New Indie Scientology Game Show: 20 QUESTIONS

Sindy

Crusader
Question:

As an Independent Scientiologist, why do you believe that many once dedicated Scientologists that leave the church, eventually want nothing to do with the subject and call themselves ex-Scientologists?
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Absolutely valid questions I would appreciate seeing answered also. I've tried this in a similar vein some few times in the past without clearly stated objectives or beliefs being addressed regarding Hublard/$ci/Policies.

I applaud you Hoax for starting this thread but seriously doubt any of the previously posted questions will garner attention, much less answers. People who still believe in the $cio philosophy and tek are still culties at heart and any comparative discussion is beyond them until they have had enough of $cio (Then we have another EX-$cio).


Yup.

But I can dream, can't I? LOL


ESMB POSTER
How come virtually every Indie refuses to communicate
to all the upper level OTs who left Scientology
just because they post on the ESMB 'natterboard'?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
......silence......

ESMB POSTER
How come you won't answer any of
my questions about the absence of even 1 Clear or OT
...or about Ron's criminality?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
......silence......

ESMB POSTER
Didn't Ron say that
communication is the universal solvent?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
Hey, Marty was RTC, I think he knows
a lot more about what Ron meant by
that than you do.
 
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Sindy

Crusader
:clapping::clapping::clapping:

That post uncannily captures the insecurely childish mindset of an indoctrinated Scientologist.

They run about indignantly lecturing others and chanting Hubbard quotes with great certitude. A Scientologist with tech is like a bike with training wheels. Both can furiously bepeddled/pedalled without worry.

Behind the authoritatively rigid mindset (aka 'holding their position') is a rather unsure individual.

Behind the feigned 'knowing how to know' it ain't pretty. Uh-Oh. I feel a rant coming on. LOL


EX SCIENTOLOGIST
So what do you know?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
I know that you are low toned natterer and hater
and source of entheta. And I know what Ron says
that theta should always cut an entheta line.

EX SCIENTOLOGIST
Did you also know that in today's blog, Marty
says Indies should stop calling Ex's natterers
and haters--and start using ARC to handle them?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
I didn't know.

EX SCIENTOLOGIST
Interesting predicament. Ron says to disconnect from
me but Marty has changed his mind and says not
to disconnect from me. So now what does your
knowingness tell you to do?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
My knowingness is to remain dauntless and defiant
while having integrity and insouciance, but keeping
the spirit of play for the greatest good.

EX SCIENTOLOGIST
That sounds like you are are freewheeling bumper
sticker jingles there. Are you okay?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
Well, actually I am a bit shaken by this new
scriptural revelation. I am so used to calling you
a low-toned, hating natterer and gloating
all over you in a condescending way--the same
way I contempuously regard those degraded wogs.

EX SCIENTOLOGIST
It's not so bad talking to Ex-Scientologists then, is it?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
...well no, this is really wonderful! It's so theta!
I love the fact that I can talk to you again Mom!

EX SCIENTOLOGIST
And you will take your mom's phone calls now...
even though I post on ESMB?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
Oh God yes! I always had knowingness that
that disconnection thing was crazy. This totally
indicates. Wow, I just cognited that I should
not have disconnected from you mom, because
Ron canceled the disconnection policy!

EX SCIENTOLOGIST
So really, Marty is just putting in KSW then and
doing what Ron said, right?

INDIE SCIENTOLGIST
Exactly! Wow you are so theta. I love you mom!
This so totally indicates!

EX SCIENTOLOGIST
Dear, today is the 1st of April. It's April Fools day
honey. I was just kidding about all that stuff.
Marty didn't say that today in his blog. He
actually said it's out KSW for an Indie to be in
com with an Ex.

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
OMG! That so totally indicates.

EX SCIENTOLOGIST
Again? You just said it totally indicates
the opposite way. How come whatever
Ron or Dave or Marty says to a Scientologist
'totally indicates' to them? Isn't that kind of
a brainwashed, weak cult mentality?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
I don't have to listen to your enthteta. You
are a low-toned natterer and as an Independent
I am now going to exercise my independence
and cut this entheta line.

EX SCIENTOLOGIST
I'd like to indicate that you are going to
disconnect from your mom again.

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
I don't need your damn suppressive indications, mom,
I'm an Indie Scientologist--I can think for myself!

This is hard hitting and sad.

Ya know, Independent Scientolgists don't follow many of the destructive policies but they most often (as far as I can see) blame those policies on Miscavige.

So often, there is an inability to recognize source which is exactly what LRH was railing against for decades.
 
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anonomog

Gold Meritorious Patron
Q: Please help me understand why you feel that repeating exactly the same formula will result in a different future outcome.
 

Captain Koolaid

Patron Meritorious
How can you "think for yourself" when an open-minded aopproach is expressly forbidden (KSW #1)? Why did Hubbard redefine the term "critical thought"? Would you consider that he attempted to stop Scientologists from evaluating his claims? If the tech makes people more intelligent, more aware, more perceptive, more ethical and increases the ability and willingness to confront evil, why did nobody identify Miscavige as evil (including Tubs himself)? Why did nobody stop him from taking over the "church"? Why didn't Hubbard use a smidgeon of his outrageous fortune to have his teeth fixed?
 

Gadfly

Crusader
This is hard hitting and sad.

Ya know, Independent Scientolgists don't follow many of the destructive policies but they most often (as far as I can see) blame those policies on Miscavige.

So often, there is an inability to recognize source which exactly what LRH was railing against for decades.

Didn't Hubbard talk about "obnosis"? The ability to "observe the obvious".

Didn't Hubbard mention "personal integrity" as being able to have be true for you what you OBSERVE to be true (and not what you THINK or BELIEVE to be true)?

It is so weird to me that any person grounded in these ideas would remain UNABLE to "spot actual causes". That is easily explained though. Scientologists, in or out of the Church, DON'T base what they accept as "truth" on OBSERVATION. They base what they accept as true on IDEAS (Hubbard ideas). Scientology is set up that way, no matter what Hubbard might "say".

They are stuck firmly in what Hubbard described as "thinkingness". If they simply jumped up the Know to Mystery Scale a bit, to LOOKINGNESS, they might notice that a great many things are NOT at all in alignment with their IDEAS about these great many things.

"Certainty" is an aspect of "thinkingness" that pretends to be "knowingness". This involves substituting "concepts" about things in place of "looking" at things and benefiting from the fruits of your own observations. It is so strange because Hubbard TALKED about all of this, yet Hubbard's organization pushes people to act in direct opposition to the ideas he often espoused. Hubbard WAS his own worse enemy - just as is Scientology.

And, too often the person who has left the Curch still carries a great deal of this nonsense with them.

You can take the person out of the Church of Scientology, but in too many cases, you can't take the Scientology out of the person. At least not without a long and gradual "destimulation" process (destimulation FROM the fixed ideas of Scientology).
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
1. Do you think that LRH made any mistakes that he hasn't freely admitted? LRH freely admitted that he had entrusted the wrong people at times. Aside from the mistakes that LRH allowed others to commit, how would you characterize the nature of LRH's mistakes?

2. Many auditors have lost their certs over the years. In fact, most seasoned auditors and C/S's have been retrained at some point. Should their pc's be sought out and informed that they may not have attained some of the states they thought?

3. What is your opinion of the repeated revisions that have occurred regarding the most basic parts of Scientology technology. LRH made numerous claims that a certain process worked 100% of the time, e.g. OpProbyDup to fully exterior, full perception, One Shot clear, Book One Dianetics Clears, PTS 10 Aug curing all sickness, Touch Assists. The expected result of those processes have been watered down since the initial release. Have you noticed a repeated pattern of CLAIMS that don't match RESULTS?


Ron? Admitting a mistake?

Like the 1958 Congress film where he admits that DMSMH does not produce a Clear?

Go ahead and ask a Scientologist or an Indie Scientologist if DMSMH should be altered to include the fact that it does not produce a clear "...in 20 hours of processing" the way the book so authoritatively claims.

Ask them if it is fraud to sell a book that asserts it is a "science of mental health" that can "erase the reactive mind"--when that book's author confessed, years later, that this was a lie.

Maybe it's just a coincidence, but how come Hubbard or Miscavich continue to make tone 40 assertions that the tech is 100% standard--up until the exact moment they have a new book or tech rundown to sell?
 
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Sindy

Crusader
I can't resist

"Why didn't Hubbard use a smidgeon of his outrageous fortune to have his teeth fixed? "

.....while making that a precept of the Way to Happiness.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
Yup.

But I can dream, can't I? LOL


ESMB POSTER
How come virtually every Indie refuses to communicate
to all the upper level OTs who left Scientology
just because they post on the ESMB 'natterboard'?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
......silence......

ESMB POSTER
How come you won't answer any of
my questions about the absence of Clears and OTs
...or about Ron's criminality?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
......silence......

ESMB POSTER
Didn't Ron say that
communication is the universal solvent?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
Hey, Marty was RTC, I think he knows
a lot more about what Ron meant by
that than you do.

HaHaHa, that's a classic, Hoax. :thumbsup: I also share that dream of seeing valid questions answered regarding WHY after leaving $cio, a person still generates continuing beliefs of workability. Pssst, hint, $cio is a scam, end of hint.

I don't follow Marty's Fog, err, umm, Blog, censorship is distasteful to me. If you are going to spell out "TRUTH", I see no need to delete questions or conversations unless Marty had something to hide or even more woe begotten, set yourself atop the lonely mountain as some form of $cio Savior Guru (GAG).

Back to being on topic. I'm asking the Indie crowd, what is your view on KSW? Keep it, throw it away or modify it? How prominent is KSW and is it enforced individually or held as a common group factor?
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
I can't resist

"Why didn't Hubbard use a smidgeon of his outrageous fortune to have his teeth fixed? "

.....while making that a precept of the Way to Happiness.
He was probably scared silly of dentists.. Like an immature snotty and cowardly little brat, whose mother neglected to teach him personal hygiene.

:yes:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
..

CURIOUS WOG
I am curious. Why won't you talk about
Ron Hubbard's criminal acts?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
I prefer to talk about total freedom.

CURIOUS WOG
Okay, then--let's talk about total freedom.
Do you think everyone is entitled to it?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
Oh my yes! That was so theta of you
to bring that up. I'd really like to validate
your intention to admire Ron's gift of freedom
to all beings everywhere.

CURIOUS WOG
Umm...I don't think Ron did that. As a matter
of fact he perpetrated a long evil crusade of
despicable criminal acts to deny an innocent
Paulette Cooper her freedom by framing her
and having her falsely arrested and
sent to federal prison.

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
I'd rather not comment on that.

CURIOUS WOG
Wutt? Why not?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
I don't want to be judgmental.

CURIOUS WOG
But, my god--Scientologists are the most
judgmental people in the world!

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
My mother always taught me that: "If you
don't have something nice to say about a
person, don't say anything at all.'"


CURIOUS WOG
Wasn't your mother murdered by cult leader
Jim Jones in the Jonestown massacre?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
My mom's not dead.
She's just off doing advanced spiritual research.


Sorry, I got carried away. I meant to just ask the Indie Scientologist these 2 questions:

1. Do you actually believe that Ron shed his encumbrance on his own determinism so that he could go off and do advanced spiritual research? (And if you don't believe that, why did you not ever dare mention that to anyone while you were in the CoS?)

2. As an Indie Scientologist, are there things that you do not dare mention now?​
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
lotus, I do agree with you in that most harmful acts committed by any humans anywhere are due to their beliefs. But If we attempt to police peoples beliefs we'll end up creating problems even worse than the ones we're trying to solve.

If we are to have a free society I'd say the ultimate solution is to educate people about cults and the methods they use to entrap people and implant crazy beliefs by way of various indoctrination and mind control techniques.

If we educate people than not only will we inoculate people from scientology but thousands of other religious, political, and other cults as well.

I get your viewpoint
I do respect people's beleifs

What I don't respect is what should be eradicate per any criminal law of most democratic countries - wich is any endoctrinement leading to any beleif of committing any criminal conduct in hurting other human beings when these human being are found to belong to a ''pseudo category'' of people we should get rid off or people that deserve to be abused.
(sp - psych - critics- gays - jews- muslims - christians - degraded beings - unproductives, women , baby girls )

This is a violation of the law in many countries to spread hate against such categories of people

Scamology spread such hate , and conduct destroying operations on people -
wich is part of the system beleif that such people are degraded, low tone and should be destroyed by any means , because their are unproductive, low tone or against ''us'' and our sacred mission on earth (wich include ''critics'' on esmb)

Even most of people here - good people - falls into such category and would seen them and their family destroyed if scamology would get more people to conduct such operation. We can still read the ''hate'' toward people freely speaking about LRH abuses. Usually, given means and power - hate call to action.

If one takes off all the abusing - hypnotism - mental brainwashing - hatred - scare of loosing one's eternity and freedom , human traficking, abuse of people driven psychotic , intelligencia , sec schecking , Xenu paranoid stuff, ethics , rpf and ''rehab'' , investigation, harassment , black pr , forced abortions , false emprisonnement , slave labour ecetera

What does remain as endoctrinement and beleif system ????:confused2:

(May be - ''I come to you as Metteya and all men shall be free
:bong::bong::bong::bong: )

Al Quaida , Nazism, human traficking organisation and mafia are not tolerated by law - nor their spreading of beleif system.

If this ''pseudo religion'' would raise in a reform movement we would be served, soon or later, the same abuses and the same extend - because it is what it is and is intented tobe what it is.
We all know why - we follow The ''wrong'' or we don't.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
HaHaHa, that's a classic, Hoax. :thumbsup: I also share that dream of seeing valid questions answered regarding WHY after leaving $cio, a person still generates continuing beliefs of workability. Pssst, hint, $cio is a scam, end of hint.

I don't follow Marty's Fog, err, umm, Blog, censorship is distasteful to me. If you are going to spell out "TRUTH", I see no need to delete questions or conversations unless Marty had something to hide or even more woe begotten, set yourself atop the lonely mountain as some form of $cio Savior Guru (GAG).

I'm asking the Indie crowd, what is your view on KSW? Keep it, throw it away or modify it? How prominent is KSW and is it enforced individually or held as a common group factor?


Great question!

Let's go ahead and ask an Indie.

This should be a fascinating exchange.


INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
KSW should definitely, absolutely be kept in 100%--
per HCOPL Keeping Scientology Working.

CURIOUS WOG
Doesn't that beg the question?

INDIE SCIENTOLOGIST
No. Ron has a policy against begging--
because it is out exchange.


Cog on having meaningful exchanges with Indie Scientologists: "If it wasn't for out-exchange, I wouldn't have no exchange at all."
 
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Sindy

Crusader
I am going out to run some errands but feel the need to say one last thing (Chatty Sindy lol) on this topic before I go.

I consider many people, who I believe would call themselves Indies, my friends. I will consider them so as human beings, not due to what they believe.

I was a truth seeker when I got into Scientology and have remained one. Being a seeker or one who wants to at least live with the truth, no matter what that is or who it does or doesn't serve -- is what ultimately got me OUT of Scientology.

Truth is truth. Ya can't spin it to make it anything different and still have it be truth.

A question to an Indie:

Do you consider yourself a truth seeker or one who wishes to always live with the truth?
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
One that I have in my mind since I read some indies

Q: Do you have any feeling you owe LRH loyalty and that it would be an act of treason or a huge sin to talk, expose, or even look at what , in LRH conduct and writting, have been recognized as destructive, sociopathic and or psychotic behavior?????
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
..

This is true. When I was growing up, my mom and dad (like so many other parents of that era) used to question some of my behavior by asking:

If one of your friends told you to jump off a bridge, would you do that?​

I did not get IA from my parents to use their trademarked technology, but I am going to ask Indies that same question nonetheless.

If your greatest friend told you to jump on a Bridge would you do that?
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I would say that it depends on the Indie. It's interesting how this term that I created has almost become synonymous with Marty Rathbun's disciples. Quite a few of them - and other FZers- seem chary of being TOO critical.

But be that as it may, I do know Indies who are aware and speak openly of everything you name here. I don't know that they comprise the majority, though. But there are some.

I always was like that, for example, when I was an indie.

So it depends.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
...


As I am reading many of the great QUESTIONS on this thread and writing about Indies, I have paused several times to reflect upon how an Indie reading this might feel that the posts are insulting.

They might also not read beyond the first sentences of the OP because this might not be considered theta or a safe space.

That is very much a part of why, I guess, Indies do not answer questions.

The no-answer really is so curious. Why?

The are any number of tributaries to the river of no-answer, including the concepts of entheta, natter, low-toned, unsafe space, counter-intention, merchant of chaos, hater, counter-productive, PTS, other-intention, out-KSW, out-PR, anti-social, suppressive, enemy line and just plain good old evil.

Personally, I would really hate to be a member of an organization or "movement" that had so many prohibitions on talking or exchanging ideas.

Why would someone hold onto so many blinders being placed on them by other people?

I guess this all boils down to the core question. What are they afraid will happen if they just openly talk about Hubbard and his voluminous policies about how one must behave? What is so fearful that one must never question Ron's bold assertions about Clear and OT when no evidence exists to support those claims?

Sure, I can understand why an Indie Scientologist (or Scientologist) would become upset when hearing frightful stories about what Ron and Scientology have been doing all these years.

I guess one could say that the truth about Ron and Scientology is just unconfrontable.

And these Indies are for the most part very highly trained, having case levels in the upper OT ranges.

If ever there was evidence that the tech didn't work, so many OT's being unable to speak certainly represents a profound case-in-point.

I also had the thought that perhaps that being so direct and offering up so much "forbidden" information might drive recovering Scientologists (i.e. Indie Scientologist) clear off of this message board. Is that a good thing? I had to think about that a moment...

It reminds me of some my friends and family (who are both Scientologists and Indie Scientologist) who have asked me to "tame down" my comments to them about Ron or the tech or the policies of Scientology. They expressed that in many different ways.

I have even been asked to "keep my TR-O in". LOL.

I have been asked to not talk about it.

I have been asked to put my attention on all the good things that I got out of Scientology.

I have been asked to be kinder.

I have been asked to be more tolerant.

I have been asked to do more research so I am not fooled by enemy line.

I have been asked not engage in so much gossip.

I have been asked to write it up so that it could be handled.

I have been asked to do volunteer work to help correct the problems in Scientology.

I have been pretty much asked to STFU or GTFO.

I have been asked to be or do many, many more things.

I think it's time that I stop being asked and start asking some questions myself.

Hence this thread.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I would say that it depends on the Indie. It's interesting how this term that I created has almost become synonymous with Marty Rathbun's disciples. Quite a few of them - and other FZers- seem chary of being TOO critical.

But be that as it may, I do know Indies who are aware and speak openly of everything you name here. I don't know that they comprise the majority, though. But there are some.

I always was like that, for example, when I was an indie.

So it depends.


Even when u wuz an indie, da inner gangsta inside was pickin' the lock on them theta handcuffs and fittin' ta blow. LOL.



fittin' ta blow -noun clause: 1. ebonic interpretation of the idiom "fixing to blow". 2. preparing to leave without a routing form.
 
THE SILENCE ABOUT SUCH THINGS IS DEAFENING!!!!!
Perhaps Marty, Mike, Tom & Gier didn't give them permission to speak? What we need here is some Scientology tech to make it easier for them:

"Did you think of something that would make me think less of you? What was it?

Is there something you thought of you think I wouldn't understand?

Have you said something you felt I didn't understand? If so, tell me again.

Have you found something you haven't understood? If so, tell me about it."

And one of my own invention:

Will answering our questions make you wrong?

Mimsey
 
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