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New SP Times article on abortions in the SO.

Discussion in 'Tampa Bay Times/SP Times' started by Mystic, Jun 13, 2010.

  1. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on


    You might have forgotten about this. . .

    SCIENTOLOGY RULE: Only SPs higher on the command channel can declare SPs lower on the command channel.
  2. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    LRH always envisioned that the children would have their own org, with it's own Commanding Officer, etc. It was always an insane idea. I mean, maybe in a sane environment this could work on some level but this is Lord of the Flies stuff we are talking about.

    Just forget all the policy. It is salve for the public. In the SO it is only applied where it is convenient. As soon as it's inconvenient it is countermanded by another policy depending on who is doing the interpreting. I want to say I recall reading where Hubbard hit some messenger while at La Quinta but nothing like what we hear about DM. LRH must have RPFed a thousand people, many for extremely capricious reasons, if you add up all the major RPF evolutions, the ongoing averages at all the various locations and the 15 years or so that he called the shots over the RPF, but I think he tried not to cultivate an image of personally physically hitting people. I could be wrong.

    I think most Scientologists dismiss these stories about DM until they have been run through the grinder enough to start developing doubts, or they figure that whoever it was deserved it in the name of the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.
  3. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

    Maybe you need to read more about LRH? This is not meant as a criticism.

    There are many tales of LRH being verbally and physically abusive to people. Listen to some of the interviews done recently by people who knew him such as Janis Gillham Grady.

    The "overboarding" of people was his idea of fun. Putting people in the chain locker, the RPF, all of this was LRH. He even ordered one of his messengers to spit in someone's face.

    All of the abuses in Scientology were started by LRH. DM is just following in his footsteps.
  4. Tuppence

    Tuppence Patron

    I either forgot about it or was unaware of it, still the irony that their mission is to clear the planet, yet they themselves are not yet "clear" still makes me giggle.
  5. Tuppence

    Tuppence Patron

    I think I can understand that. I think you're saying policies are just smoke and mirriors for the public and to appear legit. In regaurds to the abuses, I think you're absolutly right. People choose not to see abuses or excuse it as those who are being abused have brought it upon themselves and deserved it.
    TheOriginalBigBlue likes this.
  6. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Remember, the RPF is another LRH authored spiritual improvement program. It is "voluntary" and includes study and auditing. People agree to do the program in order to get rid of evil List 1 purposes and service facsimiles which we know to be true because the emeter confirmed it. It is a generous opportunity, a last chance for Sea Org members to handle their overt product making, inability to make targets, alter-isness of orders, etc. before being fitness boarded and routed out back into the wog world in disgrace.

    Sometimes it does seem that they get carried away with harsh treatment and deliberately degrading improvisations but we are at war. This is our last chance to save humanity and spiritual freedom for all eternity. The implant stations are still out there. If you die now you will get reeled in and given a routine implant to forget your past life as a Sea Org member. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
  7. Tuppence

    Tuppence Patron

    ThetanExtior, I don't feel the need to learn more about LRH as a person right now, maybe I will in the future. I also am not discounting the tales of abuse anyone tells. I don't mean to dismiss anyones accounts. Please don't mistake my ignorance as not caring or being dismissive. I do care, and I think it's horrible what people have suffered. The psycological, sexual and physical abuses are nothing to laugh or sneeze at and to dismiss them off hand I feel is as bad as the abuses themselves.

    Scientology taught me very well how to pull in the guilt (less so to blame others for what happened to them) and blame myself for EVERYTHING. I, to this day feel my mother's declaration is my fault due to the fact I told my older sibling when I was 8 that I had no intention of joining Scientology, 4 years later my mother was declared. Let's nevermind about everything else (might share some day, but not today).

    I recall the RPF being a punishment for "crimes" and I was "protected" from seeing anything worse than giving RPFers the least desired jobs. There were times we (the chidren) lost our duties in the galley, due to RPFers being given the work to do. I recall RPFers having to go around and pick up the dead rats, put the glue down to get the rats, or to hunt the rats. Some of us children made games out of the jobs given to RPFers. Didn't think anything of it really. I preferred the jobs I could do that didn't require me to pawn off Scientology on the public (hard to say what I hated more the dressing up or the selling something to someone who didn't want it). I liked being a go-for, because I felt useful, I felt I had a purpose AND I didn't have to get dressed up, I didn't have to sit still, I could run and burn off energy. When that wasn't needed I used to go around and give people backrubs for 5 minutes to each person I could find that would accept.

    I think I have as many fond memories as I do painful ones, to be honest. Growing up in Scientology was not all sunshine and rainbows, and it wasn't until my mom was out, that I realized I was given a unique childhood (to be kind). As for DM following in LRHs footsteps and continuing what he started, these are things when in I didn't hear about, and when my mom was declared Scientology was a non-topic. It is only now (Thank you Leah Remini) that I am seeing/hearing aobut LRHs own abuses. My heart breaks hearing some of the stories of people who were in Scientology, some things I can recall happening in NYC when I was growning up, others I had never heard of, a few things I had thought it only happened to me and it's what sparked this desire to face and heal. So I'm taking it one step at a time.
  8. Tuppence

    Tuppence Patron

    Was it really voluntary? and wasn't it grunt work to "make ammends"? and wasn't there a lot of public shaming?
  9. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I’m trying to give you a little window into the mindset of other crew members when they see somebody they know disappear from post and suddenly you are now having to interact with them as an RPFer. In 1977 Jesse Prince was physically forced into confinement for 3 months until he agreed. We all had the understanding that it is voluntary and I never knew the circumstances of his RPFing until he told his story on the internet. But if you pay a ransom to a kidnapper I guess from a certain perspective that can be considered voluntary. Look at all the things that will happen to you if you don’t agree to volunteer for the RPF. You get kicked out of the Sea Org and a humiliating goldenrod is distributed to your coworkers many of whom may be friends and family or know you and your family closely outside of the SO. You have little if any money or possessions. You may be far from any place where you can beg to sleep on a couch. You probably don’t have a car because you couldn’t afford the maintenance, gas or insurance. You need to get a job and start all over with Scientology to show on your resume as your last employer knowing they will either deny knowing you or give you a bad review. You might have other family members or close friends in the SO or as public Scientologists who could be adversely effected or who may have to disconnect if you get declared an SP, which is highly likely. If you are a true believer then this equates to losing your spiritual freedom forever, cancellation of all certs and awards, denial of the Bridge, you have to do A to E steps to get back in good standing, pay off your freeloader debt and redo all your auditing and training.

    If they sense that you have even the slightest willingness to cooperate and stay in good standing but you resist going to the RPF then they will send you to the RPF’s RPF.

    Jesse was RPFed in 1977. LRH was 2 hours away in La Quinta. Wayne was on an LRH mission answering directly to LRH. When Jesse was RPFed I think there were about 40 people on the RPF but it would soon go up to about 170 suspiciously coinciding with the need for laborers to renovate the Complex.

    After Wayne was tossed under the bus Captain Bill took over, again answering to LRH, during the AOLA renovations and put both EPF and RPF onto a 30 hours on 3 hour off schedule.

    So very early on you can see where people working very closely under LRH would put people on the RPF without any hearing, comm-ev or other internal judicial policy procedure or meaningful recourse, and even though the RPF was supposed to be a tightly run work/study/auditing program it could be turned completely into a slave labor camp on a whim. And conversely, if they discovered that they needed somebody back on post or for something else then they could be reprieved from the RPF just as quickly.

    This kind of thing defined the organization under LRH. You learn that this is SOP not the green vols. When I read about what is going on in the Church after LRH I find that it is all completely consistent with my experience and what I would expect of anyone who would become LRH’s successor. There were times when I had thought that his successor might be someone like Heber or Karen or Terri but in retrospect all of my personal experience showed that it was more likely to be like what we see now. The PR side of Hubbard was just that - PR. He lifted people up only to better serve him. The real driving force behind the organization was capricious cruelty.
    I was probably asleep for fifteen minutes [3:00] before someone came. “You must come and see, you know, Wayne Marple,” he’s the … Dead L. Ron’s henchman or whatever he was, you know. He’s connected to Dead L. Ron and he has the power. So they woke me up and they sent me down, and his name was Wayne Marple and he said, “You know, you’ve been doing kind of a good job around here but you weren’t supposed to go to sleep. You sleep when the job is finished.” Well, I used some rather colorful language on him and told him, “You know what? And on top of that, I’m out of here. Go to hell.”
    I turned to leave. He said, “Oh, you really think you’re gonna go somewhere, huh?” And as he’s speaking I’m being surrounded by these… people; I’d never seen them before but they were certainly larger than me. And he said “As a matter of fact, you’re going to the RPF.” [4:00] And I’m like, “What is that? Rehabilitation Project Force. I don’t want to rehabilitate anyone’s project. I’m outta here.”
    Literally, for the next three months, the people that grabbed me — physically, we were tussling — and they put me in a room, and locked the door and they had a guard on the other side. And for three months, somehow, I had become incarcerated. Not only incarcerated, now I’m in solitary confinement. And I’m just kicking the walls and I’m just going nuts and they’re coming in there, “You stop it, and you do this…” and this went on for almost three months. And finally, I’m like, “What do I have to do to get out of here?” And he said, “You must learn Dead L. Ron’s technology perfectly and apply it to yourself, and once you’ve done that and you still want to leave then you can go.” [5:00]
  10. Tuppence

    Tuppence Patron

    Sorry, I forget sarcasim doesn't translate well with text, as there is no "sarcastic font"

    I was trying ti (and failing) to communicate it wasn't really voluntary. The work one had to do was the work no-one wanted to do but had to be done.

    I remember walking in on a morning ___ briefing or something, I heard a lot of shouting and everybody had to say what they've done wrong, how they are going to fix it and what have you. These weren't even RPFers and once they noticied I was there, they had to step forward and identify themselves. They had to own up to their mistakes in front of me, it just seemed humilliating. I would then give massages and act as a go-for to try and help them achieve their goals. I had thought it was the least I could do.

    I appologize for any misunderstanding. The last thing I want to do is be-little anybody experiences or dismiss anything anybody has been through. I feel that would be so very wrong and insulting. It would be paramount to commiting the crimes all over again.​
  11. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    Children involve a long-term view and a willingness to make long-term investments. It takes at least 15 years to turn a baby into a useful staff member. In the early stages, LRH was willing to look long-term. That changed.

    Miscavige is definitely not willing to look long-term. He wants income NOW, as he has no way of being sure how long he can stay in charge of Scientology, or how long before Scientology implodes.

    There was also the potential legal liability involving children, particularly once the Sea Org was at fixed locations --- locations where government Child Welfare investigators may look into reports of neglect and abuse. LRH became increasingly afraid of attracting attention from governmental investigators.
    TheOriginalBigBlue likes this.
  12. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    You raise a very good point. There were inspections for child care facilities from the start and they were always a Hill 10 emergency just to get through the inspection and heads would roll. These facilities don't just have health inspectors. They can have building inspectors, code violation investigators, social services, fire department, police, process servers, etc. The facilities had their own GO Guardian to deal with all this. They serve to create a major ongoing point of intrusion by society and government. This must have been the basis for moving it to Mexico.

    Inspectors may tend to be lenient with non-profits and churches because they know they are not well funded and trying to do the best they can but inspectors can stay in these posts for many years and I'm sure after a while they have to crack down and the Church gets a bad reputation in the various departments. If something happens then there is this whole body of documentation just sitting there waiting to be used in court.
  13. Tuppence

    Tuppence Patron

    You make a logical point, though I suspect they start to see a return on their investment much earlier, as children hawking Dienetics will be able to make more sympathy sales and get people in the doors than teens or adults who would otherwise be slouphed off more as a neusence. Then there's the fact that children were also used for grunt work and did contribute to some of the productivity.

    Then when we factor in the fact that some of the children are "harvested" (want of a better word) at 12 into the sea org, or 8 to be sent to Delphi, in some cases. 15 is being gracious, kind and farther off than my older sibling who joined before they were 12, and on post by the time they were 14 (my mom was not yet declared) and I was being pressured to join too by the time I was 12.

    But yes, I agree children do require a long term investment and outlook. But if culling families started under LRH, then he too failed to see that as a possibility. DM (I feel) has always been very short sighted, maybe due to his training or his lack of faith, either way, it's damaging to so many.
  14. Tuppence

    Tuppence Patron

    I don't recall inspections of NYC, but I was not privy to all the goings on in the adult world, inspections could explain why the nursery kept changing locations. At one time it was on the thrid floor of 48th street, then it was moved to the second floor, then the main floor, then to the 4th floor of 46th street, then back to 48th street and round and round we'd go. things kept changing at one point the younger children were in COS on 46th street and the older children were still at 48th street, then a switch.

    Nannies changed frequently too. In my 12 years, I obviously don't remember the first few years, so let's be generious and say 8 years we had at least 10, most of whom's names I recall, this does not include the short time we had the children's theater with Juanita Garceia (no idea of spelling of her name), who had come from the LA Org with Justine and Jennifer Lipton.

    The inspections and turnover rates of Nannies probably didn't help CoS win any cases for childcare either.
    Enthetan likes this.
  15. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    It wouldn't surprise me if they changed locations every time there was to be an inspection. That is how they think.

    You may be interested in this thread:
  16. Tuppence

    Tuppence Patron

    Thank you, read some of the stories.
  17. Churchill

    Churchill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Important information like this can very easily get lost in the swirl of posts that follow.
    Thanks, Mick Wenlock.