out the threat.

The blackmail game evaporates if you tell her you do not mind her doing what she herself decides to do.

She may very well go ahead with it but you will have let her know the truth. That the blackmail part is all her problem and not yours.