New and Looking for advice/help

guanoloco

As-Wased
You're response is essentially "Don't take this the wrong way, but you're a stupid idiot who knows nothing."

The irony here is that you are behaving like a Scientologist, who needs to school a stupid wog.

just because I'm not a Scino or an ex Scino doesn't mean I'm ignorant or haven't experienced dysfunction, or abuse. I don't need to and shouldn't have to wave scars around to you to prove to you that I understand how severe this can be.

So, here's my opinion: you're ill informed assumptions, are naive. You're choice of wording is quite undiplomatic and reckless towards someone who is seeking help.

If your idea is turn people away, remove any hope for help, and patronize them with LOL's than you're doing a great job.

You could have have gotten your point across much more differently...but what do I know? I'm just another stupid wog!

For all the other posters out there who have been so helpful, I thank you immensely. I'm sure glad your positive responses, encouragement, along with your experiences are the majority.

Well, it's not about me. I don't have a dog in the fight...and neither do you at this time. That's the point. The other point is this isn't about you, either. It's about your daughter.

In every "church" there's a shared list of declared enemies. These enemies are individuals and organizations. The self-help guru, Tony Robbins, is on that list. That's how "sane" it is. He's there, IMHO, because he and his efforts potentially direct money away from Scientology. Once on this list you don't get off.

Scientologists, from time to time, are assigned Lower Conditions for real and imagined infractions. When working out of Lowers they have to "deal an effective blow against the enemy(s)" of Scientology. In my experience it was common to select out enemies off this list when someone didn't have an enemy at hand.

What you are planning to do is to create a 3rd party Enemy Line PTS sit for Clears and OT Scientology whales in an effort that will be viewed as attempting to direct money away from Scientology. Why make that list?

Decades from now when this kid is a distant memory in your daughter's life...she has a career...a life...children...some unstable goof is working out of Lowers for being late to course or yawning in the Academy and he needs an enemy...

Now Louis FarraCON is railing on Leah Remini to defend Scientology.

Why whack a hornets' nest?
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
As an addendum to that, here's an affidavit from Mary Tabayoyon

http://www.clearing.org/cgi/archive.cgi?/homer/cd14.memo

And the Flag Order prohibiting "new children" in the Sea Org

http://www.carolineletkeman.org/c/archives/7567

The result of the above Flag Order was that female SO members would be heavily pressured to have abortions if they were "out ethics" enough to become pregnant.

I read somewhere that the Church now pays for birth control. For many years SO crew had to buy their own and often weekly pay would be from nothing to $20.00. Weekly pay between $3. - $10. was about average to my recollection. So women had to improvise, rhythm method, etc.
 

dipshin

Patron
As an addendum to that, here's an affidavit from Mary Tabayoyon

http://www.clearing.org/cgi/archive.cgi?/homer/cd14.memo

And the Flag Order prohibiting "new children" in the Sea Org

http://www.carolineletkeman.org/c/archives/7567

The result of the above Flag Order was that female SO members would be heavily pressured to have abortions if they were "out ethics" enough to become pregnant.

I know that these links were to make a point about the children of the SO, but one thing that stood out to me was also the fact that they admitted that there were failing orgs. This is completely contrary to what they portray. It's quite interesting that they tell the outside world they are growing and expanding, yet they are sending pregnant couples to failing orgs as punishment.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Class IV orgs, missions, staff, public have always been considered with disregard by the the management and Elite SO,
Since people are expected to end-up is in a SO compound either for services or to serv.

They only exist to feed the SO compounds with
- money
- public
- staff (to join SO)

This explains the non-stop vultures SO mission nto orgs and the non-stop depriving of their $$, puvlic and staff.
And this explains, why being sent to a Class IV org my be a punishment and downgrading one status.
 
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TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
I know that these links were to make a point about the children of the SO, but one thing that stood out to me was also the fact that they admitted that there were failing orgs. This is completely contrary to what they portray. It's quite interesting that they tell the outside world they are growing and expanding, yet they are sending pregnant couples to failing orgs as punishment.

It is probably a distinction without a difference but these people are being offloaded as a cost savings and PR handling as much as anything. If they just give them a few hundred bucks (in my day it was nothing) and put them on the street that would be bad PR. So by offloading them to a non-SO org they save face and still get the benefit of their cheap labor. There is no need to maintain an SO or non-SO child care facility so the parents get the full burden of raising them until they are old enough to join the SO with the parent's written consent.

But your point is well taken. Scientology is a very hierarchical class based society. Non-SO orgs look down on missions, SO orgs look down on non-SO orgs, Int Management looks down on SO service orgs, the elite units like the CMO and RTC look down on everybody and COB looks down on them. So within the SO, as in this order, we see Sea Org talking among themselves as though it is understood the non-SO orgs are in some kind of perpetual state of purgatory.

:notworthy:
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
I know that these links were to make a point about the children of the SO, but one thing that stood out to me was also the fact that they admitted that there were failing orgs. This is completely contrary to what they portray. It's quite interesting that they tell the outside world they are growing and expanding, yet they are sending pregnant couples to failing orgs as punishment.

One could say scientology is a PR world of bubbles within bubbles. And the bubble walls are composed of crazy house mirrors and one way viewing glass even to the outside world.

But the money keeps flowing into the sea org reserves because that is the one ingress point leading to the core regeneration of the bubble material. Materials, and activity are purchased with limited taps on the ingress pipe, and slave labor, decoy games and fraudulent promises and lies.
Of course the program was for certain hidden communication lines and eyes only. Certainly not for public member distribution and it is wonderful that it made out in the world outside the multi-set bubble. Definitely a peak inside of the haunted crazy house of mirrors.

Bedlam indeed.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
One could say scientology is a PR world of bubbles within bubbles. And the bubble walls are composed of crazy house mirrors and one way viewing glass even to the outside world.

So true!
Your analogy describes it so well.

Those $cientology bubbles can't be described for a ''realistic'' vewpoint. It's about non-existant parralel many universes and fake fabricated images of those fake worlds which are only existing in the mind of the believers (that it does exist)
 
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TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
One could say scientology is a PR world of bubbles within bubbles. And the bubble walls are composed of crazy house mirrors and one way viewing glass even to the outside world.

But the money keeps flowing into the sea org reserves because that is the one ingress point leading to the core regeneration of the bubble material. Materials, and activity are purchased with limited taps on the ingress pipe, and slave labor, decoy games and fraudulent promises and lies.
Of course the program was for certain hidden communication lines and eyes only. Certainly not for public member distribution and it is wonderful that it made out in the world outside the multi-set bubble. Definitely a peak inside of the haunted crazy house of mirrors.

Bedlam indeed.

I like the limited taps analogy. Kinda like, from each according to their ability and to each according to need...oh wait!
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
I like the limited taps analogy. Kinda like, from each according to their ability and to each according to need...oh wait!

For all that Hubbard ranted about Communists, what he spent his life doing was to create a communist society.

In a real-life communism, the PR is that you're struggling to create a better world, while the reality is that everyone is enslaved for the benefit of the people at the top. Whether it was the old USSR, or present day Venezuela, or Scientology, the guy at the top lives large, and the common people starve in a police state.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
I read somewhere that the Church now pays for birth control. For many years SO crew had to buy their own and often weekly pay would be from nothing to $20.00. Weekly pay between $3. - $10. was about average to my recollection. So women had to improvise, rhythm method, etc.

One major method was enforced celibacy, where one Sea Org spouse would be sent on mission for months at a time, or off to some place for training. Or the simple expedient of both spouses being too chronically tired to even be able to think of sex.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
I know that these links were to make a point about the children of the SO, but one thing that stood out to me was also the fact that they admitted that there were failing orgs. This is completely contrary to what they portray. It's quite interesting that they tell the outside world they are growing and expanding, yet they are sending pregnant couples to failing orgs as punishment.

Orgs are currently nowhere near as busy as they were during the peak (I estimate that was in the 1970's). Once more books started to come out and people got more independent info, things started to go down. Once the Internet became common as a source of information, and all sorts of negative info about Scientology became available there (such as this site, among others) things started to really crash.

If you want to have some chuckles, check out the Scientology org locator at http://www.scientology.org/churches/locator.html and call some orgs or missions at random during the day. See how many even bother to have somebody answering the phones. (Don't forget to dial *67 first to stop your caller ID from coming up). At one point I dialed several Scientology missions, and got an answering machine responding for some private business.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Adding to what I said earlier, when I say "ruthless", I mean exactly that. If the recruiter sees your kid as an obstacle to their getting that kid, they will take measures to remove your kid from the scene.

As an example, take Andre Tabayoyon. Andre was a Registrar and Sea Org recuiter (among other things). I knew Andre, and liked him. I considered him a good guy. But, during his time as a "true believer", he was prepared to be ruthless if what was what was necessary to protect Scientology.

Affidavit of Andre Tabayoyon (1994)

In particular, look at his testimony on how he set up security at Int Base:

SCIENTOLOGY IS ARMED AND DANGEROUS

28. In 1991 I had to prepare the base so that it could be defended against the possibility of being taken over by the authorities in a time of crisis. There are approx. 750 people at the base. I was in charge of a project designing the base security system, the perimeter fence, the ultra razor barriers, the lighting of the perimeter fence, the electronic monitors, the concealed microphones, the ground sensors, the motion sensors and hidden cameras which were installed and all over the area -- even outside the base.

29. Church monies were used to purchase semi-automatic assault rifles (HK 91 assault rifles capable of firing 300-350 rounds of ammunition a minute, 45 caliber pistols, .380 automatic weapons and twelve gauge shotguns were stockpiled. These weapons were not registered. Church monies were also used to buy the ammunition.

30. Church monies were also used to purchase a large amount of pounds of gunpowder for the construction of various types of explosive devices to be used in the defense of the base.

31. The motorcycle guards were trained to carry loaded cocked 45 caliber pistols. The eagle scout, mounted high above the base, was trained to carry a high powered rifle with a telescopic scope. There is also a 1,000 millimeter telescope up with 'eagle'.

32. I developed three classifications of intruder and established the level of deadly force to use for each. In addition to firearms, the guards were taught how to effectively wield little batons. The basic things like striking to the center of the heart, the center of the solar plex and then to the side of the head, etc.

33. At church expense, I trained the security guards and other base personnel in the use of these weapons and explosives. I also trained them in the close quarter use of fatal force. We built a combat range for training purposes and I instructed Scientologists on various ways of shooting people. I also trained them in night vision and ambush techniques. We used a ravine that was a natural round shield so the noise would not cause any noisy inquiries.

Read the whole thing. Here's a nice guy, who nevertheless, when called upon to do so, used his military experience to set up Int Base security so that they were trained to use firearms and explosives to resist a police raid. Later in the affidavit he describes participating in efforts to use Scientology techniques to break the sanity of "enemies" and drive them into psychosis.

A "true believer" can be extremely dangerous if he is operating under the belief that he is safeguarding "the only hope for mankind". Trust me on this. I used to be a "true believer" at one time.
 
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ThetanExterior

Gold Meritorious Patron
As an example, take Andre Tabayoyon. Andre was a Registrar and Sea Org recuiter (among other things). I knew Andre, and liked him. I considered him a good guy. But, during his time as a "true believer", he was prepared to be ruthless if what was what was necessary to protect Scientology.

Affidavit of Andre Tabayoyon (1994)

In particular, look at his testimony on how he set up security at Int Base:



Read the whole thing. Here's a nice guy, who nevertheless, when called upon to do so, used his military experience to set up Int Base security so that they were trained to use firearms and explosives to resist a police raid.

A "true believer" can be extremely dangerous if he is operating under the belief that he is safeguarding "the only hope for mankind". Trust me on this. I used to be a "true believer" at one time.

They needed firearms and explosives because there are no OTs in scientology!

This is Jesse Prince talking about an incident at Gold Base when he was an OT7 completion:

"Later that night, there was a power failure at Gold and security guards informed us that there was a possible intruder on the base. About 200 staff were made to stand outside in a parking lot huddled close together in the dark while security looked for the intruder. I was so powerful as an OT that night that I got to hide in the dark with others who were just as OT as I was! "

Source: http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/CoS/Theology/
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
They needed firearms and explosives because there are no OTs in scientology!

This is Jesse Prince talking about an incident at Gold Base when he was an OT7 completion:

"Later that night, there was a power failure at Gold and security guards informed us that there was a possible intruder on the base. About 200 staff were made to stand outside in a parking lot huddled close together in the dark while security looked for the intruder. I was so powerful as an OT that night that I got to hide in the dark with others who were just as OT as I was! "

Source: http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/CoS/Theology/

Sounds less like an intruder, and more like somebody making an escape.
 

Boson Wog Stark

Patron Meritorious
I think you would be right in assuming the whale element in the story, the grandparents, make this a special situation. Since an attempt was already made to recruit your daughter's boyfriend into the Sea Org, it wouldn't be paranoid to think Scientology has a file on your daughter and your family.

As Scientology is collapsing, having lost its secrets to the Internet and through several books, TV shows, and movies, the whales are their most important asset. If I were in your place, the thought of all the machinations going on to protect the whale money would be unsettling, including the thought of them considering my daughter or myself to be a Potential Trouble Source.

You seem very well informed. I was never a Scientologist but have followed the cult for years.

The boy and his parents thinking about college is a good turn of events, although it could be a ploy by the boy to keep your daughter as a girlfriend. Yeah, him going to work for CCHR might be a tipping point though.

It's hard to know what's going on in the background but if the boy's parents may hate the idea of him going into the Sea Org, they might prefer that he go to college, except they might not mind if he wanted to work for CCHR, because it would be throwing a bone to the whale parents.

You wouldn't think his parents would need to be that zealous about proving they are good Scientologists, when Miscavige's father escaped and wrote a book, and he's got the sister getting in embarrassing criminal trouble. But you can't reason with Scientologists like that.

Even if Hubbard didn't believe in education, I think Duggan, Scientology's biggest whale does.
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
For all that Hubbard ranted about Communists, what he spent his life doing was to create a communist society.

In a real-life communism, the PR is that you're struggling to create a better world, while the reality is that everyone is enslaved for the benefit of the people at the top. Whether it was the old USSR, or present day Venezuela, or Scientology, the guy at the top lives large, and the common people starve in a police state.

That is one of those early Sea Org realizations about life and livingness, "Hey, I'm in a commune and this is Communism!"
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
One major method was enforced celibacy, where one Sea Org spouse would be sent on mission for months at a time, or off to some place for training. Or the simple expedient of both spouses being too chronically tired to even be able to think of sex.

Exiling your wife to some remote mountain retreat also works.
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Something about how the recruiters went to the home when the grandchild was alone keeps nagging me. This is going to sound conspiratorial but as a recruiter we wanted to get prospects alone. We could use the double teaming and divide and conquer Big League Sales Closing Techniques but it was much easier one on one or two on one. Other members of the family may have helped the recruiters know when to go to the house, or the grandchild may have been in contact with them all along and agreed not to tell anyone.

Also, establishing an in to the grandparent's inheritance slated for the parents or grandchild could be an underlying motivation and even the recruiters may not know this. Maria Pia Gardini's story illustrates their aggressive targeting of inheritances. Once in the Sea Org, the grandchild could be told that all of their needs would be cared for by the SO and they don't need the inheritance anymore - donate it to the IAS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3tIiv2Ke5s
 

dipshin

Patron
As an example, take Andre Tabayoyon. Andre was a Registrar and Sea Org recuiter (among other things). I knew Andre, and liked him. I considered him a good guy. But, during his time as a "true believer", he was prepared to be ruthless if what was what was necessary to protect Scientology.

Affidavit of Andre Tabayoyon (1994)

In particular, look at his testimony on how he set up security at Int Base:



Read the whole thing. Here's a nice guy, who nevertheless, when called upon to do so, used his military experience to set up Int Base security so that they were trained to use firearms and explosives to resist a police raid. Later in the affidavit he describes participating in efforts to use Scientology techniques to break the sanity of "enemies" and drive them into psychosis.

A "true believer" can be extremely dangerous if he is operating under the belief that he is safeguarding "the only hope for mankind". Trust me on this. I used to be a "true believer" at one time.


Chilling...very Waco-esque. It's like an alter-ego you put on to get through life and just keep your head above water.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Chilling...very Waco-esque. It's like an alter-ego you put on to get through life and just keep your head above water.

This is what I've been trying to get across about "true believers". Somebody who is convinced that Scientology is the "only hope for the world" can be truly dangerous. A true-believing Scientologist is somebody who believes that we are spirits only temporarily inhabiting our current bodies. He is somebody who believes that the spirits of this universe are on a "dwindling spiral", having descended over the aeons from being powerful beings, to the current state of being trapped in bodies and believing that bodies are all they are, on the way to a final state where they will spend eternity "in pain and in the dark".

Question: If you have somebody who thoroughly believes all that, what logically follows as to what would they be capable of?
Answer: Anything. Anything at all.

It's like with several ideologies, whether Communism, Islam, etc: if you believe your system will achieve Paradise, and failure of your system will produce Hell, then (unless your system has an internal moral code which explicitly prohibits doing violence in furtherance of it (and not even then, remember the Inquisition)) then many of the true believers will be capable of anything, if it can be seen to advance the ideology. Imprisonment, fraud, murder -- anything at all. It just depends on how much of a true believer the person is, and how much he is concerned that the act will have negative "blow back" upon the organization.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?16026-Rex-Fowler-Charged-With-1st-Degree-Murder!
 
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