Non Clear R- Factors

Lesolee (Sith Lord)

Patron Meritorious
Well the interesting question arises as to what would happen if we had an absolute Clear Certainty machine, a Banko-Photometer if you like. A device which you could look at a person with and it would visibly show you if the person had a Bank or not. Being an engineer, and working with imaging systems, it's the sort of device I would like to design. If only I knew what wavelength to use.:confused2:

Anyway, if such a device existed, would it be invalidative and or evaluative to use it to tell people they were not Clear and had more work to do? This would be a damn tricky area.

If such an exact definition and state of case existed, and if it could be verified by instrumentation, that would put a whole new slant on this arbitrary inval/eval stuff.

Of course the e-meter was supposed to do this for the original Clear tests, but then that all fell apart when "the upper level case" keyed in and messed up the readings.:bigcry:
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Well the interesting question arises as to what would happen if we had an absolute Clear Certainty machine, a Banko-Photometer if you like. A device which you could look at a person with and it would visibly show you if the person had a Bank or not. Being an engineer, and working with imaging systems, it's the sort of device I would like to design. If only I knew what wavelength to use.:confused2:

Putting myself into the Hubbard universe for a moment, how would you know that you were imaging the individual's personal bank and not some entities' bank(s) instead?

That aside, maybe some variation of a Hieronymous machine might work, U.S. Patent #2,482,773. I haven't looked closely into the possibility of using a Hieronymous machine for that, but it's not impossible it could work to some extent in the area.

Paul
 

Outethicsofficer

Silver Meritorious Patron
Well said.

This statement "I was also told to say that I was on an advanced program instead of saying..." Is the PR handling, they don't want to let anyone know what the real reason is!!!
The just didn't deliver because they couldn't. Never been able to, haven't and never will!!!

James


This thread PROVES that this Clear thing and even the OT levels is all CRAP.

95% told they were not Clear................what a criminal organization they have received millions world wide and delivered NOTHING :omg:
I too was given the non clear r-factor but being OT5 I first got told I had attention on OT5 and need to do it again, yea right (6 intensives), then later get told that I am not clear.

Why not just say so in the beginning, whats this "attention on OT5"

They lied to me firstly by saying I had achieved Clear and the subsequent levels and then lied about the attention on OT5 when it was actually that I was not clear.

I was also told to say that I was on an advanced program instead of saying that I was given a non clear r factor. Of course all the OT's around new what it meant this "advanced program" but at least it would not wave flags for those lower on the bridge about how could someone be OT and told he is not clear.:censored:
Another bloody lie :grouch:
There is no integrity in Scientology anymore, lies, deception and false promises on what the tech can deliver.:itstrue:
 

nw2394

Silver Meritorious Patron
The concept of Clear and OT maybe a great idea.

I beg to differ as to if this proves something about the state of clear one way or the other.

If an idea can not be brought about successfully into a product it makes no difference how good the concept is on paper. So far on paper its great but looking for the product of Clear shows its flaws you can't deny that.

It depends on which definition of Clear you think is the right one. Some of them seem to be unattainable - certainly not with any stability anyway. But there are a lot of definitions.

I try not to focus too much on the betrayal that some naturally feel (and indeed I have felt) - rather on what is worthwhile.

Nick
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
It depends on which definition of Clear you think is the right one. Some of them seem to be unattainable - certainly not with any stability anyway. But there are a lot of definitions.

I try not to focus too much on the betrayal that some naturally feel (and indeed I have felt) - rather on what is worthwhile.

Nick
I agree, Nick.
Did I go Clear? Yes!
Do I fit any of Hubbard's commonly known definitions of Clear? No!
Does that matter a whit? Not to me! :)
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I never had any real trouble at all with my own Clear designation, in the CofS or out of it. Up until the Dn Clear issue came out in late 1978, it was still fairly far off in the future. I had completed Expanded Grade 4, and needed very little repair generally, but for some reason I didn't see myself doing Power etc. any time soon. Then Dn Clear came out, I thought about it for a week or so, then decided it could apply, did the interviews etc. needed at the time, and was allowed to attest, and felt great doing so. Later the DCSI came out, and that went OK. I did the Solo Course and OT1-3. It wasn't without its ups and downs, but overall I got through it OK.

After my attest in late 1978 no-one in the CofS ever suggested to me that I wasn't Clear, and although I couldn't do the things Hubbard said in DMSMH, nor could anyone else that I knew of, so I just thought it was PR and didn't feel invalidated by his lies there. I sometimes had some doubts about my Clear status, but again they never really interfered with anything much or needed addressing in session.

In the past five years, I've changed my mind about the whole Clear thing, and now I don't really know what is going on. But it's all been MY changing my mind, not someone else coming along and saying "You _____" with regard to Clear and me believing them to some extent.

Paul
 

Challenge

Silver Meritorious Patron
There has been rumours that DM now says only those who did CC are clear. But he's not an acceptable tech source.

If as HD says 95% are being told not clear, would that include some who did clearing course?

Note OT 7s have been given the R-factor, not clear.

I don't think that those who went up the Grades and who did Dianetics to Case Completion would ever be told that they were not Clear. Altho they would prolly not accept the cancellation. I dunno. I can only speak for myself, but if some C/S decided that I was not Clear, I'd only laugh.
I'm not at all surprised at the cancellations. A lot of those who attested after 1978 got the idea of Clear, and they attested on that, believing that they were Clear.
We see it on the Boards. We see it on ARS, OCBM, here. Those are the only Boards that I have knowledge of. I'm speaking of some who claim Clear status, but who, yet, manifest terrible out-Grades.
I suspect that none of those who have had their Clear status revoked are Clearing Course Clears. Frankly, I am in agreement with that. But that's just me.
No cause for anyone to feel invalidated.

Chlng
 

Lesolee (Sith Lord)

Patron Meritorious
I'm speaking of some who claim Clear status, but who, yet, manifest terrible out-Grades.
I suspect that none of those who have had their Clear status revoked are Clearing Course Clears. Frankly, I am in agreement with that. But that's just me.
That's just you ...

and me too. :happydance:
 

nw2394

Silver Meritorious Patron
We see it on the Boards. We see it on ARS, OCBM, here. Those are the only Boards that I have knowledge of. I'm speaking of some who claim Clear status, but who, yet, manifest terrible out-Grades.

Does the fact that someone displays out grade symptoms necessarily mean that they are not Clear? (I would agree that this should be fixed [if they are interested in the symptom you think they should fix])

Another way of putting this, do the phenomena underlying out grades necessarily depend on the mind, let alone the bank?

Nick

P.S. The late Ken Ogger, who I certainly didn't always agree with, thought of the grades as the real OT levels. I think there is at least some merit that view.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Another way of putting this, do the phenomena underlying out grades necessarily depend on the mind, let alone the bank?

What else would they depend on — the weather?

Having made that smart-ass comment (I still haven't got used to making smart-arse comments again), there are phenomena like lack of sleep or too much sugar or a lack of B vitamins making a person irritable. Or one I've noticed in myself sometimes is the tendency to ridge when told what to do is far more pronounced if I haven't zapped (Hulda Clark) for a while, and goes away instantly if I do zap. But one could argue that although it is primarily the body being impacted in each case, the mind is affected too since they interact intimately.

But with someone who is perpetually manifesting ser facs in full bloom, for example, year in year out, one would think the mind is involved to a considerable extent.

Would you call Dianetic-type dramatizations out-Grades, Nick? It's hard to imagine they are not mind-related, considering how easily they can often be discharged.

Paul
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Does the fact that someone displays out grade symptoms necessarily mean that they are not Clear? (I would agree that this should be fixed [if they are interested in the symptom you think they should fix])

Another way of putting this, do the phenomena underlying out grades necessarily depend on the mind, let alone the bank?

Nick

P.S. The late Ken Ogger, who I certainly didn't always agree with, thought of the grades as the real OT levels. I think there is at least some merit that view.
I seem to vaguely recall that part of the original OT4 included checking and putting in any earlier unrun/unflat Grades Processes that were now reading as charged. Anyone else recall or have further data on that?
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I seem to vaguely recall that part of the original OT4 included checking and putting in any earlier unrun/unflat Grades Processes that were now reading as charged. Anyone else recall or have further data on that?

Sounds familiar. But go and read the stuff right now if you're interested. Google >>>wikileaks scientology<<< and download the tech volumes 1950-1984 file. "Volume 14" is 600+ pages of Power to OT VIII, mostly genuine, including the old OT IV, V, VI, VII.

Paul
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
LOL. I'm not THAT interested, Paul! :)
I just thought it might be considered pertinent to those questioning the idea of running Grades Processes after Clear.
I've audited many hundreds of hours of Grades Processes on Clears and OTs and always to good results.
 

nw2394

Silver Meritorious Patron
What else would they depend on — the weather?

Having made that smart-ass comment (I still haven't got used to making smart-arse comments again), there are phenomena like lack of sleep or too much sugar or a lack of B vitamins making a person irritable. Or one I've noticed in myself sometimes is the tendency to ridge when told what to do is far more pronounced if I haven't zapped (Hulda Clark) for a while, and goes away instantly if I do zap. But one could argue that although it is primarily the body being impacted in each case, the mind is affected too since they interact intimately.

But with someone who is perpetually manifesting ser facs in full bloom, for example, year in year out, one would think the mind is involved to a considerable extent.

Would you call Dianetic-type dramatizations out-Grades, Nick? It's hard to imagine they are not mind-related, considering how easily they can often be discharged.

Paul

Well, it is fairly clear (sorry for the pun) that NOTs was developed specifically to address Dianetic like phenomena on people above Clear. Of course, some critics will say that this invalidates Clear - and if you go with the DMSMH view of Clear I guess it does. Personally I don't think case is as simple as that.

What about O/W phenomena? I don't see that being Clear makes you exempt from that.

And so called "ser facs" - sure they are worse with a bank - but I see them as mainly stemming from what scios call GPMs (actual ones mainly - not the implant variety) - or what Alan and his crew would call Games Matrices. The fact that Hubbard abandoned research along those lines didn't make those matters go away.

Just because you're a Grade III release, does not exempt you from needing to get your ruds flown sometimes either - clear or not.

Enough examples?

Nick
 

nw2394

Silver Meritorious Patron
I seem to vaguely recall that part of the original OT4 included checking and putting in any earlier unrun/unflat Grades Processes that were now reading as charged. Anyone else recall or have further data on that?

The original OT IV, on the non solo part, had a lot of rehabs of previous grades. Obviously anything unflat or unrun would have to be picked up.

Nick
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Enough examples?

I guess. I read your post three times and I don't see how it relates to my idea of "the mind" at all. I don't think that it your fault, but that I have changed my points of reference and don't see a person's make-up in the Scn way any more.

Paul
 

nw2394

Silver Meritorious Patron
I guess. I read your post three times and I don't see how it relates to my idea of "the mind" at all. I don't think that it your fault, but that I have changed my points of reference and don't see a person's make-up in the Scn way any more.

Paul

Oh well - I thought we were going to get a good conversation going. Perhaps the fault is mine and I don't relate to your idea of "mind". Perhaps you have a link to a post where you define what you think it is - I read quite a lot of your posts - but I do tend to glaze over when you start going on about chakras and such things - so maybe I've missed it somewhere.

Nick
 
Clear Status

It's not so much the fact of whether someone is or could ever be "clear" but the fact that the orgs put that there as a very definite state that they promote and then have you attest to. That the status is later removed after the ORG has declared you Clear is completely ludicrous. It is not up to the Parishioner to determine how you get there or when you have arrived. The orgs must take responsibility for the correct application of tech and qual must ensure that they do. Note that Clears and OTs were given this R-Factor all over the world - there was no determination between time or how the status was achieved ie. OTs got it, post-GAT Clears got it, those who attested to Clear at Class V Orgs got it, those that attested at Flag got it, CCRD trained auditors and Class IX auditors delivered the auditing and their PC attested to Clear and then got the R-Factor. My point is that sure, there were probably some people who read The Way To Happiness, walked into an org and attested to Clear and probably shouldn't have - THAT'S MY POINT. They were allowed to, were certified and later had that taken away and that only says one thing to me: The Orgs do not know what they are delivering. Regardless of whether a person is Clear or not, the responsibility rests on the organisation certifying and delivering it in my opinion and they need to promote it correctly ie. this is a state that we may or may not be able to deliver and we may or may not change the delivery and/or your state in future, would you still like to hand over that $50,000? :duh:
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Does the fact that someone displays out grade symptoms necessarily mean that they are not Clear? (I would agree that this should be fixed [if they are interested in the symptom you think they should fix])

Another way of putting this, do the phenomena underlying out grades necessarily depend on the mind, let alone the bank?

Nick

P.S. The late Ken Ogger, who I certainly didn't always agree with, thought of the grades as the real OT levels. I think there is at least some merit that view.

I think that the real OT Level is Life, operating therein. Doing the Grades or any procedure called for is nothing more than a "boost" to get you ready to do better on that OT Level. If those actions aren't geared towards that, someone's getting ripped off.
 
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