Non Clear R- Factors

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
St. Hill size?? I seem to recall murmurings of that a long time ago. Are you sure you don't mean you'll get that candle "when your chain locker becomes the first Ideal Chain Locker in your hood?"

LOL.

Wow, that really indicated, so i donated all the money I had, borrowed more and made it go right. now I have an Ideal Chain Locker!!!

Hip Hip H------

wait a minute, I'm the only person around this place now...

What does the ideal source and the ideal cob say about the ideal com lag before any ideal people show up, ideally ?
 

archetypes

Patron with Honors
I think the misownership issue is way, way overblown. More than that, it is false and leads to a lessened responsibility level.

Hubbard invented the whole BT/Cluster trip. There do seem to be some related phenomena, but not the way he has it laid out. At the point of Clear, the individual supposedly "separates out" from the composite remaining BTs and Clusters he has around him in his immediate space, while realising he has been continuously moment-by-moment mocking up "his bank" (not that he DID mock it up way back in the past and has been carrying it along with him ever since but that he has been creating it in present time bam-bam-bam-bam-bam- . . . ).

After that it's pretty much all their fault!

I haven't spoken to him for a couple of years, but I used to chat a lot with Robert D. He has been auditing R3X full-time for a decade. He told me that he audits it on new people and on OT VIIIs and everyone in-between and very, very rarely runs into misownership troubles. He runs his version of souped-up R3R without worrying about ownership at all, and says it is very rarely a problem. The only time it is a problem is when Scios have been thoroughly indoctrinated into ownership worries and MAKE it a problem.

Personally I've done hundreds of hours of auditing on all kinds of things since leaving the CofS, and never had a moment of "ownership" trouble. The argument that I'm "not up to differentiating the charge" doesn't wash because I did just that very well in the CofS. Back in 2003 or so I found some charge that only resolved on being another's charge, but very remote to me, so I'm not going to be absolute about another's charge not sometimes impinging on one. But as a constant every-time issue that has to be checked before the fact, no way.

Paul

Today, when we were ending session, I told Robert that I still feel sad. He asked me to look at other comm lines about that and I immediately saw the sadness coming into me from some specific people, both living and deceased. And then I saw that I was "enjoying" their sadness -- the "Beautiful Sadness" aesthetic BS.

I suppose in that sense, I assigned other cause and then I was able to take "ownership" after admitting my aesthetic interests. We have not specifically run any chains re aesthetics but I have had some aesthetic releases from my overall auditing.

Isn't that how the implanters got one to hold onto a wacky message? Find the aesthetic that the thetan is hung up on and feed it back to him with a message, etc.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
It had been adjudicated that:

I was "Clear" when I got in in early 70s..was NOT Clear in 1978..was Clear in 1979..was NOT Clear in 1989...was Clear in 1989....was NOT Clear in 2003..was Clear in 2003..was NOT Clear in 2004..was Clear in 2004..was NOT Clear in 2007..was Clear in 2007..I doubted I was Clear in 2008..Oh..did I mention that I finished NEW NEW NEW OTVlll in 2003 or that I was on OTVll for 13 yrs starting in 1990...?

True story.

There are no Clears..
:omg:

Wow, that's really amazing -- and disheartening.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Once upon a time, think it was late 70's Rong realised that people were stalling on the bridge, he should have made more clears but they wernt happening. So he invented lots of different things like natural clear, (so if that exists DMSMH and the whole of Dianetics is pure crap). thousands of people attested over night to natural clear, or having gone clear on their drug rundown ten years before, etc etc etc. This got people in to the Orgs and some back on lines. Then they fell off again. DM's idea is to reverse this by telling everyone they obviously didnt make the grade of clear or they would be OT56 by now so it was a false attestation. Not the fault of the C/S Qual or whoever agreed to the clear state. Blame the public.

I believe that, as has been mentioned, there is no one that's actually achieved the state.
 

smartone

My Own Boss
You are now ready to be brainwashed into believing the reactive minds of thousands of disembodied space parasites aka Body Thetans are floating around in your head and need to be removed too.

:omg: How could anyone believe the BTs trash????? As soon as I found out about BS Xenu, I was :roflmao: Didn't get pneumonia either :whistling:
 

Challenge

Silver Meritorious Patron
Once upon a time, think it was late 70's Rong realised that people were stalling on the bridge, he should have made more clears but they wernt happening. So he invented lots of different things like natural clear, (so if that exists DMSMH and the whole of Dianetics is pure crap). thousands of people attested over night to natural clear, or having gone clear on their drug rundown ten years before, etc etc etc. This got people in to the Orgs and some back on lines. Then they fell off again. DM's idea is to reverse this by telling everyone they obviously didnt make the grade of clear or they would be OT56 by now so it was a false attestation. Not the fault of the C/S Qual or whoever agreed to the clear state. Blame the public.

I believe that, as has been mentioned, there is no one that's actually achieved the state.

The way I heard it at the time was that the IRS 'deal' was in the works, and Ron ( I am not *clear* on whether this was asked of Ron personally, or to his representative to the IRS meeting) had been asked..like... what is the product of Dianetics/Scientology?
Ron had replied with " our product is the State of Clear".
The IRS had said, " but there are only about 4,000 Clears after almost 30 years?!
At that statement, Ron instigated the 1978 crap about all kinds of Clears. To get the stats up to show the IRS that the stats of "the science" were surging upwards.
That's when scn'ists began referring to completions as " products".

chlng
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
He really cared eh!

If I believed in the tech I would have thought that it might have screwed someone up to attest to something not achieved, but he didnt care about case state, yep mankinds true friend!

So have they come off the stats now? If 95% have been uncleared thay means very few clears? Wonder how many....
 

Blue Spirit

Silver Meritorious Patron
THAT INDICATES

The way I heard it at the time was that the IRS 'deal' was in the works, and Ron ( I am not *clear* on whether this was asked of Ron personally, or to his representative to the IRS meeting) had been asked..like... what is the product of Dianetics/Scientology?
Ron had replied with " our product is the State of Clear".
The IRS had said, " but there are only about 4,000 Clears after almost 30 years?!
At that statement, Ron instigated the 1978 crap about all kinds of Clears. To get the stats up to show the IRS that the stats of "the science" were surging upwards.
That's when scn'ists began referring to completions as " products".

chlng

That sure indicates and aligns with everything else. :thumbsup:

It is the first I've heard of this, but it sure makes common sense.

From that point on everything seemed to really go to hell including the insane

monthly compounded price increases.

This is in spite of the fact of Ron's issue "1978, Year of Tech Breakthroughs".
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
The way I heard it at the time was that the IRS 'deal' was in the works, and Ron ( I am not *clear* on whether this was asked of Ron personally, or to his representative to the IRS meeting) had been asked..like... what is the product of Dianetics/Scientology?
Ron had replied with " our product is the State of Clear".
The IRS had said, " but there are only about 4,000 Clears after almost 30 years?!
At that statement, Ron instigated the 1978 crap about all kinds of Clears. To get the stats up to show the IRS that the stats of "the science" were surging upwards.

Speaking of, how many of you have two Clear numbers? I know it happened.
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Fascinating Rae!!!

Had just a minor run through of what you experienced.

So we have a very advanced, sophiticated therapy, spiritual therapy perhaps, which it appears dosn't reach the 100% standard tech which it aspires to.

There have been 50+ defs of clear.

I confess I have no answer to all this. I'm that rare thing a natural clear,
and I'm not sure what that is really. Best I can come up with I did great on OT 1-3.

Best I can come up with is, well I'm an FZer, do the bridge, thouroughly
and have fun.


The problem with C/Sing "The Bridge" as a standard to attain is that this is practicing para-scientology. The C/S is reading certain pc indicators to determine that a level is flat and an ability has been attained. But gee wiz, haven't we all seen the Grade 0 who can't communicate or the "OT" with service facs?

Para-scientology is that subjective part of scientology that cannot be proven: engrams, secondaries, BT, clusters, whole track, and so on. When the C/S is practicing para-scientology Grades attained cannot be proven either. You are looking for some wins and TA action. When the Grade is complete it is determined to be flat, that is, producing no more cognitions and TA.

Ugh. It's like this, you are auditing something that you can't prove is there to attain a Grade that you don't verify is complete by life stats. This could easily degrade into extended mental masterbation.

Scientology is that realm of objectives that can be proven or at least felt by the senses. Can your pc agree that there is a wall there? That's scientology.

The greatest disservice to a pc/client is to audit him or her on what you want and neglect what he or she wants. Sometimes you have to help the pc find out what it is they are trying to accomplish in life. They don't know what they want. You help them find out what their OWN goals and purposes are. LRH abandoned this in or around 1964.

The least an auditor can do is ask, "Would you care to set any goals for this session?" But that was dispensed with about that time.

After session(s), send your pc to the "Life Examiner." This term first brought to my attention by Alan Walter.

Life is where the pc lives, this is where the action is at. This is the objective universe of the pc. He's doing well, making his life stats and conditions, or he isn't. And, most importantly, they will be whatever he determines they should be, his standards, not yours.

Being Clear by a scientology standard is a good thing to attain, if possible. But do not neglect to observe that Clear is a marketing item. It is something to be sold. In a sense, it is L. Ron Hubbard's goal. In DMSMH it is so strongly sold that Hubbard has all bases covered. Certainly there is something therein in that definition that most anyone would find desirable. A person looks at the definition and says to himself, "Yeah, if I had that my difficulty with xxx would be handled!"

The pc's life, however, is unique so it doesn't automatically stack up to DMSMH or the Bridge. The best way to work with a pc/client is to find out what they want then help them get it. (Also an Alan Walter basic.)
This doesn't mean "Going up the Bridge" unless this has become the new want for the pc. Underlying that want, there are goals, purposes, ideal scenes, and so on, that have taken a backseat to "Going up the Bridge." I like to find out what they are before undertaking a program. The pc says, "I want such and such grade." I wonder why? What does it mean to the pc, really?

So the DofP says, "R-factor, R-factor, you not Clear." I say so what? Here's what I want handled. How about a program to help me with that. I want lots of love in my life, a great spouse, steadfast friends, enough money to move freely in our society, and if I can have all that to my satisfaction, I'll help you get what you want. :thumbsup:
 

archetypes

Patron with Honors
Hi, Kathy,

I am a past-lifer too and was even audited by Ron plus some other interaction with him last lifetime. I left CofS and really wanted Dianetics style auditing and so started running my case using the R3X pattersheet and I went Clear 9/9/09. What a quantum leap. You don't need anyone to tell you you're Clear, you KNOW something big just happened in your space.

In my example, I went from being an old sputtering Mercedes motor to a brand new purring Ferrari, and I'm 56 years old now so it was a bit taxing for the body at first, but the body has come along now.

I saw the Buffalo Org made two Clears and I'm very happy for everybody involved in that cycle, but I have to say this, that being Clear outside the CofS gives us a lot more range of Freedom of Expression and Response-ability.

The worst invalidation I've gotten is from a friend who is into a lot of "density" and "dimensions" stuff that I never heard of until I left CofS, and she implied that I might be Clear only on the 3rd dimension.

Hell, she might be right, but I'm too busy being third dimensional right now to really let it get me down. Actually, I'm not going to let her in on this little secret -- that I go into a lot of different dimensions in my auditing sessions, the thetan being senior to all constructs.

Being Clear is a quantum shift and probably not an absolute -- I still have chain-running sessions 3-4 times a week and am running out GPMs, more Prior Cause incidents, SerFacs, etc., etc.

Getting out of the CofS is the best thing that could have happened for you and I am glad we are both good and "Clear" on that, lol.

love,
ME





HappyDays,

I experienced similar on my first CCRD - R-Factor given in January 1988. I was told after completing my CCRD that I was not Clear. Later when I was routing off of Mission Staff and my folder was reviewed by an C/S personally trained by LRH, it was his viewpoint/training/whatever, that I was actually Clear. He actually went to AOLA to convince them to give me a free CCRD to correct the issue. No such luck on a free CCRD.

In Sept./Oct. 1989 I went to Flag and redid the CCRD at my expense. Of course I answered all the questions the same as in the first CCRD. I had only done a Comm Course and a marital O/W write up. Nothing to change whether I was Clear or Not. The results of the second CCRD was that I was Clear. Which I "knew" and questioned how the results could be different. My auditor told me that the situation was being written up. I later found out that the C/S on my first CCRD was declared - don't know reason - but declared.

But I too got very sick after the first "not Clear" R-Factor. Not for 12 months, I had a toddler to care for. But the illness was very draining for the week or two that I had it.

I hope that you get an entire refund for all services delivered. I've heard that a lot of people are getting the same R-Factor. In fact, Good Twin thought that was why I got declared. She figured that someone had given me the "Not Clear" R-factor and I told the CofS where to "get off". Not the case. I left the CofS before they were given that opportunity. But I had gotten a Tech Est for about another 100 hours before I could get onto the OT Levels - granted I'd already done OT Preps and OT Elig and Solo 1. I was shocked at the 100 hours - what the hell could I possibly need? Besides, I'd just done about 5 - 6 intensives on Grade 4 (the lovely arbitrary Grades lots of us past life Clears got into in 1994). And with how slow and painful that auditing was, I had no intention of doing even more auditing.

Wishing you well, HappyDays.
 

archetypes

Patron with Honors
Yes, ask the PC what they want. My DofP asked me that. I said I wanted to glow -- now I laugh!!! Probably some hangover from some glow-worm incident 500 million years ago, lol. DofP says, "As soon as you go Clear we'll show you how to glow [nudge, nudge, wink wink] :) Cool!!! Where do I sign on for this "Clear" thing? Sneakee, sneakee.

I've never found anyone yet who is not sitting in an incident so I usually start the session by asking them that and off we go...works for pre-clears and OTs the same.

Found that this lifetime gains can be had more quickly and stably by restricting recalls to this lifetime only before running chains to basic-basic. Auditing pre-natals in my case blew the most charge. Running rudiments initially are what brought my body back from the dead, almost literally.

I found one has to sort of suspend their usual 3rd dimension way of experiencing and learn to speak the language of imagery and not worry if what they recall is real or not: If it blows charge and one gets VGIs, cogs and F/N who cares if you were the Dark Lord of the next universe over!!

I agree with your suggestion that the pc set a goal before session. In my last session I was just hoping I would get through it without having to use my barf bag :) But seriously, looking at what you suggested, I would probably have to say my goal is to know a higher truth and an earlier or another Prior Cause (namely ME).

Since I went Clear this year I want to fiddle on the rooftops and tell everyone about how wonderful it is to be able to hit the "All Clear" button so I can well understand Hubbard had an idea of what a wonderful world this would be if we had more Clears. And, yes, he did like money coming in the coffers. I like money too, but I like Clears even better. We probably wouldn't even have a monetary system if we had a society of Clears, just a humble conjecture there.

I especially love your last paragraph in your post -- good uptone handling!!:thumbsup:







The problem with C/Sing "The Bridge" as a standard to attain is that this is practicing para-scientology. The C/S is reading certain pc indicators to determine that a level is flat and an ability has been attained. But gee wiz, haven't we all seen the Grade 0 who can't communicate or the "OT" with service facs?

Para-scientology is that subjective part of scientology that cannot be proven: engrams, secondaries, BT, clusters, whole track, and so on. When the C/S is practicing para-scientology Grades attained cannot be proven either. You are looking for some wins and TA action. When the Grade is complete it is determined to be flat, that is, producing no more cognitions and TA.

Ugh. It's like this, you are auditing something that you can't prove is there to attain a Grade that you don't verify is complete by life stats. This could easily degrade into extended mental masterbation.

Scientology is that realm of objectives that can be proven or at least felt by the senses. Can your pc agree that there is a wall there? That's scientology.

The greatest disservice to a pc/client is to audit him or her on what you want and neglect what he or she wants. Sometimes you have to help the pc find out what it is they are trying to accomplish in life. They don't know what they want. You help them find out what their OWN goals and purposes are. LRH abandoned this in or around 1964.

The least an auditor can do is ask, "Would you care to set any goals for this session?" But that was dispensed with about that time.

After session(s), send your pc to the "Life Examiner." This term first brought to my attention by Alan Walter.

Life is where the pc lives, this is where the action is at. This is the objective universe of the pc. He's doing well, making his life stats and conditions, or he isn't. And, most importantly, they will be whatever he determines they should be, his standards, not yours.

Being Clear by a scientology standard is a good thing to attain, if possible. But do not neglect to observe that Clear is a marketing item. It is something to be sold. In a sense, it is L. Ron Hubbard's goal. In DMSMH it is so strongly sold that Hubbard has all bases covered. Certainly there is something therein in that definition that most anyone would find desirable. A person looks at the definition and says to himself, "Yeah, if I had that my difficulty with xxx would be handled!"

The pc's life, however, is unique so it doesn't automatically stack up to DMSMH or the Bridge. The best way to work with a pc/client is to find out what they want then help them get it. (Also an Alan Walter basic.)
This doesn't mean "Going up the Bridge" unless this has become the new want for the pc. Underlying that want, there are goals, purposes, ideal scenes, and so on, that have taken a backseat to "Going up the Bridge." I like to find out what they are before undertaking a program. The pc says, "I want such and such grade." I wonder why? What does it mean to the pc, really?

So the DofP says, "R-factor, R-factor, you not Clear." I say so what? Here's what I want handled. How about a program to help me with that. I want lots of love in my life, a great spouse, steadfast friends, enough money to move freely in our society, and if I can have all that to my satisfaction, I'll help you get what you want. :thumbsup:
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
Great post, Happy!

Please read my post about engrams and DNA and tell me if it helps.

:)
 

ScnRebel

Patron
Here are my 2 cents worth...

I walked into Scientology in 1989 after reading Dianetics and told the Div 6 Reg that I was clear. He invalidated this very nicely and said that there was no possible way I could be Clear. So I started the Bridge. I did each action that was that required. At first it would go well, and I would have wins, but I would eventually fall on my head, have an Int Rundown, do a C/S 53, find that I was overrun, and then attest. I got half way through Grade 1 and read on "Past Dianetics Clear". I then did the CCRD and was proclaimed Clear!

I then did my OT levels up to V. In 2007 I was told that I had to do the Advance Program. I did not feel it was the right action, but knew that I would not be able to get any further up the Bridge untill I had done it, so I decided to just go with it. After my first session I got really sick. I blew the AO after about 5 hours of auditing and left the country. I went back because I was so totally stuffed, that I knew I had to just somehow get through it. Back in the auditing again I got sick again. At some point I got so pissed off that I just refused point blank to do anymore. They then did another action which made me even more pissed off. Eventually they did a listing and nulling action where they asked me something like "How did you get a bank". I then gave them the Clear cog that I had given about 10 times in the past. I was told that was the correct answer, and that was the end of the Advance Program. I then spent an intensive to clean up the whole cycle and handle the bypassed charge of having to do the cycle.

At one point when I was being particularly troublesome on the cycle, I had a D of P interview with Shane Brockdoff (Nots C/S at ANZO). From this interview I managed to extract/figure out what they were looking for. It is not enough that you give the clear cog. It is not even enough that you give the clear cog while you are auditing on NED. There has to be evidence that you have actually run Engrams. You have to have actually contacted somatics. You have to have been through heavy unconsiousness. You have to have run long enough. And you have to originate the Clear cog in a Dianetics Session, accompanied by the proper meter phenomena. Anything else is not valid. And if they have to put you through hell doing the above, so be it.

My problem was that I went Clear past life. I have excellent recall on this. The problem is that they could never find the folder. This is probably because of the fire at Saint Hill where loads of folders were burnt. So although Scientology definetly believes in Past Lives, if you come in saying that you are a past life clear, you are really stuffed nowdays, unless you can find your folder. You will end up having to re-do all of your grades, and NED, and it does not matter how much that messes you up. Ask me.

In OT V you find out why you should not audit a Clear on Dianetics. This was totally real to me, and explained the shit I had had on all of my previous auditing.

So that is they data about why everyone is being put through this cycle. :ohmy:
 
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