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Not an ex-sci, but super curious!

Ririn

New Member
Hi! My name is Violet, and I am not an ex-scientologist, but have always been curious about Scientology!

I am really interested in talking about scientology with an ex-scientologist!

I'd like to talk about whether you think that if David Miscavige hadn't taken over for LRH, do you think the church would have taken off and continued to spread? Or do you think that LRH had already planted the seeds for it's top members to abuse and manipulate some of their most passionate followers? I've read examples of LRH's texts where he'd say one thing, but then express the opposite idea in another text...so I was curious. In a lot of ex-scientologist memoirs I've read (Ron Miscavige, Jenna Miscavige, Leah Remini, etc.), almost everyone insists that the majority of Scientologists are passionate good people--but why aren't the good people ever put in charge? I find it so baffling that the good people aren't looked up to? Then again, one could say a lot of good people with good intentions could do bad things with bad information...

Also--what policies do you think the church can do without? What policies could be crossed off to improve the church and maybe weed out people like David Miscavige?

I'm wondering these things, because even if one day, say--the FBI investigate the church and redact that they're a legitimate religion, it seems like a harsh thing for people who have dedicated their whole lives to the church to leave them high and dry of a religion that they truly believed in. Some may say these people are brain washed, but it's never a good thing to rip them out from something that they're brainwashed in right? What could get them to truly take the church's policy of 'think for yourself' seriously?
 

George Layton

Silver Meritorious Patron
Hi! My name is Violet, and I am not an ex-scientologist, but have always been curious about Scientology!

I am really interested in talking about scientology with an ex-scientologist!

I'd like to talk about whether you think that if David Miscavige hadn't taken over for LRH, do you think the church would have taken off and continued to spread? Or do you think that LRH had already planted the seeds for it's top members to abuse and manipulate some of their most passionate followers? I've read examples of LRH's texts where he'd say one thing, but then express the opposite idea in another text...so I was curious. In a lot of ex-scientologist memoirs I've read (Ron Miscavige, Jenna Miscavige, Leah Remini, etc.), almost everyone insists that the majority of Scientologists are passionate good people--but why aren't the good people ever put in charge? I find it so baffling that the good people aren't looked up to? Then again, one could say a lot of good people with good intentions could do bad things with bad information...

Also--what policies do you think the church can do without? What policies could be crossed off to improve the church and maybe weed out people like David Miscavige?

I'm wondering these things, because even if one day, say--the FBI investigate the church and redact that they're a legitimate religion, it seems like a harsh thing for people who have dedicated their whole lives to the church to leave them high and dry of a religion that they truly believed in. Some may say these people are brain washed, but it's never a good thing to rip them out from something that they're brainwashed in right? What could get them to truly take the church's policy of 'think for yourself' seriously?


The philosophy of scientology is riddled with misinformation that can lead people to delusional thinking. Plus scientology is happy to charge you for this information. Plus scientology is happy to play on that delusion to get you to work many hours for little or no pay. I'd say it is better to be ripped out of a cult that has been ripping you off your entire time in it than try to fix something that is built to propagate itself. There is no baby in scientology bathwater. then again this is the opinion of a non-ex-scientologist.
 

Gib

Crusader
Hi! My name is Violet, and I am not an ex-scientologist, but have always been curious about Scientology!

I am really interested in talking about scientology with an ex-scientologist!

I'd like to talk about whether you think that if David Miscavige hadn't taken over for LRH, do you think the church would have taken off and continued to spread? Or do you think that LRH had already planted the seeds for it's top members to abuse and manipulate some of their most passionate followers? I've read examples of LRH's texts where he'd say one thing, but then express the opposite idea in another text...so I was curious. In a lot of ex-scientologist memoirs I've read (Ron Miscavige, Jenna Miscavige, Leah Remini, etc.), almost everyone insists that the majority of Scientologists are passionate good people--but why aren't the good people ever put in charge? I find it so baffling that the good people aren't looked up to? Then again, one could say a lot of good people with good intentions could do bad things with bad information...

Also--what policies do you think the church can do without? What policies could be crossed off to improve the church and maybe weed out people like David Miscavige?

I'm wondering these things, because even if one day, say--the FBI investigate the church and redact that they're a legitimate religion, it seems like a harsh thing for people who have dedicated their whole lives to the church to leave them high and dry of a religion that they truly believed in. Some may say these people are brain washed, but it's never a good thing to rip them out from something that they're brainwashed in right? What could get them to truly take the church's policy of 'think for yourself' seriously?

The purpose of scientology is to produce "clears" and then "OT's".

None exist. Everybody in scientology pays money to go up the bridge. Here's the bridge. To also note if one examines this bridge with abilities to be gained is that at present there are no OT levels above OT8 available to scientologists, and if one looks up the levels they are confidential and to note Hubbard died before completing this so call bridge to total freedom and admitted to Steve Sarge he failed. David Miscavige has been perpetrating a scam and he knows it:

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Ririn

New Member
The purpose of scientology is to produce "clears" and then "OT's".

None exist. Everybody in scientology pays money to go up the bridge. Here's the bridge. To also note if one examines this bridge with abilities to be gained is that at present there are no OT levels above OT8 available to scientologists, and if one looks up the levels they are confidential and to note Hubbard died before completing this so call bridge to total freedom and admitted to Steve Sarge he failed. David Miscavige has been perpetrating a scam and he knows it:

spaceout.gif
grdchart.gif


spaceout.gif

That's very true. Gosh, the bridge to total freedom still freaks me out looking at it since it looks like so much work, but I can imagine if people truly believe this, that it gives them serious hope for a better future. But I guess it's for them to realize on their own, and nobody can really give them babysteps out of there.
 

Ririn

New Member
The philosophy of scientology is riddled with misinformation that can lead people to delusional thinking. Plus scientology is happy to charge you for this information. Plus scientology is happy to play on that delusion to get you to work many hours for little or no pay. I'd say it is better to be ripped out of a cult that has been ripping you off your entire time in it than try to fix something that is built to propagate itself. There is no baby in scientology bathwater. then again this is the opinion of a non-ex-scientologist.

Ah, see--I'm a non-ex-scientologist myself, so of course I have my own opinion of Scientology as someone who's never had Scientology encompass a huge portion of my life. I've never even met an ex-scientologist, merely people who are interested in different religions that want to process why one starts believing in a new faith. Maybe I sounded like I think Scientology could be saved, I don't think it can honestly--not with the way it's going. I guess I'm curious as to what Scientology would be like in an alternate universe where people with good intentions and good information took Scientology forward. If an ex-scientologist started to question Scientology the first time, what do they think would have made them change their minds and stay?

But I see that what you're saying is that--because it's riddled with misinformation, and at it's core it's to misuse people...that it would always be this way. That's a solid point. I have to agree too, but mainly because I've never agreed with it from the start. Also reading Going Clear and hearing about what kind of a person LRH actually was, I have no doubt in my mind that Scientology didn't have a good start, and toward the end of LRH's life--he was rambling and going a bit mental...so he could have very well been the reason it's starting to crash and burn now.

I'm just rambling now...but this is so interesting to think about, thank you for replying!
 

Gib

Crusader
Ah, see--I'm a non-ex-scientologist myself, so of course I have my own opinion of Scientology as someone who's never had Scientology encompass a huge portion of my life. I've never even met an ex-scientologist, merely people who are interested in different religions that want to process why one starts believing in a new faith. Maybe I sounded like I think Scientology could be saved, I don't think it can honestly--not with the way it's going. I guess I'm curious as to what Scientology would be like in an alternate universe where people with good intentions and good information took Scientology forward. If an ex-scientologist started to question Scientology the first time, what do they think would have made them change their minds and stay?

But I see that what you're saying is that--because it's riddled with misinformation, and at it's core it's to misuse people...that it would always be this way. That's a solid point. I have to agree too, but mainly because I've never agreed with it from the start. Also reading Going Clear and hearing about what kind of a person LRH actually was, I have no doubt in my mind that Scientology didn't have a good start, and toward the end of LRH's life--he was rambling and going a bit mental...so he could have very well been the reason it's starting to crash and burn now.

I'm just rambling now...but this is so interesting to think about, thank you for replying!

I have to ask, are you going to comment on the post I replied to you?

And if you do not, that raises questions in my mind if you really are curious about scientology or not. I await your answer as I am more than willing to discuss it or talk about scientology.
 
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Ririn

New Member
I have to ask, are you going to comment on the post I replied to you?

And if you do not, that raises questions in my mind if you really are curious about scientology or not. I await your answer as I am more than willing to discuss it or talk about scientology.

Hey Gib! I did reply to your earlier comment! But it obviously didn't go through--I've always been bad at understanding how to use these types of forums! But I totally agree with your earlier comment about going clear. They promise you powers and total enlightenment, and it's very misleading, but there are other religions that promise similar things if you devote yourself to their religion, they just don't have a clearcut method with an actual graph like Scientology does. But because Scientology does have that mega-intimidating spreadsheet, i guess it makes itself seem like it's got all the answers, but they sorta shoot themselves in the foot when they force people who is OTVIII to redo some courses.

But I am really curious about scientology. I am still not sure whether to call it a religion, ideology, or even a cult? What do you think as a former scientologist?

Again, sorry my earlier message didn't go through! I should have double-checked!
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Your query covers a lot of ground. I suggest that you read up on Jon Atack's "A Piece of Blue Sky".

http://www.instinct.org/texts/bluesky/contents.htm

Russell Miller's "Bare Faced Messiah" is also excellent.

https://www.holysmoke.org/cos/books/...ed-messiah.pdf

In a nutshell, Scientology was always doomed because it can't deliver what it promises and the policies LRH set in stone are self destructive. It was also a phenomena of the times which are now extremely dated. It was never designed to co-exist in a world with ubiquitous cameras and instant world wide information distribution capability available to anyone with any information about Scientology. LRH envisioned manageable censorship and damage control based on 1950s technology, media and social interaction.
 

Ririn

New Member
Your query covers a lot of ground. I suggest that you read up on Jon Atack's "A Piece of Blue Sky".

http://www.instinct.org/texts/bluesky/contents.htm

Russell Miller's "Bare Faced Messiah" is also excellent.

https://www.holysmoke.org/cos/books/...ed-messiah.pdf

In a nutshell, Scientology was always doomed because it can't deliver what it promises and the policies LRH set in stone are self destructive. It was also a phenomena of the times which are now extremely dated. It was never designed to co-exist in a world with ubiquitous cameras and instant world wide information distribution capability available to anyone with any information about Scientology. LRH envisioned manageable censorship and damage control based on 1950s technology, media and social interaction.

Oh wow, I actually haven't seen either of those links! Thank you so much!! I'm totally going to delve into these.

This part of your quote really got to me:

"It was never designed to co-exist in a world with ubiquitous cameras and instant world wide information distribution capability available to anyone with any information about Scientology. "

That's so haunting. I think I heard that in the Documentary 'Going Clear' too. LRH knew what he was doing when he wrote about how to control information that goes in and out of scientology. It's also a bad policy that scientologists can't even research the outside world info about their religion.

I, like many other kids in the 2000s, found out about Scientology when that infamous South Park episode popped up. Before then, there were already rumors that scientology was a religion that harassed people who found out information on the church that wasn't in the church. But with information spreading like wildfire, and internet being practically a tool for everyday life for first world countries now, even their bullying can't possibly keep up.

I know that the church blocks out websites in that are anti-scientology in the church, but do they have resources to monitor what their parishioners search for in their homes? Also, do they block out movies/shows you can watch if it stars an SP? Like--do they have a list of movies/music/games you aren't encouraged to consume?

Oh! Also--do they have websites that does the opposites to 'wogs'? Like--take down information of people who they suspect might be interested in scientology by a website they were tricked into visiting? Like a self-help site?

Sorry for so many questions (I hope other people answer if you don't feel comfortable answering all of this!), and thank you so much to replying to my post! And again, thank you for the links!!!
 

Helena Handbasket

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hi Ririn,

The U.S. Government, or at least portions of it, have been very interested in destroying Scientology. Why? This devolves into speculation, but Scientology tends to oppose the oppression of the majority by the few in power (whom they call "Suppressive Persons"). These efforts by the Government have not paid off; the religious freedom provisions of the First Amendment forbid the banning of a religion, and every time they try to investigate or attack Scientology, the loyal minions attack back. For example, with demonstrations; I was at one of these.

I had planned to go to another one in a city not too far away. They were collecting money for a bus to get there, I paid them what they asked (even though it was they [the organization] who was to benefit from my presence and not I). Then they announced it had been postponed and gave me a new date. It was a date when I was unavailable (I had to go into the hospital) so I asked for my bus money back. They refused, saying they considered it a donation, pure and simple. This alone should give you some idea of the character of the organization.

I believe that David Miscavige was planted by the U.S. Government to be its leader and destroy Scientology from within. At this he is rather successful; the Church of Scientology has been shrinking every year. Unpopular policies (like disconnection) are enforced and the best parts of Scientology auditing have been quietly dropped. Those who have any disagreements with or for whom Scientology hasn't worked are told they are to blame themselves. The most capable of the management team were declared enemies and forced out (some of whom post here).

I don't think Scientology without Miscavige would have continued to grow (although it wouldn't be collapsing as fast). Scientology has ossified to the point where new ideas are not welcomed (and old ideas that don't work aren't being rejected!) Scientology is still officially anti-gay, the same way most of society was in the 1950's, and has not much liberalized its viewpoint since.

So is Scientology a religion? Most people "out there" today would say yes but very few consider it a respectable religion. The same way Mormons were considered 100 years ago.

If the Government were to ban Scientology, they would just drive it underground. The faithful would continue to meet and "do their thing" whether they would be able to call themselves a religion or not.

But how do you define a religion in the first place? A belief in God? No, that can't be it because there are a number of religions that have no God at all. My opinion is: does it try to answer the great questions, such as where did the universe come from? and where do we go when we die? Scientology does attempt to answer these.

Are Scientologists brainwashed? Most people on this board would say I am. I haven't been active in the Church for many years (being out for nearly as long as I've been in) but I believe the Xenu story literally (oh my gosh!) Most people here consider the whole thing a scam; you don't get what they said you would, no matter how many years or thousands of dollars you spend, and there is no such thing as clear or OT. Part of the reason for this is that the abilities of clears and OT's were overstated to begin with, and another part is that in Scientology you have very little opportunity to say what you would like to talk about; you are simply told what your next step is and then you start doing it. But I have accomplished things I would not have accomplished anywhere else and without Scientology would have been a much less capable individual than I am today. (But let me be quick to add that I've also had gains from ordinary psychotherapy which, according to the Church, is worthless.)

Scientology has a centralized command structure. The guy at the top (once the Commodore, now the COBFL) gets to say what goes and everyone else must follow, like it or not. There is no opportunity to weed out bad ideas. As in most governments and corporations, once they bad guys get in charge they only put their own in positions of power. Anyone interested in "doing the right thing" is shunted aside. Many good people are well respected by the rank-and-file, but those in charge of promotions only care about solidifying their own power base.

After Scientology I went into the Freezone, a name describing all those who have rejected the C of S's authority and went off to do their own thing. Within the Freezone is RONS Orgs (RO), a collection of groups following the teachings of William Branson Robertson ("Capt. Bill") who was once the Church's third-in-command. In RO, each group is independent of every other; there is a committee that meets once a year, but has no authority to impose policy. Which is a good thing for me; I got into a dispute with my local group and am not welcome there any more, but another group in another city will let me come any time I want.

Oh my! This post is a lot longer than I expected to be, but I hope I've answered some of your questions.

Helena
 
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Free Being Me

Crusader
Hi Ririn,

The U.S. Government, or at least portions of it, have been very interested in destroying Scientology. Why? This devolves into speculation, but Scientology tends to oppose the oppression of the majority by the few in power (whom they call "Suppressive Persons"). These efforts by the Government have not paid off; the religious freedom provisions of the First Amendment forbid the banning of a religion, and every time they try to investigate or attack Scientology, the loyal minions attack back. For example, with demonstrations; I was at one of these.

I had planned to go to another one in a city not too far away. They were collecting money for a bus to get there, I paid them what they asked (even though it was they [the organization] who was to benefit from my presence and not I). Then they announced it had been postponed and gave me a new date. It was a date when I was unavailable (I had to go into the hospital) so I asked for my bus money back. They refused, saying they considered it a donation, pure and simple. This alone should give you some idea of the character of the organization.

I believe that David Miscavige was planted by the U.S. Government to be its leader and destroy Scientology from within. At this he is rather successful; the Church of Scientology has been shrinking every year. Unpopular policies (like disconnection) are enforced and the best parts of Scientology auditing have been quietly dropped. Those who have any disagreements with or for whom Scientology hasn't worked are told they are to blame themselves. The most capable of the management team were declared enemies and forced out (some of whom post here).

I don't think Scientology without Miscavige would have continued to grow (although it wouldn't be collapsing as fast). Scientology has ossified to the point where new ideas are not welcomed (and old ideas that don't work aren't being rejected!) Scientology is still officially anti-gay, the same way most of society was in the 1950's, and has not much liberalized its viewpoint since.

So is Scientology a religion? Most people "out there" today would say yes but very few consider it a respectable religion. The same way Mormons were considered 100 years ago.

If the Government were to ban Scientology, they would just drive it underground. The faithful would continue to meet and "do their thing" whether they would be able to call themselves a religion or not.

But how do you define a religion in the first place? A belief in God? No, that can't be it because there are a number of religions that have no God at all. My opinion is: does it try to answer the great questions, such as where did the universe come from? and where do we go when we die? Scientology does attempt to answer these.

Are Scientologists brainwashed? Most people on this board would say I am. I haven't been active in the Church for many years (being out for nearly as long as I've been in) but I believe the Xenu story literally (oh my gosh!) Most people here consider the whole thing a scam; you don't get what they said you would, no matter how many years or thousands of dollars you spend, and there is no such thing as clear or OT. Part of the reason for this is that the abilities of clears and OT's were overstated to begin with, and another part is that in Scientology you have very little opportunity to say what you would like to talk about; to are simply told what your next step is and then you start doing it. But I have accomplished things I would not have accomplished anywhere else and without Scientology would have been a much less capable individual than I am today. (But let me be quick to add that I've also had gains from ordinary psychotherapy which, according to the Church, is worthless.)

Scientology has a centralized command structure. The guy at the top (once the Commodore, now the COBFL) gets to say what goes and everyone else must follow, like it or not. There is no opportunity to weed out bad ideas. As in most governments and corporations, once they bad guys get in charge they only put their own in positions of power. Anyone interested in "doing the right thing" is shunted aside. Many good people are well respected by the rank-and-file, but those in charge of promotions only care about solidifying their own power base.

After Scientology I went into the Freezone, a name describing all those who have rejected the C of S's authority and went off to do their own thing. Within the Freezone is RONS Orgs (RO), a collection of groups following the teachings of William Branson Robertson ("Capt. Bill") who was once the Church's third-in-command. In RO, each group is independent of every other; there is a committee that meets once a year, but has no authority to impose policy. Which is a good thing for me; I got into a dispute with my local group and am not welcome there any more, but another group in another city will let me come any time I want.

Oh my! This post is a lot longer than I expected to be, but I hope I've answered some of your questions.

Helena
The above is a classic example of $cientology's cultist indoctrination impairing a person's cognitive reasoning and critical thinking.
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Oh wow, I actually haven't seen either of those links! Thank you so much!! I'm totally going to delve into these.

This part of your quote really got to me:

"It was never designed to co-exist in a world with ubiquitous cameras and instant world wide information distribution capability available to anyone with any information about Scientology. "

That's so haunting. I think I heard that in the Documentary 'Going Clear' too. LRH knew what he was doing when he wrote about how to control information that goes in and out of scientology. It's also a bad policy that scientologists can't even research the outside world info about their religion.

I, like many other kids in the 2000s, found out about Scientology when that infamous South Park episode popped up. Before then, there were already rumors that scientology was a religion that harassed people who found out information on the church that wasn't in the church. But with information spreading like wildfire, and internet being practically a tool for everyday life for first world countries now, even their bullying can't possibly keep up.

I know that the church blocks out websites in that are anti-scientology in the church, but do they have resources to monitor what their parishioners search for in their homes? Also, do they block out movies/shows you can watch if it stars an SP? Like--do they have a list of movies/music/games you aren't encouraged to consume?

Oh! Also--do they have websites that does the opposites to 'wogs'? Like--take down information of people who they suspect might be interested in scientology by a website they were tricked into visiting? Like a self-help site?

Sorry for so many questions (I hope other people answer if you don't feel comfortable answering all of this!), and thank you so much to replying to my post! And again, thank you for the links!!!

I write "Church" with a capital "C" to underscore the fact that the IRS sanctions this. With the granting of tax exempt status in 1993, this isn't just a creature of LRH or current management, it's a creature of the US government.

Around 1978 all of us in the Sea Org were required to take a mini-course on religion consisting of one small paperback about the main world religions and a Scientology book on ceremonies. There was concern about the possibility of the draft being reinstated and they didn't want staff getting drafted so they all needed to be ordained ministers. To my recollection, we all considered it a legal and PR maneuver more than out of actual religious conviction. Unknown to us, once we were established as ordained ministers, it created an extra layer of protection for the church against violations of labor laws.

There is no god in Scientology per se. God is referred to and quickly dismissed as an abstract concept of infinity or a whole track implant and the emphasis is on individual spiritual development.

They don't need to have a 1984 style wiretap or keystroke logger to censure what Scientologists read or view - Scientologists self-censure because they know that eventually it will be revealed when they are put on an e-meter or they will be ratted out by other Scientologists with a Knowledge Report. This is an entire society that is basically screened with a lie detector like any employee of a government agency with high security clearance vetting procedures.
 

oneonewasaracecar

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hi! My name is Violet, and I am not an ex-scientologist, but have always been curious about Scientology!

I am really interested in talking about scientology with an ex-scientologist!

I'd like to talk about whether you think that if David Miscavige hadn't taken over for LRH, do you think the church would have taken off and continued to spread?
No. David Miscavige himself at one point commented on the numerous legal challenges Scientology faced and argued that all these problems would go away if the old man just died. Then he died. Between 1986 and 1996, I think David Miscavige did things that kept Scientology alive. The IRS victory was one, increasing the prices was another. If Hubbard have lived longer, Scientology could well have died already.

Most cults do not survive the death of their dear leader. Scientology was lucky that Hubbard's suspicious death occurred on the same day as the challenger disaster, so few questions were asked at the time. Miscavige was lucky that the IRS didn't hold out longer before giving them tax exempt status. They would have been bankrupt. There are a number of events like this that occurred that helped them.
Or do you think that LRH had already planted the seeds for it's top members to abuse and manipulate some of their most passionate followers?
The seeds of Dianetics and Scientology's destruction were sown around May 1950. Hubbard had no business sense at all. Everything is geared towards short term money making. The 'tone scale' for example simple ranks emotions on whether or not they have a positive impact on sales. This is why sympathy is considered 'down tone.' If you are cold calling people, being sympathetic takes time away that could be spent on sales.

The moment the internet was created, the existence of fair game and disconnection was going to help them destroy themselves.
I've read examples of LRH's texts where he'd say one thing, but then express the opposite idea in another text...so I was curious. In a lot of ex-scientologist memoirs I've read (Ron Miscavige, Jenna Miscavige, Leah Remini, etc.), almost everyone insists that the majority of Scientologists are passionate good people--but why aren't the good people ever put in charge? I find it so baffling that the good people aren't looked up to? Then again, one could say a lot of good people with good intentions could do bad things with bad information...
The part I have bolded is the correct answer.

This quote from Steven Weinberg expresses your point:

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.

I don't want to be mistaken for suggesting that Scientology is a religion, it's more of a pseudo-scienctific scam, but it does hold people's eternity over their heads, like religions do.
Also--what policies do you think the church can do without? What policies could be crossed off to improve the church and maybe weed out people like David Miscavige?
If Scientology gave up fair game and disconnection, which of course they should do, Scientology would pop like a bubble. They would open themselves up to endless litigation. They can't change and survive.

As to weeding out evil, unfortunately, evil is inherent in most of what they believe. David Miscavige really hasn't changed anything much in Scientology.
I'm wondering these things, because even if one day, say--the FBI investigate the church and redact that they're a legitimate religion,
Because of the first amendment of the constitution, they would never do this. The IRS may take away the tax exempt status, the FBI may seize their assets under the Rico Act (very unlikely IMHO), but they would never criticize them on religious grounds.
it seems like a harsh thing for people who have dedicated their whole lives to the church to leave them high and dry of a religion that they truly believed in. Some may say these people are brain washed, but it's never a good thing to rip them out from something that they're brainwashed in right? What could get them to truly take the church's policy of 'think for yourself' seriously?
When people leave the Sea Org, they leave with no money, no bank account, no job experience and often no family. It is horrible.

The reality, though, is that their lives have been dedicated to something very evil and the whole time they thought it was good. That reality is harsh. But it is reality. Many on this board have faced it.

I don't think it is good for people to suffer from delusions because it might make them feel a little better. Many disagree.
 

Ririn

New Member
Hi Ririn,

The U.S. Government, or at least portions of it, have been very interested in destroying Scientology. Why? This devolves into speculation, but Scientology tends to oppose the oppression of the majority by the few in power (whom they call "Suppressive Persons"). These efforts by the Government have not paid off; the religious freedom provisions of the First Amendment forbid the banning of a religion, and every time they try to investigate or attack Scientology, the loyal minions attack back. For example, with demonstrations; I was at one of these.

I had planned to go to another one in a city not too far away. They were collecting money for a bus to get there, I paid them what they asked (even though it was they [the organization] who was to benefit from my presence and not I). Then they announced it had been postponed and gave me a new date. It was a date when I was unavailable (I had to go into the hospital) so I asked for my bus money back. They refused, saying they considered it a donation, pure and simple. This alone should give you some idea of the character of the organization.

I believe that David Miscavige was planted by the U.S. Government to be its leader and destroy Scientology from within. At this he is rather successful; the Church of Scientology has been shrinking every year. Unpopular policies (like disconnection) are enforced and the best parts of Scientology auditing have been quietly dropped. Those who have any disagreements with or for whom Scientology hasn't worked are told they are to blame themselves. The most capable of the management team were declared enemies and forced out (some of whom post here).

I don't think Scientology without Miscavige would have continued to grow (although it wouldn't be collapsing as fast). Scientology has ossified to the point where new ideas are not welcomed (and old ideas that don't work aren't being rejected!) Scientology is still officially anti-gay, the same way most of society was in the 1950's, and has not much liberalized its viewpoint since.

So is Scientology a religion? Most people "out there" today would say yes but very few consider it a respectable religion. The same way Mormons were considered 100 years ago.

If the Government were to ban Scientology, they would just drive it underground. The faithful would continue to meet and "do their thing" whether they would be able to call themselves a religion or not.

But how do you define a religion in the first place? A belief in God? No, that can't be it because there are a number of religions that have no God at all. My opinion is: does it try to answer the great questions, such as where did the universe come from? and where do we go when we die? Scientology does attempt to answer these.

Are Scientologists brainwashed? Most people on this board would say I am. I haven't been active in the Church for many years (being out for nearly as long as I've been in) but I believe the Xenu story literally (oh my gosh!) Most people here consider the whole thing a scam; you don't get what they said you would, no matter how many years or thousands of dollars you spend, and there is no such thing as clear or OT. Part of the reason for this is that the abilities of clears and OT's were overstated to begin with, and another part is that in Scientology you have very little opportunity to say what you would like to talk about; to are simply told what your next step is and then you start doing it. But I have accomplished things I would not have accomplished anywhere else and without Scientology would have been a much less capable individual than I am today. (But let me be quick to add that I've also had gains from ordinary psychotherapy which, according to the Church, is worthless.)

Scientology has a centralized command structure. The guy at the top (once the Commodore, now the COBFL) gets to say what goes and everyone else must follow, like it or not. There is no opportunity to weed out bad ideas. As in most governments and corporations, once they bad guys get in charge they only put their own in positions of power. Anyone interested in "doing the right thing" is shunted aside. Many good people are well respected by the rank-and-file, but those in charge of promotions only care about solidifying their own power base.

After Scientology I went into the Freezone, a name describing all those who have rejected the C of S's authority and went off to do their own thing. Within the Freezone is RONS Orgs (RO), a collection of groups following the teachings of William Branson Robertson ("Capt. Bill") who was once the Church's third-in-command. In RO, each group is independent of every other; there is a committee that meets once a year, but has no authority to impose policy. Which is a good thing for me; I got into a dispute with my local group and am not welcome there any more, but another group in another city will let me come any time I want.

Oh my! This post is a lot longer than I expected to be, but I hope I've answered some of your questions.

Helena

Hmmm...I never felt like the government was hell-bent on 'destroying' Scientology. I feel like that is a common feeling toward organizations that cultivate an 'us versus them' type mentality. I think LRH actually started that thinking when he declared that war against the IRS. In fact, I've read somewhere that the government didn't recognize that it was a church because it wasn't disclosing enough information--something we've discussed on this forum as one of the core values that ultimately destroys Scientology's validity.

But let's say--David Miscavige was a plant. How would that benefit the government? Under his rule, the church became tax-exempt didn't it? And after that--he sort of escalated and it seems like he is using the church as his personal piggy bank. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but under his new rule--Scientology bought off way more land than they have followers for. And that land--because of their new tax-exempt status, makes no money for the government.

It's interesting that you brought up Mormonism, because they are actually an example of a church that one can say is adapting and expelling some of the things that the government and many other potential followers looked down upon. Their policy on African Americans, and polygamy being some of their big changes. But those who wanted to keep polygamy going and some of the old core values of Mormonism (say, the Church of Latter Day Saints of Warren Jeffs) have twisted it into something that one can say mirrors the way David Miscavige is running Scientology to the ground. My first question was how would one think that could be changed? Just as a fun question to ponder I guess--but just with the few replys I've gotten, I can see that there would be too many things to redact to even keep Scientology afloat now-- it would barely be recognizable as Scientology.

But it sounds like you also agree that Scientology wouldn't have gotten far even if David Miscavige wasn't around! You make a good point about their backwards belief on sex and homosexuality.

Sounds like you benefited from the e-meter 'therapy' sessions, and you even mentioned regular therapy also helped you, so I hope you continue to do what makes you happy. I hope the regular therapy sessions are a bit cheaper?

But what an interesting person you are! I had fun thinking and pondering on your reply! Thank you for taking the time to chat!
 

Ririn

New Member
I write "Church" with a capital "C" to underscore the fact that the IRS sanctions this. With the granting of tax exempt status in 1993, this isn't just a creature of LRH or current management, it's a creature of the US government.

Around 1978 all of us in the Sea Org were required to take a mini-course on religion consisting of one small paperback about the main world religions and a Scientology book on ceremonies. There was concern about the possibility of the draft being reinstated and they didn't want staff getting drafted so they all needed to be ordained ministers. To my recollection, we all considered it a legal and PR maneuver more than out of actual religious conviction. Unknown to us, once we were established as ordained ministers, it created an extra layer of protection for the church against violations of labor laws.

There is no god in Scientology per se. God is referred to and quickly dismissed as an abstract concept of infinity or a whole track implant and the emphasis is on individual spiritual development.

They don't need to have a 1984 style wiretap or keystroke logger to censure what Scientologists read or view - Scientologists self-censure because they know that eventually it will be revealed when they are put on an e-meter or they will be ratted out by other Scientologists with a Knowledge Report. This is an entire society that is basically screened with a lie detector like any employee of a government agency with high security clearance vetting procedures.

Thank you so much for replying--I am learning so much over the very short amount of time I've gone on this forum. I'll call it a Church following your example--especially since I'm from the States. In France, for example--the Church of Scientology doesn't have 'religion' status, and is actually deemed a cult I believe? I think that's where a lot of my confusion on the matter started.

I always assumed that LRH had always planned for Scientology to hold the 'religion' title, according to that documentary 'Going Clear'. They did a whole section on LRH before they delved into what the Church is today. A loose quote I remember LRH saying was along the lines of 'If you want to make money, make a religion.' and that just sort of prefaced the documentary as being anti-Church of Scientology. I never thought it was also a good PR move, so that's pretty eye-opening too.

I don't think believing in a divine God/Gods was what defined religion, even back then right? Just the fact that they believed that they were spiritual beings that was ultimately what granted them an official religion?
 

Ririn

New Member
Yes you did all by your lonesome by quod erat demonstrandum (Q.E.D.) of wacky conspiracy theories with "SP's" and "government plants" and other $cio nonsense straight out of Elcon's paranoid drug fueled loopy journal 67. :blink: Standard Elcon bullshit.

Before I forget, :welcome2: Ririn.

Thank you!

I actually LOVE conspiracy theories! I'm sure the original poster (OP) knew I was just asking for a bunch of hypothetical questions. So I kinda loved getting that reply--cause it was just riddled with 'what ifs'. I'm having fun on this forum! So thank you guys~!
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
.

Ririn, you say you are "super curious" about Scientology.

Is your curiosity sufficient that one day you may want to try it?
 

Ririn

New Member
.

Ririn, you say you are "super curious" about Scientology.

Is your curiosity sufficient that one day you may want to try it?

Hahaha, nooo. Although, I think I should explain that before I am curious of things that I previously had a weird fear over. Like--I love hearing ghost stories, but I'm very terrified of them. Does that make sense? I hope that wasn't rude, but hearing accounts of former scientologists really scared me of even going near my city's scientology building.

I also don't understand the science behind the e-meter. So no thanksss
 
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