Not all the way "out" yet. My views and introduction

[EP - Ethics Particle]

"hunt & peck"!

Paul,
How do I use it...I'm not Ms techie on computers...I can barely type. I'm thinking of taking an alias...Badtypist and using it instead of Nicki!
Nic

You are doing just fine, Nic! Now just take the bull by the horns and get yourself an awesome avatar up...OK?

EP

 

[Kha Khan]

but I think the problem here has a simpler explaination and may be more about the fact that I'm not answering or responding with what you want to hear.

No. My problem is that you are not answering or responding to the point that I have repeatedly made, and supported -- i.e., that most, if not all, of the harmful acts done by Scientologists are consistent with, and indeed dictated and mandated by, specific, identifiable, official Scientology texts and policies. HCOPLs. HCOBs. The Introduction to Ethics book. Science of Survival.

You repeatedly say that Scientology, as a subject, is not harmful, only individuals are harmful. My point is that any subject, philosophy or religion that teaches and instructs its adherents to disconnect from family members consistent with Scientology policy, to discriminate against "illegal pcs" consistent with Scientology policy, to demonize "psychs" consistent with Scientology policy, to coerce people to mortgage their homes and run up their credit card debt to the point of financial disaster, again consistent with Scientology policy, is itself harmful and wrong. My problem is not that you haven't given me a response I want to hear. My problem is that you will not, or cannot, respond to this point.

Sigh... or maybe you have responded to the best of your ability. Your ability being circumscribed by the fixed idea of "Scientology as a subject does not cause harm, only individuals cause harm." "It is all the fault of current management."

Hasn't everyone realized by now that KSW is the foundation of fixed ideas? The engine of fixed ideas? The reason why Scientologists can't confront Scientology? They can't look?

I know the above probably comes across as insulting. Probably because it isinsulting. And for that I'm truly sorry. I don't mean to hurt your feelings (though I doubt there is much danger of that) or drive you away (again, I doubt there is much danger of that) if you are sincere. But I'm reaching the point where I have little patience for Scientologists who can't or won't confront written policy, who can't or won't practice obnosis.

 

[Tiger Lily]

Paul,
How do I use it...I'm not Ms techie on computers...I can barely type. I'm thinking of taking an alias...Badtypist and using it instead of Nicki!
Nic

Hi Nicki,

EDIT: Nicki -- Paul posted later in this thread -- I'd do it his way. Like I said, I'm no techie either -- and he is.

I'm no techie either, but I think you can do it this way.

1. Go to the photo on the post that Paul sent
2. Right click and click "copy image location"
3. Go to your "User CP" (on the toolbar to the left under "home", right next to FAQ)
4. on the left click "edit avatar"
5. under that choose "use custom avatar"
6. put the curser in the "web address" window
7. hit Control-V at the same time to past the URL there

And then hit "OK" or "Apply" or whatever it says. I think that will work

-TL

 

[FlunkedForLaughing]

RE:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=8824
This was just what I needed to see...thanks!!!
Nic

Nicki,

You're welcome. I'm glad you liked one of the links.

It took me several months of looking online, reading, and bouncing ideas in my head to start to figure out what I felt was true for me and what was not. It was all quite a shock at first. It sounds like you are pretty certain about what's right and what's wrong, and willing to learn more. You might find your views change a bit over time as you come across more information.

In my opinion, the controlling part of Scientology, which is something you don't like, that's where Scientology crosses the line into being a cult. A cult will control it's members by controlling their behavior, thoughts, emotions, and information. The Sea Org is an extreme example of this. It is most definitely a cult. But even on a lower level, Scientology does this to Scientologists, at least the ones that allow it to happen. I think that would include the majority of Scientologists. Eventually they become non-thinking good little Ronbots. They seem to be self-determined, but are totally controlled. What's strange is the fact that auditing is supposed to release a person from this sort of thing.

FFL

 

[Nicki]

Is there somewhere in this thread where I was defending any actions of anyone in the management of the CofS?
You obviously haven't read my brief stories.
RTC doesn't respond to KRs...they don't care...that's my experience. You write the KRs.
You have no idea about what I've seen or know about, or how many things I looked at over the years.
I was in the SO in the 70's/80's and had a kid in the "child care org". I've filed my complaints.
So what are you doing about these things that you're going on about?
Why does what I think matter so much to to you?
Y'know...I hear so much complaining about "scientology"
and how abusive it is, etc. Speak your mind on this board...and I'm right back there...only it's just a hair nastier.
Nic

I call bullshit. How many examples have to exist before a cultural and systemic pattern of behavior exists? One? Three? Several hundred? Go read the myriad staff stories here. Go read Ex Scn Kids. The evidence of a widespread pattern is right in front of you.

It won't fix. It's part of the created culture of being "in". And frankly Scientology justice is a fucking joke, completely arbitrary and unable to resolve any of these outpoints. Locate an off policy or out-tech situatioin - I'll wait, it won't take long if you are honest...

Now write it up and pursue to fully handled. Go ahead, write up the KR, send it to RTC. IF it in any way impacts income or David Miscavige's opinion on Scientological things, you will fail. Actually you can add embarrassing or bringing to light anything at all that causes disrepute to a staff Scientologist. Or a celeb. Watch your C/Ses. If you do this consistently you'll find you are doing Sec Checks...

If you've been in for any period, you'll find that you have a long list of things you didn't handle, didn't confront that failed to make sense and never resolved. That list, that's the real Scientological "Church". Sure, much of the tech works, but as an absolute that falls way short, and the organizations, their cultural ethics, and their treatment of their people, their complete lack of loyalty in any form, show the policy to be abysmal.

 

[Nicki]

I don't care if you insult me. In truth, you don't know anything about me...so you can't...you're going based on what I've said.
You hate Scientology so much that the concept of individuals , people, separate from the organization seems to have disappeared.
Your problem with the church and mine are not exactly the same. I'm sure we can agree on a few items...but just because I'm not expounding, not attacking. not obviously anti-scientology or LRH....it seems to be a problem around here. Not mine.
I'm on my own journey....not yours.
Let it go.
Nic

No. My problem is that you are not answering or responding to the point that I have repeatedly made, and supported -- i.e., that most, if not all, of the harmful acts done by Scientologists are consistent with, and indeed dictated and mandated by, specific, identifiable, official Scientology texts and policies. HCOPLs. HCOBs. The Introduction to Ethics book. Science of Survival.

You repeatedly say that Scientology, as a subject, is not harmful, only individuals are harmful. My point is that any subject, philosophy or religion that teaches and instructs its adherents to disconnect from family members consistent with Scientology policy, to discriminate against "illegal pcs" consistent with Scientology policy, to demonize "psychs" consistent with Scientology policy, to coerce people to mortgage their homes and run up their credit card debt to the point of financial disaster, again consistent with Scientology policy, is itself harmful and wrong. My problem is not that you haven't given me a response I want to hear. My problem is that you will not, or cannot, respond to this point.

Sigh... or maybe you have responded to the best of your ability. Your ability being circumscribed by the fixed idea of "Scientology as a subject does not cause harm, only individuals cause harm." "It is all the fault of current management."

Hasn't everyone realized by now that KSW is the foundation of fixed ideas? The engine of fixed ideas? The reason why Scientologists can't confront Scientology? They can't look?

I know the above probably comes across as insulting. Probably because it isinsulting. And for that I'm truly sorry. I don't mean to hurt your feelings (though I doubt there is much danger of that) or drive you away (again, I doubt there is much danger of that) if you are sincere. But I'm reaching the point where I have little patience for Scientologists who can't or won't confront written policy, who can't or won't practice obnosis.

 

[Megalomaniac]

but just because I'm not expounding, not attacking. not obviously anti-scientology or LRH....it seems to be a problem around here. Not mine.

I can tell this ain't the first time someone tried to sell you a war.

I'm on my own journey....not yours.

 

[Nicki]

I think my "going off" about Dianetics was in response to someone asking me my opinion about something.
I felt that I was being really clear about where I stand.
I've read a lot before getting here....and more since I've been here. I'm not neccessarily commenting on everything. Not neccessarily agreeing or disagreeing. Is there a rule?

The interesting thing is that everytime I state my point of view, there are people who want to dispute it, or attack it. Fine.
I don't pretend to know everything but I'm very clear about the fact that just because someone has a terrible story or has written something about Scn or LRH..that this is pure truth.
I make my own evaluations of info..Don't you?
And do you feel you owe everyone an explanation? I don't .
Especially when some are now turning their upset about the cofs or scn toward me.
Why, because I find Scientology of interest and to my personal betterment -and I'm not afraid to admit it?
There are freezoners on this board...what are ya gonna do...set'em all on fire. (that's a joke).
So you got someone on this bord, who isn't buying tickets to the hate parade.
I have my beefs and disagreements. I have no idols.
I'm not that mysterious.
Worse...I really don't have a lot of emotional "charge" on all of this.:confused2:
That's probably what's upsetting some of these guys.
Nic

I don't think you can blame people after the way you busted in here and went off about Dianetics.
Then slowly told people how you feel. You presented communication then left a mystery sandwhich behind for members to guess at.

I'm just glad to see a Scientologist be open to reading things they would normally reject without any research at all. Although I must say, you are far from what I consider a "normal" Scientologist. I mean that in a very good way.

But if you haven't been reading much till you got here, I expect some changes of views from you if you read honestly. And I don't mean you'll come out the other side hating Scientology.....but more real about it.

 

[Carmel]

<snip>...but just because I'm not expounding, not attacking. not obviously anti-scientology or LRH....it seems to be a problem around here. Not mine.
<snip>

Nah, I don't think that it is a problem around here, not at all.

On this board there are people who see things in a very similar light to you but there are some who will have little or no tolerance for where you 'sit' (just as there is for me and just about everybody on ESMB). Generally we all get on well, despite our differences of opinion, because we do at least have something in common.

My advice to you would be to keep things in perspective, and not jump to any conclusions about anything being a problem around here. Others have expressed their opinion and you are entitled to express yours. If any of us put something out there in regard to our beliefs, there is no doubt that there'll be at least someone who will have a counter opinion and express it.

Carmel

 

[Nicki]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

Now, on this point:
"But even on a lower level, Scientology does this to Scientologists, at least the ones that allow it to happen. I think that would include the majority of Scientologists. Eventually they become non-thinking good little Ronbots. They seem to be self-determined, but are totally controlled. What's strange is the fact that auditing is supposed to release a person from this sort of thing. "

It IS supposed to...the current management has changed the tech.
A lot of people left and are leaving...that tells you something. The robotons are snapping out of it. Not all of them are robotons...some think they can do something about it and stay too long.
It's different for everyone.
Alot of people want to be able to apply Scientology without a management team dictating to them and altering the things that do create benifits and that work. That is their choice to operate outside of the confines of an oprganization that has grown out of control.
In my opinion (unwavering) that IS NOT Scientology..
that is a group of people using it to control other people.
Scientology is in the books and tapes, etc.
THere are policies that I agree with and don't agree with.
It doesn't kill the whole subject for me.
Nic

 

[Nicki]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

Now, on this point:
"But even on a lower level, Scientology does this to Scientologists, at least the ones that allow it to happen. I think that would include the majority of Scientologists. Eventually they become non-thinking good little Ronbots. They seem to be self-determined, but are totally controlled. What's strange is the fact that auditing is supposed to release a person from this sort of thing. "

It IS supposed to...the current management has changed the tech. My early years in Scientology were fun and life changing in a good way.
A lot of people left and are leaving...that tells you something. The robotons are snapping out of it. Not all of them are robotons...some think they can do something about it and stay too long.
It's different for everyone. Remember...individuals?
Alot of people want to be able to apply Scientology without a management team dictating to them and altering the things that do create benifits and that work. That is their choice to operate outside of the confines of an oprganization that has grown out of control.
In my opinion (unwavering) that IS NOT Scientology..
that is a group of people using it to control other people.
Scientology is in the books and tapes, etc.
THere are policies that I agree with and don't agree with.
It doesn't kill the whole subject for me.
Nic

 

[Nicki]

Oye.......
Sorry...don't think anything I say is gonna satisfy you...I give up.
Maybe I'll put the gloves back on tomorrow...tonight...I've got to get into some creation before I forget how.
When you quit lumping all Scientologists into one big ball...it'll be easier for you to get where I'm coming from.
How about if I said ex-scientologists are bitter, hateful and insulting...? Well I know that's not true...do you?
Best,
Nic

No. My problem is that you are not answering or responding to the point that I have repeatedly made, and supported -- i.e., that most, if not all, of the harmful acts done by Scientologists are consistent with, and indeed dictated and mandated by, specific, identifiable, official Scientology texts and policies. HCOPLs. HCOBs. The Introduction to Ethics book. Science of Survival.

You repeatedly say that Scientology, as a subject, is not harmful, only individuals are harmful. My point is that any subject, philosophy or religion that teaches and instructs its adherents to disconnect from family members consistent with Scientology policy, to discriminate against "illegal pcs" consistent with Scientology policy, to demonize "psychs" consistent with Scientology policy, to coerce people to mortgage their homes and run up their credit card debt to the point of financial disaster, again consistent with Scientology policy, is itself harmful and wrong. My problem is not that you haven't given me a response I want to hear. My problem is that you will not, or cannot, respond to this point.

Sigh... or maybe you have responded to the best of your ability. Your ability being circumscribed by the fixed idea of "Scientology as a subject does not cause harm, only individuals cause harm." "It is all the fault of current management."

Hasn't everyone realized by now that KSW is the foundation of fixed ideas? The engine of fixed ideas? The reason why Scientologists can't confront Scientology? They can't look?

I know the above probably comes across as insulting. Probably because it isinsulting. And for that I'm truly sorry. I don't mean to hurt your feelings (though I doubt there is much danger of that) or drive you away (again, I doubt there is much danger of that) if you are sincere. But I'm reaching the point where I have little patience for Scientologists who can't or won't confront written policy, who can't or won't practice obnosis.

 

[Nicki]

Ok Thanks...tomorrow...I've been playing volleyball all night and I'm exhausted.
Bye
Nic

Hi Nicki,

I'm no techie either, but I think you can do it this way.

1. Go to the photo on the post that Paul sent
2. Right click and click "copy image location"
3. Go to your "User CP" (on the toolbar to the left under "home", right next to FAQ)
4. on the left click "edit avatar"
5. under that choose "use custom avatar"
6. put the curser in the "web address" window
7. hit Control-V at the same time to past the URL there

And then hit "OK" or "Apply" or whatever it says. I think that will work

-TL

 

[Nicki]

You got it....

I can tell this ain't the first time someone tried to sell you a war.

 

[Nicki]

Cool.
I love the little head.
Either way...it's a "healthy" exchange of ideas!
Thanks.

"If any of us put something out there in regard to our beliefs, there is no doubt that there'll be at least someone who will have a counter opinion and express it. "

No doubt!

 

[Megalomaniac]

I'll jump in here, hope you don't mind...



1. Total accountability -- Anyone who has broken the law needs to face criminal charges. Make abusive treatment of juniors a crime. End the culture of fear and intimidations. ...

You're cool people. You're are definately able to hold a viewpoint..

Good chatting with you...

Nice talking to you, too. This thread is too active for me to follow, though.

Generally we all get on well, despite our differences of opinion, because we do at least have something in common.

I agree with Carmel. I usually do. But I recently sided with Alanzo the Armadillo, contrary to Carmel.

And I didn't get RPF'd or nuthin'. See?

 

[Tiger Lily]

lol -- I'm feeling relieved -- a little insouciance on this thread!! Yea!

Nicki you are doing great. You have every right to have the opinions that you have. You've established yourself now . . .people know where you stand. Hopefully the worst is over.

One of the things I like most about this board, and one of the reasons I joined and keep returning, is the freedom to share various opinions here and the banter that sometimes results. Usually it's relatively good natured, and sometimes I laugh so hard tears roll down my face. There are so many really sharp,clever, bright, funny people here. It gets even better as you get to know people's personalities.

So Nicki have fun here too.

-TL

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Nicki,
I just want to offer my view. First off, please understand that when someone disagrees with you, even strongly disagrees with you, they are not attacking you. And don't invalidate others who disagree with you saying their views are just group think.
Secondly, to me, you seem to be ashamed of Scientology itself. It is OK to feel ashamed about your religion, and that may explain why you personally invalidate those who ask you questions that may remind you of your shame. You’ve evaded the whole essential point that the abuses you wish to learn about are inscribed in the Tech itself. That may be a bit much to confront at first, so I can understand that a person would first have to hide their shame about their religion and insist that it is the bad apples causing the problem instead of the basic writings of the religion.
So I do understand your reluctance to discuss the tenets of your religion when you’re ashamed of them.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Carmel]

<snip>
I agree with Carmel. I usually do. But I recently sided with Alanzo the Armadillo, contrary to Carmel.

And I didn't get RPF'd or nuthin'. See?

Wut? When? Shit! I must have missed that!

Lucky you weren't bloody well RPF'd - ya ruddy turd! And a word of advice, maybe it's a good idea to not count your chickens before they hatch! (I'll have my beady eye on ya from now on young man! )

 

[Iknowtoomuch]

NM, I got Nik mixed up with NA...