New here. Need help with leaving

[NoName]

I rarely give advice, but here I will.

When dealing with ANYONE, whether a scientologist or a Christian or whatever, who has a specific worldview: LISTEN. Never challenge their worldview. Let them tell you all about it. Be human with him/them. Don't treat them like a cultist or like anything other than another human being, and in this case, a father. Be respectful. Your life is your own, as is his. You've formed a strong opinion of what you think his views are, but it doesn't sound like you've heard them completely. I agree that he's likely been coached to "handle" you. Still, take the high road. His intention is to help. His methods may be far from helpful, but that's a failing we could all suffer from.

That's my advice.

Steven Hassan's books "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and "Freedom of Mind" were really helpful with this idea. Also read at least the last bit of the story in my signature line where she gives advice on communication with cult members.

 

[Purple Rain]

Side note: I like how in the letter, he says it isn't his fault because she wanted to go to Nashville. She was 16 at the time and her family circumstances were shit. Newsflash: most teenagers want to get away from their family and town, and many of them make stupid decisions without critically evaluating them at first as long as it helps accomplish that goal. I don't believe in sheltering your kid, but there has to be a line drawn, and leaving your family indefinitely in a place far away is crossing that line.

Look, I've had teenagers outside of the cult, and if you take that as the whole story you'll be making a huge mistake. The whole family environment is ALWAYS horrible when you're a teenager apparently, but really they do just want to not be told what to do any more and get the hell out of there.

I had one daughter run away from home. She never apologised for that and she bloody well should. The reason? Her father and I went to her school to argue for why she should still be awarded her high school certificate, despite the fact that she'd been skipping school. She forgot about that and chose that day to play truant. He dropped me back at my house and waited for her outside her friend's house. When they saw him they ran off to this criminal older man and put us through freaking hell. I'm sure she told the whole world how horrible her life was, but it was all in her rebellious teenage head.

Meanwhile I'm picturing somebody throwing her dead body on a pile at the tip and pacing around in the worst agitation staring down the road just willing her shape to come walking down it. She put me through hell. For nothing except caring about her.

Then my niece ended up dying because I believed her lies over her family that loved her. She also just wanted to get away from her parents.

So if you berate him for that you could have real egg on your face. You don't know anything about it and she has the perspective of a teenager.

He obviously DOES care about his daughter. He's cared for her all of these years even if he was a cultie, and it isn't his fault she wanted to leave home at sixteen. Lots of people do. Once they're eighteen they're adults and there's NOTHING a parent can do.

So she needs to take responsibility for her OWN choices as far as that goes IMHO.

Okay, well now of course he will want to talk her into routing out. This is where his choice comes in as to whom he loves more. But bearing in mind HE would lose his wife etc if he chooses for her, that's a hell of a position for him to be in.

So have a bit of compassion. The guy is losing his daughter. She's an adult and he'll have to choose his own wife.

Unless he is prepared to sneak, but that still sucks. Just - yeah, he's a human being - and she does owe him a lot. Not every father takes responsibility for raising and caring for his own children. Those are my thoughts.

 

[Claire Swazey]

XKCD bfriend

Hi. I'd wanted to discuss parents, etc, for a day or two, then saw Purple Rain's excellent and heartbreaking pist.

I will still say my piece...

I speculate that the reason her dad talks as he does abt CofS is that it's his frame of reference. It's his church. He talks abt saving the world and all that because he honestly believes in the utopia bill of goods they sold him. He believes, as did I, up til abt a decade and a half ago, that Scientology is a new beginning and is the only thing that'll save civilization. Is he wrong? Hell yeah!! Does he know it? No. It seems nonsensical, but then again, true believers aren't known for objective dispassionate thinking.

So he feels he's giving his daughter good advice. He isn't trying to fuck up her life. But he is, unwittingly, giving her very bad advice. Just as he's not personally making good choices for himself.

He has been lied to. He is perpetuating those lies. Think of him as someone who's a carrier of a virus but who doesn't realize it. He would probably be horrified to realize he's proposing a horrible life for his daughter. Some day, he may wake up, Most culties do leave it.

This does not mean that xkcd should do what he's saying she should do. IMO,leaving the cult is the very best course of action.

But just because the man is an indoctrinated Scn'ist, doesn't mean that all his actions and emotions as a parent were 100 % bad.

 

[eldritch cuckoo]

Re: XKCD bfriend

He has been lied to. He is perpetuating those lies. Think of him as someone who's a carrier of a virus but who doesn't realize it.

Yes, that's a good way to see it, and as I think, a very therapeutical one. A meme virus, to be exactly. For a change, this provides a point of view that doesn't stress that 'olde' scheme of good/bad intentions (WTF, anyways?) or guilt for the moment and allows one to look in a more abstract way at human issues/entanglements or shit happenings that might be very upsetting all in all. From time to time and particularly if confronted with stressful situations, one needs to take a deep breath and take (snatch, grab - not "pick up") a moment to revise it all, and doing such mindgames might provide that moment.

I'm fairly sure that is some sort of hypnotical habit, provoking moments of mild depersonalization to gain some elbowroom for re-programming yourself. To gain the means to distance oneself from an issue, if but only temporarily (means, for seconds), might be a common therapeutic "tool", but for me it is a transhumanistic concept as well.


... I'd say from now on it's derailed from the topic ... That happens when I'm overtired, but I won't thrash that, no way:

Compared with other "viral" concepts (or vids, advertise strategies, trends, whatever, really... ), Scientology/Dianetics/Hubbardism is a meme virus with an astonishingly comprehensive and sophisticated RNA string that even has been built in multiple fail safes and very detailed, carefully laid out defense strategies (some dysfunctional on long term, some quite not), and the instructions for a quite endurable shell protecting the "heritage", plus toxins released to poison all competitors. Somehow Scientology is like the Pandoravirus amongst all viruses. "WTF is this?! What does it do? How does it do it? Why does it (he) do it? Gosh... that's lots of stuff crammed into that shell...!"

Hubbard was a nerd of mind control. Every piece of his heritage will stay contagious (waiting to recombine its effects with other picked up and used pieces) as long as not understood completely - by wog ways and scientific thinking, which will proof totally sufficient. Only that kind of understanding means to be truly aware of what Hubbard "tech" can do. And what not.


--- Sorry for derailing from the topic (family situations) with the last two paragraphs, but having touched the meme virus concept once I wanted to nail that down too, it's been in my mind for some time and that's not really enough for opening a thread.

 

[Enthetan]

Re: XKCD bfriend

--- Sorry for derailing from the topic (family situations) with the last two paragraphs, but having touched the meme virus concept once I wanted to nail that down too, it's been in my mind for some time and that's not really enough for opening a thread.

It's actually important and relevant to the thread. Boyfriend is actually having to deal with this sort of thing, so it's good that he has the info. Girlfriend has been away from the influence for long enough to start the process of snapping out of it. Dad is still very much under the spell. But he's still her dad, and should be presumed to be a dad who loves his daughter until he unambiguously demonstrates otherwise.

And having dealt with the hassle of fathering a teenage girl, I can vouch for what Purple says, about teenage girls often putting out a lot of drama.

 

[120 Degrees]

Sounds like excellent advice. If I could add: go ahead and meet with him. Have dinner, either at your place or a restaurant. See the town. Have a good time. Let him talk. When he's run out of stuff to say, then she can talk. Resist the urge to tell him he's wrong and Scn is a horrible cult.

But DO NOT agree to any meeting inside the org. If you go into the org, she will be meeting with a bunch of Org people, not her dad. It will turn ugly. She should also insist that you tag along at all times, to preclude him leading her into a meeting with other people.

I agree with you except that I wouldn't have Dad over to their apartment for dinner. I know I've read about this tactic of a friendly dinner/visit being used to get others inside the apartment to attempt a handling. Once Dad is inside and the Org reps conveniently appear knocking at the door it may be difficult for daughter to display a lack of hospitality and rudeness and cause a scene in front of Dad by refusing to let them in just to 'talk'. It would be easier to blow them off if they happen to show up at a restaurant where the members wouldn't want a scene either.

XKCD, Dad may have already planned to attend that seminar for a group that gets in regular FDA trouble, but it's also likely that they found something going on in town that he could attend just to get him in front of his daughter. I'm really curious what cartoon you're accused of being. That was just odd.

 

[Enthetan]

I agree with you except that I wouldn't have Dad over to their apartment for dinner. I know I've read about this tactic of a friendly dinner/visit being used to get others inside the apartment to attempt a handling. Once Dad is inside and the Org reps conveniently appear knocking at the door it may be difficult for daughter to display a lack of hospitality and rudeness and cause a scene in front of Dad by refusing to let them in just to 'talk'. It would be easier to blow them off if they happen to show up at a restaurant where the members wouldn't want a scene either.

XKCD, Dad may have already planned to attend that seminar for a group that gets in regular FDA trouble, but it's also likely that they found something going on in town that he could attend just to get him in front of his daughter. I'm really curious what cartoon you're accused of being. That was just odd.

That's a good point. Once a Scn is in the apartment, the only way to get them out is to (A) give them what they want, (B) call the police, or (C) forcibly toss them. They are DRILLED to take advantage of politeness and the common reluctance to "cause a scene" to get what they want. The problem for the Scns is that it's boyfriend's apartment, and if he's firm about not letting them in, there's little that Dad can do about it. The readiness to use (B) and (C) is something that boyfriend and girlfriend will need to get used to accepting, if they ever want a life outside Scn control. This week, however, may not be the best time for that.

It is a point in favor of meeting Dad at the lobby of his hotel, and going out to dinner from there.

 

[Adam7986]

Sorry for the lack of posts, but nothing of interest has happened until today. A few days ago, we sent her dad a letter saying that she's fine. Since it was sent a couple of days ago, he probably hasn't received it yet. However, today we got a letter from him that pretty much discussed the elephant in the room.

It was a few pages. He went on about how it saved his life and blah blah people are misinformed about it blah blah saving mankind blah blah. He said if she wants to leave she should properly route off (like they would easily let her go after ditching staff almost a month.) Then he mentions that he's coming to Nashville for a seminar next week (how convenient. He never visits her but is in town shortly after there's trouble in the cult) and he would love to see her and me. It's funny how dismissive he is about the flaws. He writes, "The staff schedule can be hard on a couple," which is the understatement of the century, "but it says a lot of a 2-D who supports you in a good cause." That cause isn't good, nor are you saving mankind. Feeding starving African kids is saving mankind. Creating a sustainable method of transportation that doesn't damage the environment is saving mankind. Slaving to a cult formed by a money-hungry, bottom-tier '50s sci-fi writer is not. Also, apparently I'm a cartoon.

It would be nice to meet him and tell him off about all that has happened, but that we need to be done in a non-Scientology trap.

It's typical good roads, good weather. He wrote it to try and appeal to you, as if somehow he will change your mind and so you will change hers. Which tells you exactly what I said, that they are blaming you for her leaving instead of acknowledging how she feels about her experience and that she could possibly be right. I recommend at this point that your GF write a letter and be just completely honest about how difficult staff was, how horribly she was treated, and that nothing he says is going to change her opinion. You're absolutely right about them wanting her to come back and just do it the right way. It's all an elaborate trap to get her away from you so they can try and force her to break up with you. It's horrible really. The worst part is her dad thinks he's doing this for his own good.

The truth is, like you said, there is nothing good or charitable about scientology. It's all about getting money for David Miscavige.

 

[Adam7986]

Side note: I like how in the letter, he says it isn't his fault because she wanted to go to Nashville. She was 16 at the time and her family circumstances were shit. Newsflash: most teenagers want to get away from their family and town, and many of them make stupid decisions without critically evaluating them at first as long as it helps accomplish that goal. I don't believe in sheltering your kid, but there has to be a line drawn, and leaving your family indefinitely in a place far away is crossing that line.

In scientology everything that happens to you is your fault regardless of age. If you are born with a physical or mental defect it's because you were a bad person in a past life. Scientology is very much a "blame the victim" type culture and you can find that among even ex-scientologists here and elsewhere on the internet that still harbor that mindset of "blame the victim".

 

[Adam7986]

Also, the nutritional seminar is a real thing. It's some Metagenics stuff. From what I've gathered, they're not Scientologist but many Scilons do like them.

All those scams essentially work the same. So they will all look and feel like Scientology. I've been tricked into a few myself when I was looking for work and promised a job interview only to show up at "global finance direct marketing" or "ambit energy" or some lame ass sh*t like that.

 

[Jump]

I'm really curious what cartoon you're accused of being. That was just odd.

I was going to lol that post, but there was too much great info in it.

'Xkcd' ... Google it

 

[xkcd]

I was thinking of a random name that wouldn't give away the identity, and for some reason the webcomic xkcd came to mind. And him accusing me of being a cartoon was a joke on the dad using Scientology lingo, referring to me as 2D. When I think of 2D, I think of cartoons.

 

[120 Degrees]

I was going to lol that post, but there was too much great info in it.

'Xkcd' ... Google it

Oh, hell. I'm now officially old. I feel like an octogenarian attempting to navigate 'liveporndating.com'. Thanks for being nice about it.

 

[degraded being]

Oh, hell. I'm now officially old. I feel like an octogenarian attempting to navigate 'liveporndating.com'. Thanks for being nice about it.

I am getting lost too, however xkcd's post below, got me focussing on "2d"
and now, referring to someone as one's "2d" sounds very cartoonish to me too.
And now, "me too" also sounds cartoonish.

I was thinking of a random name that wouldn't give away the identity, and for some reason the webcomic xkcd came to mind. And him accusing me of being a cartoon was a joke on the dad using Scientology lingo, referring to me as 2D. When I think of 2D, I think of cartoons.

 

[Purple Rain]

Oh, hell. I'm now officially old. I feel like an octogenarian attempting to navigate 'liveporndating.com'. Thanks for being nice about it.

I think living through the experience would be harder than the navigating! Lol!

 

[Enthetan]

Oh, hell. I'm now officially old. I feel like an octogenarian attempting to navigate 'liveporndating.com'. Thanks for being nice about it.

I would recommend against dating porn actresses. I've heard they're generally flakey. I have hung out with a few strippers, and they were mostly flakey.

 

[Purple Rain]

I would recommend against dating porn actresses. I've heard they're generally flakey. I have hung out with a few strippers, and they were mostly flakey.

If you're an octogenarian I doubt their flakiness would be the foremost thing on your mind, as you're probably not looking for a life partner for long. Lol!

Edit: Actually, when I am an octogenarian navigating liveporndating.com I will be intending to go out with a bang!

 

[Enthetan]

Edit: Actually, when I am an octogenarian navigating liveporndating.com I will be intending to go out with a bang!

I'm hoping that when I'm an octogenerian, I still have the ability to bang. Older women have it easier in that respect.

 

[Purple Rain]

I'm hoping that when I'm an octogenerian, I still have the ability to bang. Older women have it easier in that respect.

Well, get on with your push-ups! Lol!

 

[Enthetan]

I was thinking of a random name that wouldn't give away the identity, and for some reason the webcomic xkcd came to mind. And him accusing me of being a cartoon was a joke on the dad using Scientology lingo, referring to me as 2D. When I think of 2D, I think of cartoons.

At this point, you have given enough data here that the org probably knows you post here. Have you gotten anything from them about that?