Need help dealing wit an ot7

[anonomog]

I think she is pushing you to get back in Scientology because she isn't or won't be allowed to ginish her OT VII or go on to OT VIII if you don't. I know of several people on OT VII who are trying to handle immediate family relatives who left the Church because that is what they have been told; no recovery-no more auditing. So keep in mind that it may in her view be a matter of her eternity. So tread gently....
The Anabaptist Jacques

Thank you Anabaptist Jacques that is (re)enlightening to a wog. Somewhere amidst all this information and stories and escapes and horrors, I had forgotten/overlooked the fact that scientologists are thinking about their eternity.

Some things are difficult for me to understand. Trying to put myself in that position, my first thought was that if my sister was In. She would be well aware of the constant stresses and financial pushes and whatever she faces everyday and why on earth would she want to inflict the same on me, her beloved sibling?
You've answered that. thanks.

Back on topic:
AWH I am so sorry you (and so many of the ex 's here) have to endure the threat of disconnection and disconnection.

Advice?
Trust yourself. You already know what is right for you at this time.


I have seen enough of people deliberately wounding others under the guise of being honest, telling their truth, and then revelling in their own righteousness, to feel that sometimes the truth or honesty is not always the best way to go. However lying to yourself is always a disservice to yourself. So follow your heart. Wherever it may take you.

Wishing you and your family all the best.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

.... perhaps we should cease being at effect ... and tell them ('friends' ... relatives etc that are still in) that WE would prefer to dis-connect until they snap out of it!!!

They are no fun anyway!!! Boring as ...

Give em something to think about ... life is way more fun when you don't have to tippy toe around 'the subject' ... and I for one don't miss the 'guilt trip stare' one bit!



That said ... I DO miss my family ...

 

[thetanic]

If she has no real intention of listening to your needs and wants.......

Let her do what she wants.
She's a grown-up.

If she wants to stop communicating with you she has a right to do that.

That's not the point.

The real point: Current CoS policy means that all the power is in the hands of the disaffected family members.

So here's what I see as the possible games:

1) one plays along and pretends to get handled or reduce disagreements so the sister can continue on the bridge, which is a lie.

2) one says "no thank you," and then the sister is forced to either disconnect or continue to try to handle. Let's assume disconnect so that she can continue up her bridge. (handle would return us to choice 1)

3) at the point of disconnection, one always has the choice to protest in the loved one's name along with Anonymous. This will effectively get the loved one off the upper levels.

In other words, it's not up to the Scn how far they get up their bridge. Due to recent policy changes in the CoS, it's now up to their family members.

For this reason, I consider it more honest to say: "If you disconnect, I will protest at orgs in your name." Instead of putting the pressure on the ex, it puts a vector of counter-effort against the CoS as well.

Don't let them have all the power. Use what they gave you.

 

[All Wrong Hubbard]

Thanks again to all,

I am really getting a lot of good ideas from this. Much of what has been said is stuff that I had considered all ready, but lots of new info. Great stuff, truly.

Mr Trouble brings up a tactic that my wife and I have discussed before of us disconnecting from her. Sort of beating her to the punch. If it comes to that I think I will do it that way, but somehow leave a back door open if she wants to play nice.

I've had it with these scn nitwits. If they would just stop calling my house I would not be on this forum today. My sister is one thing, but I have gotten up to 4 calls per day lately. They seem to very self destructive when it comes to dealing with the outside world. Totally clueless as to what non scns think of their actions. Oops, I'm changing the subject again, sorry.

It is interesting how many of you have had a similar situation. I guess it shouldn't be a shock that mine isn't the only family screwed up by these people.

"Don't worry, you will have other families to treat better in our perfect OT world of the future"

Utter crap,

AWH

 

[Daisy]

Ah yes, family still in scientology. We were declared and got 2 letters of disconnection. Four members of the family disconnected, 2 were too lazy to write the letters I quess. These are my husband's family so I am aware that it is different for my husband.

What it means possibly: no more phone calls, no more family functions or celebrations with the entire family anymore. No big deal really since you hardly saw them anyways. Get to hear about family news through the grapevine from family members who don't think you're evil.

Not too bad when things are going well. But how about when things are not going well. Family members who are ill, dying or in trouble. Situations where those who have disconnected from you have no choice but to speak to you. And the whole time they are communicating with you , they are running their scientology program. Your opinion is not really worthy as you are an SP anyhow and hell you are probably the reason for all the accidents or illnesses anyways.

Personally, I am so tired of good roads, good weather crap. That is not communication. It is just a scientology handling. Truly, I just don't care anymore. I'm not a scientologist anymore, don't have to follow these stupid F****** rules.

 

[boonies]

Hi, I've read the responses to here. I can see all those viewpoints, but personally, I do have a sister and I would not want my sister or my nieces and nephew to disconnect from me for any reason whatsoever. That would be a loss I couldn't handle.

I'm trying to liken this to perhaps my stepfather who is fanatical when it comes to politics. My husband, in the opposite political party, continued this debate with him over their opposing views to the point where my stepdad was beginning to hate my husband and it was all he could think about when he talked to me even. My stepdad was trying to handle my husband on his political views and of course, my husband did not want to be handled. It was terrible and affected everybody in the family, seriously. The hostility went beyond just my stepdad to my mother, my sister and even my kids. It seems ridiculous, but it's not dissimilar, because you can see the arguements from both sides...well, the Democrats did this...well, the Republicans did this... It's an arguement neither could win.

I couldn't stand it any longer! Neither of them was going to "handle" the other, so I put my foot down with my husband and we decided on what to do. The next time it came up, my husband basically made a very clear statement that my stepdad had every right to his views because this is a free country and that we have the freedom to be in different political parties...then changed the subject to something they did agree on...hunting. It took a few times of doing this before the subject died, but it did die and my husband NEVER comments on anything political to my stepdad. There's just no point. Why antagonize him? You see, my stepdad never knew what my political views were, therefore, no antagonism from him on the subject. I don't see the point in us having that hostility between us.



If all you want is not to be disconnected from, then don't do anything that she would consider suppressive. Don't criticize Scn. Perhaps you can tell her something that acknowledges her right to be in Scn. and your right not to, without criticizing her for that. You don't have to make your viewpoint known on the subject, do you? And apply GRGW to her.

That's just how I would handle it because that's a loss I'm not willing to face, personally. You, of course, will have to play it by ear as she moves forward, too. But I'll tell ya, I would lie and cover up my true feelings re. Scn. if I had to, to maintain communication with her.

(By the way, it's now about a year since we started this tactic and my stepdad has actually said a couple of positive things about my husband's political party! In other words, things have changed for my stepdad.)

How would you deal with YOUR sister in a similar situation? I don't want to push back too hard, but I want to make her know that I am not coming back to the church. Period. I need to do this and still get our families together this xmas for dinner.

 

[Zinjifar]

There's only so far you can carry the 'don't discuss religion or politics' with a Scientologist (family member). Often they'll go along with not bringing it up, but, if they're ordered by the 'Church' to 'handle or disconnect' it's all over.

Because, 'Disconnection' is *not* a voluntary or optional step for a Scientologist. Often they'll say it is, for PR purposes, but, the orders come from on high. And if they fail to follow orders, *they* will be disconnected from, which for someone ensnared in the 'Church' is the same as damnation, especially when their employment too is with Scientologists.

It's really not very much like a political divide.

Zinj

 

[Wisened One]

AWH: Wheww, oh boy that's gotta be a delicate situation, there. Reading situations like these make me thank goodness that none of my family ever got in.

I've got a good friend who's still in....sometimes I wish to tell her how I'm 'out'.

Let me know what you end up doing and what happens. I wanna know, too!

Can't wait till the day, it'll be NO problem keeping relationships!

Michelle

 

[WildKat]

I think she is pushing you to get back in Scientology because she isn't or won't be allowed to finish her OT VII or go on to OT VIII if you don't. I know of several people on OT VII who are trying to handle immediate family relatives who left the Church because that is what they have been told; no recovery-no more auditing.
The Anabaptist Jacques

This is a major plot point here: "no recovery - no more auditing". Does anyone know if this is official policy now? Is it in writing? Is it just for OT VIIs or VIIIs?

This subject is very near and dear to my heart, because last year my life was completely torn apart by this issue. My husband had gotten back on lines after years of being off. We were both off and doing fine in life (better than when we were on, in fact) and then he decided to get active again. I will leave off a lot of details but the upshot is after months of seeing the handwriting on the wall, I made a decision....

I basically told him I loved him, he was free to do what he wanted, but I was done. One day I came home and saw a "program" he got that had one step on it "Handle your wife". And I knew that was the end. There was no more "good roads good weather." We had a long talk about it and I ended up saying something like "sometimes things don't go the way we expect them to but sometimes it's for the best." I packed some belongings. And I left. I drove and never went back. Thus ended 26 years of marriage.

In later conversations, I told him we could keep the marriage together but I could not do it in that environment (huge Scn community) and maybe he would want to move where I was. He didn't. Didn't want to even consider it.

Yes, this was all drastic, but I chose to handle with a "pre-emptive disconnection" because I figured that that was where it was going to end up anyway. Or I would be living a lie, and I couldn't take that anymore.

So here I am, talking about it. And a year later, my life is good. I have truly been blessed with a great job, a great house, reconnection with family, good friends, a new relationship.... But still a lingering sadness that it had to go the way it did.

Because I still love him and care about him. And wonder maybe someday....

 

[Div6]

I declared Miscavige as an SP. That means THEY are PTS to HIM, and they must either handle him or disconnect from him. The evidence is easy - book squirreling, asbestos in the FreeWinds killing all the OTs' and crew, orgs struggling, crew numbers shrinking, etc.


THat kind of haxxors them, as it shows you ARE applying tech, and thinking for yourself.

 

[Wisened One]

I declared Miscavige as an SP. That means THEY are PTS to HIM, and they must either handle him or disconnect from him. The evidence is easy - book squirreling, asbestos in the FreeWinds killing all the OTs' and crew, orgs struggling, crew numbers shrinking, etc.


THat kind of haxxors them, as it shows you ARE applying tech, and thinking for yourself.

Yeah!

 

[degraded being]

That's not the point.

The real point: Current CoS policy means that all the power is in the hands of the disaffected family members.

So here's what I see as the possible games:

1) one plays along and pretends to get handled or reduce disagreements so the sister can continue on the bridge, which is a lie.

2) one says "no thank you," and then the sister is forced to either disconnect or continue to try to handle. Let's assume disconnect so that she can continue up her bridge. (handle would return us to choice 1)

3) at the point of disconnection, one always has the choice to protest in the loved one's name along with Anonymous. This will effectively get the loved one off the upper levels.

In other words, it's not up to the Scn how far they get up their bridge. Due to recent policy changes in the CoS, it's now up to their family members.

For this reason, I consider it more honest to say: "If you disconnect, I will protest at orgs in your name." Instead of putting the pressure on the ex, it puts a vector of counter-effort against the CoS as well.

Don't let them have all the power. Use what they gave you.

I think my point is similar to yours but yours goes a bit further.
My point is just dealing with the anxiety that a person feels if there is a threat of disconnection.
All wrong hubbard said this;

"I don't dare tell her what I actually think of scn because I want to maintain the relationship we have, even if it's not great, at least it's something."

That type of anxiety can keep people trapped in looking for solutions. I was just saying that the anxiety part of it may be lessend by not playing into it.
What you say about protesting etc is going further, and it does not conflict with what I have said as far as I can tell. Perhaps I could have pointed out in my post that I was limiting it to one aspect of the situation.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

This is a major plot point here: "no recovery - no more auditing". Does anyone know if this is official policy now? Is it in writing? Is it just for OT VIIs or VIIIs?

This subject is very near and dear to my heart, because last year my life was completely torn apart by this issue. My husband had gotten back on lines after years of being off. We were both off and doing fine in life (better than when we were on, in fact) and then he decided to get active again. I will leave off a lot of details but the upshot is after months of seeing the handwriting on the wall, I made a decision....

I basically told him I loved him, he was free to do what he wanted, but I was done. One day I came home and saw a "program" he got that had one step on it "Handle your wife". And I knew that was the end. There was no more "good roads good weather." We had a long talk about it and I ended up saying something like "sometimes things don't go the way we expect them to but sometimes it's for the best." I packed some belongings. And I left. I drove and never went back. Thus ended 26 years of marriage.

In later conversations, I told him we could keep the marriage together but I could not do it in that environment (huge Scn community) and maybe he would want to move where I was. He didn't. Didn't want to even consider it.

Yes, this was all drastic, but I chose to handle with a "pre-emptive disconnection" because I figured that that was where it was going to end up anyway. Or I would be living a lie, and I couldn't take that anymore.

So here I am, talking about it. And a year later, my life is good. I have truly been blessed with a great job, a great house, reconnection with family, good friends, a new relationship.... But still a lingering sadness that it had to go the way it did.

Because I still love him and care about him. And wonder maybe someday....

Phew! I want to give you a huge hug ... I am deeply impressed by your strength ... sadly, when he finally wakes up ... (and he will) you may not want him in your space at all ... still ... life goes on eh? (and yours sounds like its going on pretty well!!!) ...

'pre-emptive disconnection' ... LOL ... thats my kind of disconnection! (who the hell said they make the rules?).

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Yeah!

Yeah, also almost certainly right.

 

[WildKat]

Phew! I want to give you a huge hug ... I am deeply impressed by your strength ... sadly, when he finally wakes up ... (and he will) you may not want him in your space at all ... still ... life goes on eh? (and yours sounds like its going on pretty well!!!) ...

'pre-emptive disconnection' ... LOL ... thats my kind of disconnection! (who the hell said they make the rules?).

Thanks. I've had many people in my new life tell me how strong I must be. Sometimes I wonder though. It was very real to me that members of the Borg (Scientologists) will first try to "help" you to get back on lines and if you don't comply, they will then condemn you and threaten you. I didn't mention what hell I went through right before I left, contemplating suicide, the whole nine yards. A strange peace came upon me the morning I drove away. I knew then that I would be OK.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Hello all,

I am writing this thread to ask you for advice in dealing with a personal family matter. My sister has been in scn for about 25 years and is ot7. (By the way, I was in for many years also, but have been out for a long time.) For the past many years that she was in, and I was out we have had a strained, but friendly relationship. Her communication to me has been mostly good roads etc, and when I talk to her it's the same. We never talked about scn until recently, when she seems to want to bring it up in order to see where I stand on the subject. I know she is going to try to recover me, and that is going to be a problem if I don't handle this correctly.

I don't dare tell her what I actually think of scn because I want to maintain the relationship we have, even if it's not great, at least it's something. So far we have an unspoken agreement not to push the other too hard.

This agreement is seemingly coming to an end soon, because she is getting way more aggressive in her communication. She sent me the set of new books along with a letter explaining about the SP editors! I am getting phone calls now from orgs all over the place, and she has told me outright that she wants to handle me on scn.

If I tell her the truth about what I think, I know I will never see her again. Not only her, but my nieces and nephew also who have been raised in the cult, but are still good kids and I want to see them when I can. If I can keep the relationship intact, then there is a chance that some day if she has doubts, she may come to me to talk.

So here is where I need advice.

How would you deal with YOUR sister in a similar situation? I don't want to push back too hard, but I want to make her know that I am not coming back to the church. Period. I need to do this and still get our families together this xmas for dinner.

What do you think? Any hope?

AWH

Stonewall her. Make up or come up with a story (whether you want it to be true or not or include some or none or all of the details as to how you really feel is up to you) and stick with it. Just keep stonewalling her.

So, for instance, if what you wanted to say was that you're getting older and feel you need to take care of your MEST, job, kids, etc (I'm not saying it is your deal or what you should say, this is just a fr'instance) then stick to it. So if she goes on and on about it tell her "I understand, but this is what I'm doing right now. I have the siding to handle, my job, and so on. I'm going to do this in my own way and in my own time." then she comes back with "Scn can help you with that." or some such nonsense, tell her "I will be back in the Org when I'm ready." and just keep saying it. Do not let her "Q & A" you. Treat her almost like she's a police detective and you're being questioned. "I want my lawyer." "If you had nothing to hide you wouldn't need a lawyer." "I want my lawyer." "We're trying to help you." "I want my lawyer."

Some may call it TR3, but this isn't exactly that. You wouldn't JUST repeat phrases again. But stick to your guns and don't let her get you into any long discussions where you have to justify yourself. Even feel free to use comments like "The subject is closed."

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Thanks. I've had many people in my new life tell me how strong I must be. Sometimes I wonder though. It was very real to me that members of the Borg (Scientologists) will first try to "help" you to get back on lines and if you don't comply, they will then condemn you and threaten you. I didn't mention what hell I went through right before I left, contemplating suicide, the whole nine yards. A strange peace came upon me the morning I drove away. I knew then that I would be OK.

It's cultic indoctrination. The organization puts so much pressure on them. And they see people as things or situations needing "handling".

I'm incredibly empathetic to those who feel they have a spiritual avocation. I've always loudly defended them. BUT it cuts both ways. We all have the right to do what we think we should do and wish to do. No ideological organization is worth a shit if all it does is coerce and make out that something's wrong with YOU for not being there.

Those people really piss me off. They say Scn helps you with this or that. They say we should be more self determined. They say no one should suppress you. Then they proceed to flout all of that.

Stonewall any Scn'ist who comes at you who is telling you to get back on lines. If there's ever anything I can do or say to assist you, you have only to ask.

 

[thetanic]

That type of anxiety can keep people trapped in looking for solutions. I was just saying that the anxiety part of it may be lessend by not playing into it.
What you say about protesting etc is going further, and it does not conflict with what I have said as far as I can tell. Perhaps I could have pointed out in my post that I was limiting it to one aspect of the situation.

Ahh fair enough.

 

[sandygirl]

Oh boy excellent thread!!!

Hi AWH!! I have been in a similar situation. I don't mean to be negative but I have to agree with AJ
quote:

think she is pushing you to get back in Scientology because she isn't or won't be allowed to ginish her OT VII or go on to OT VIII if you don't. I know of several people on OT VII who are trying to handle immediate family relatives who left the Church because that is what they have been told; no recovery-no more auditing. So keep in mind that it may in her view be a matter of her eternity. So tread gently. But be honest. You could tell her you'll discuss it when you see her at Christmas.
I think you should expect the worst but hope for the best. If she is under pressure she will disconect from you if you don't return. As for the books, you can give them to her and tell her to give them to someone who will make use of them. But don't say this in a snide way.

I am in a very similar situation and have NO contact with my sister now!!! She absolutly cannot accept my decision to leave and I absolutly cannot stand another one of her fake, false, annoying, arrogant "recovery" calls. Since I already recieved one ridiculous KR about her illness (somehow this is pinned on me even though she had it for years, even while living in a different country! ) I too have chosen to disconnect from her. Although my parents (Scios-but no longer active) are upset, they keep out of it. The bottom line becomes a TRUST issue. Your sister cannot accept your viewpoint if she has been ordered to recover you!! This will be tied into her "RESPONSIBILITY" on her OT7. And, I think you will start to look for alterior motives in any comm you have with her.

Be honest in your viewpoint, say you no longer wish to discuss it IN ANY WAY, and then the ball's in her court!!

 

[thetanic]

I am in a very similar situation and have NO contact with my sister now!!! She absolutly cannot accept my decision to leave and I absolutly cannot stand another one of her fake, false, annoying, arrogant "recovery" calls. Since I already recieved one ridiculous KR about her illness (somehow this is pinned on me even though she had it for years, even while living in a different country! ) I too have chosen to disconnect from her. Although my parents (Scios-but no longer active) are upset, they keep out of it. The bottom line becomes a TRUST issue. Your sister cannot accept your viewpoint if she has been ordered to recover you!! This will be tied into her "RESPONSIBILITY" on her OT7. And, I think you will start to look for alterior motives in any comm you have with her.

I think a protest with Anon in her name would be very cool. Then again, apparently I am evil. (see avatar)