Not an ex-scientologist, but...

[svonhatten]

Krysti,

Hi again.

Another thought I have on the CofS/Scn/anti psych thing is this:

Scn teaches that anything is fixable, psyche/spirit-wise.

They also have all sorts of things like drug rundowns, sweat programs (aka "the Purification Rundown" or "purif" for short)

So why should they worry about who's done psych stuff?

Should not be a problem. It's in the past.

What it is, I think, is that it's also mixed with an intel/security type concern. People who've done psychiatric services (and some other things, too) are considered a security risk because the organization is (and Hubbard was) incredibly paranoid.

They really are very intel-centered. To the point where it's exaggerated and risible.

David Miscavige, current head of CofS, vowed to eradicate psychiatry itself. So when CofS members tell you that their only concern is with "psychiatric abuses" you can counter with that. If that was their only concern, the head of CofS wouldn't be vowing to eradicate all of psychiatry.

And another thing- since not everyone's eligible for auditing (if they're on meds, had "extensive psychiatric treatmt" or institutionalization) then, if they were to eradicate psychiatry (fat chance!) then where the heck will those people GO when they need help?

These are a couple of my pet peeves re Scn and its anti psychiatry stance.

A simpler understanding is "psychiatry=human rights abuse"

While I don't completely agree with this, they do do a lot to help those who had enormous amounts of abusive power by psychiatrists. Taking a mother's kids away because they couldn't think (due to 3 different drugs, each to counteract one side-effect or another) isn't what I call "ethical." Not to mention electroshock treatment.

I think Miscavage was a little extreme in his statements though... but can you blame him?

-Steve

 

[Mick Wenlock]

A simpler understanding is "psychiatry=human rights abuse"

It may be simpler but it is still bogus.

While I don't completely agree with this, they do do a lot to help those who had enormous amounts of abusive power by psychiatrists. Taking a mother's kids away because they couldn't think (due to 3 different drugs, each to counteract one side-effect or another) isn't what I call "ethical." Not to mention electroshock treatment.

Why not mention electroshock treatment? The CofS and CCHR would actually be honest and helpful were it not for the fact that the campaign against psychiatry is not being done to help psychiatric patients, it is done merely to try and make the CofS look less bad than it is.

The CofS offers no hope to anyone who is battling mental illness - Scientology's ONLY contribution to the mental health field has been to create mentally ill people and then fob them off on society to handle (well the ones that they did not just let die of course).

CCHR and Scientology do something far more grotesque than psychiatric blunders - they seek to exploit the victims - and then abandon them.

Bear that in mind. CCHR is not about to help anyone - how can it when Scientology has no answers for the mentally ill? All CCHR is there to do is to take a victim and exploit him or her.

That may make you think that they are being 'noble' - they are not. They are being manipulative scum.

I think Miscavage was a little extreme in his statements though... but can you blame him?

-Steve

Blame him for what? Taking people who have mental illness and who have failed in their psychiatric treatment and exploiting them?

Yes I can blame him - no problem.

The surprising thing is that you seem to be under the misapprehension that Miscavige and the rest actually give a rats ass about the mentally ill.

 

[Dulloldfart]

I never really looked at it like that before, Mick.

I think you have a very good point.

Paul

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Yes, I can blame Miscavige.

Psychiatry does not equal human rights abuse.

The percentage of wrongdoing by psychiatrists is very likely not less than the percentage of wrongdoing by Scientologists, even those in the tech divisiion.

Yes, some stuff happens with/in psychiatric and psychology based therapies and treatment. But it's in the minority.

Many states have laws making it very difficult to pronounce someone incapable or incompetent.

CofS is very intel driven. They run ops constantly. I was told by an IAS staff member that once psychiatry was eradicated, people wouldn't be illegal pcs anymore (those who are deemed such) because it would be like when EST went away (which CofS takes credit for- WRONGLY)- all those former illegal pcs who'd done EST are now no longer illegal pcs.

It's intel and security.

It becomes a PTS A-J thing. Those people are security risks who could turn on CofS at any time. Though I do understand that you wouldn't want a loose cannon running around who could cause problems for the organization, I will also point out that the vast majority of problems caused for CofS are caused BY their staff and management.

Tech-wise, the illegal pc thing should be simple. The guy might be impaired by the previous drugs or ect or whatever. So the idea is that every now and again a petition for auditing would be approved and how well he did on that would affect the outcome of future petitions. There's even a PL from LRH saying to even approve petitions of people who've had ECT once in a while and not deny so many petitions.

However, under Miscavige's regime, there are far less petitions approved than ever before.

It's flat out stupid to say they will eradicate Psychiatry.

Here're my thoughts as to why:

* CofS has a TERRIBLE track record human rights wise. I'd rather be fucked up the ass with a red hot poker than ever be put in an isolation watch at Flag and let those bozos be in charge of me.

* CofS is puny compared to psychiatry, et al.

* CofS has shown time and time again that they DON'T want auditing to take place. DM's management makes excuses to deny auditing to people. If you want to go to Flag, the DSA has to ok it. If you want to do OTVII, you have to be a Patron which is now 50k instead of 40k- this on top of the cost for the level. (very high). If your certs aren't GAT, they should be redone. People being told they aren't clear after all- who had attested years before. Sr tech personnel at AOLA being demoted to folder page, bus driver, etc.

So what the hell are they going to do with all those former psych patients?

* CofS is being disingenous when they say they are worried about the abuses. They want the whole thing to go away- all the psychology, all the talk therapies. Why? It's a monopoly thing.

 

[Krysti]

It may be simpler but it is still bogus.



Why not mention electroshock treatment? The CofS and CCHR would actually be honest and helpful were it not for the fact that the campaign against psychiatry is not being done to help psychiatric patients, it is done merely to try and make the CofS look less bad than it is.

The CofS offers no hope to anyone who is battling mental illness - Scientology's ONLY contribution to the mental health field has been to create mentally ill people and then fob them off on society to handle (well the ones that they did not just let die of course).

CCHR and Scientology do something far more grotesque than psychiatric blunders - they seek to exploit the victims - and then abandon them.

Bear that in mind. CCHR is not about to help anyone - how can it when Scientology has no answers for the mentally ill? All CCHR is there to do is to take a victim and exploit him or her.

That may make you think that they are being 'noble' - they are not. They are being manipulative scum.



Blame him for what? Taking people who have mental illness and who have failed in their psychiatric treatment and exploiting them?

Yes I can blame him - no problem.

The surprising thing is that you seem to be under the misapprehension that Miscavige and the rest actually give a rats ass about the mentally ill.

Very well stated, Mike. I completely agree with everything you said. I was going to respond to Steve myself, but now I don't need to!

 

[Tanstaafl]

I don't think CCHR is there to make CoS look less bad than it is.

It could be that a psych was LRH's oppterm.

More likely, it is a mechanism to get Scns to more closely identify themselves as such by identifying what they are opposed to. Without psychs mocked-up as opponents then Scn isn't really a game - it's not much fun (to me anyway) to mock-up your case as an opponent.

In Britain, some football fans spend more time saying how much they hate a rival team than how much they love their own team. They define themselves more by what they oppose than what they support. A common enemy helps consolidate a third dynamic, which is ironic as Int Mmt loves to use the term "Nazi" on its "enemies", and they had it down to a fine art.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I truly and honestly believe that the CCHR is there to eradicate Psychiatry and Psychology. For one thing, that is DM's officially stated goal re those fields/sciences.

 

[haiqu]

I truly and honestly believe that the CCHR is there to eradicate Psychiatry and Psychology. For one thing, that is DM's officially stated goal re those fields/sciences.

I remember years ago having a psychiatrist approach me to ask if all Scientologists were anti-psychiatry. My answer was that LRH had stated in one of his tapes that he had chosen psychiatry arbitrarily as an opponent, in order to have a game. He said, "Oh, that's all right then ..." and looked quite relieved.

He then asked me about my own viewpoint, and I said that apart from personal disapproval of the extreme types of "therapy" such as ECT and heavy drugs, I didn't think about psychiatry much at all. I also mentioned that I had found the few psychiatrists I had met as a bit weird, but no more than some other professions I'd had contact with over the years.

In all, we communicated quite fine and he seemed genuinely interested in my viewpoint.

As for psychologists, well they're a fact of life everywhere you go now, even for a job interview. Better get used to them.

haiqu

 

[svonhatten]

I truly and honestly believe that the CCHR is there to eradicate Psychiatry and Psychology. For one thing, that is DM's officially stated goal re those fields/sciences.

I TA'd for a psychology class in high school. The teacher and I didn't get along when it came to psychiatry. I tried to stay off the subject when I could, but he seemed to act pretty ignorant when I pulled out the "more people have died in institutions..." argument.

I still think, for the most part, psychiatry has (to some degree) a certain amount of fraud, but at least they aren't out to get you all the time.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I don't have any problem with psychology or psychiatry or those doctors and other practitioners in those fields, at all.

I don't think those are perfect sciences and I know there can be abuses, but hey- look at the abuses right there in CofS! Not like current administration can or should point fingers, nor could LRH, for that matter.

I wouldn't take psychiatric meds, myself, I don't think, but I do feel that some people need them and that they can be beneficial.

One thing that I found silly-- when I was in CofS, I heard a young woman who'd just graduated high school talking with an older family friend who'd evidently not seen her in some time and the older lady was talking to her about her plans for the future. The younger woman said she did not want to go to college and one of the reasons was that psychology classes are often required for some majors.

I thought: "how silly". Because I was in college, too, and took psych courses, while a Scn'ist. I just decided I'd do the coursework and shut up. Not like I had to agree with everything.

It's called "getting along in the real world".

I always tried to.

 

[Krysti]

I remember years ago having a psychiatrist approach me to ask if all Scientologists were anti-psychiatry. My answer was that LRH had stated in one of his tapes that he had chosen psychiatry arbitrarily as an opponent, in order to have a game. He said, "Oh, that's all right then ..." and looked quite relieved.

He then asked me about my own viewpoint, and I said that apart from personal disapproval of the extreme types of "therapy" such as ECT and heavy drugs, I didn't think about psychiatry much at all. I also mentioned that I had found the few psychiatrists I had met as a bit weird, but no more than some other professions I'd had contact with over the years.

In all, we communicated quite fine and he seemed genuinely interested in my viewpoint.

As for psychologists, well they're a fact of life everywhere you go now, even for a job interview. Better get used to them.

haiqu

What do you consider heavy drugs? I used to think Lithium was a 'heavy drug', but now being on medication that is similar to Lithium, I don't think it is a heavy drug at all. Medications like this, unlike what most people think, do not drug you up like narcotics do. They do not give you a 'high' feeling or a 'relaxed' feeling. It could give you a 'flat' feeling, like you have no personality. That's why people who have a mental illness need to find what works for them.

As for medication, like Xanax or Valium, that does give a 'narcotic' feeling, they serve their purpose for people who desperately need them temporarily. But, they should only be prescribed temporarily if possible. It's funny to me that people blame the psychiatric industry for over-prescribing meds like this. In my experience, most of the time it's general practicioners who do it.

 

[Alanzo]

What do you consider heavy drugs? I used to think Lithium was a 'heavy drug', but now being on medication that is similar to Lithium, I don't think it is a heavy drug at all. Medications like this, unlike what most people think, do not drug you up like narcotics do. They do not give you a 'high' feeling or a 'relaxed' feeling. It could give you a 'flat' feeling, like you have no personality. That's why people who have a mental illness need to find what works for them.

As for medication, like Xanax or Valium, that does give a 'narcotic' feeling, they serve their purpose for people who desperately need them temporarily. But, they should only be prescribed temporarily if possible. It's funny to me that people blame the psychiatric industry for over-prescribing meds like this. In my experience, most of the time it's general practicioners who do it.

This is very good information for people on this board, Krysti.

L Ron Hubbard told Scientologists a lot of lies about psychiatry, and the current management uses Psychiatry like Hitler used the Jews to scare people in the 1920's, 30's, and 40's in Germany.

You could fulfill a very important role on this board if you could clean up the misinformation Hubbard gave Scientologists about "the psychs".

 

[Krysti]

*snipped* I wouldn't take psychiatric meds, myself, I don't think, but I do feel that some people need them and that they can be beneficial. *snipped*

Hi Fluffy,

I didn't think I'd ever take psychiatric meds either. Even when I was having panic attacks all throughout the day, I would not take anything for it. I suffered for five years and still wouldn't take meds for it. I thought it was a mind over matter thing. In fact, I was convinced! One day I'd make my mind get over the matter!

Over the course of the five years, not only was I having panic attacks, I started having other symptoms. I was having major mood swings. When I say major, I mean major! I mean I was so 'up', I would literally jump up and down because I was sooo happy (for absolutely no reason). Then, I would be sooo down, I couldn't even talk to anyone (again, for absolutely no reason). Nothing had changed in my life to cause these extreme mood changes (sometimes happening within a day or even hours of each other).

I had good friends suggest I may be bipolar. I thought there was no way I could be. I never even knew anyone who had a mental illness. Bipolar meant you were crazy, I was not crazy!

Then... I became sooo 'up' one day, I became delusional. Luckily, I had a cognisant moment where I realized I had become delusional. I knew then I needed help. I was scared to death of going on 'heavy drugs'. OMG, I might have to take L-I-T-H-I-U-M!! That's a crazy person's drug. I am not crazy! I'll tell you what, I am so thankful I decided to try meds. After I went on them, for once, in five long years, I did not have any anxiety for a whole day. It was amazing. It didn't 'instantly' resolve my mood swings right away though, I had to go through different meds to figure out what worked for me there.

People (not you specifically, in general) think "I would never take psychiatric drugs!". Of course you wouldn't! Unless, you really really needed them. Even then, a lot of people don't. Those are the people I really feel bad for. I am so grateful for my 'psychotic episode' because it forced me into it and I finally feel 'normal' again. I've lived with normal moods for the last five years because of psychiatric medication.

However, if someone comes up with a different solution? I'd be off meds so fast, it'd make your head spin!

Krysti

 

[Krysti]

This is very good information for people on this board, Krysti.

L Ron Hubbard told Scientologists a lot of lies about psychiatry, and the current management uses Psychiatry like Hitler used the Jews to scare people in the 1920's, 30's, and 40's in Germany.

You could fulfill a very important role on this board if you could clean up the misinformation Hubbard gave Scientologists about "the psychs".

Thanks, Alanzo. I do have a purpose here, I do, I do!

You know, I was just thinking... If psychiatrists are so evil and are just out to make money on prescribing harmful drugs, why would a psychiatrist ever go on those evil drugs? Google Kay Jameson, a psychiatrist who became afflicted with bipolar disorder.

 

[MarkWI]

I remember years ago having a psychiatrist approach me to ask if all Scientologists were anti-psychiatry. My answer was that LRH had stated in one of his tapes that he had chosen psychiatry arbitrarily as an opponent, in order to have a game. [...]

This is interesting. Does anybody know what tape?
Thank you
M

 

[Vinaire]

This is interesting. Does anybody know what tape?
Thank you
M

From PDC Tape # 1:

"Now, I’m not asking you to look at this subject through my eyes. There are two subjects here that I’m going to be talking to you about. Just two. And one is “Scientology, a precise science of universes and beings therein or beings who make universes”—that’s one subject. And then there’s “Hubbard’s opinion of this subject.” And boy, I got some wild opinions. You ought to hear them sometime. But that’s a different thing—that’s a different thing. And you can tell very easily when I swing over into my opinion. When I start talking about some field of healing or when I start to talk about this or that, that’s obviously a big slant and merely is my selection of randomity, take it as amusing or evaluate by it or throw it away or anything. It hasn’t anything really to do with Scientology. But the subject itself is actually a lot cleaner than a wolf’s tooth. I’ve examined a lot of wolves’ teeth and I’ve found out they’re not too clean. And—this subject is very clean, though."

.

 

[Terril park]

This is interesting. Does anybody know what tape?
Thank you
M

I heard something similar in an early PDC tape. Sorry can't recall which one.
I believe if someone has a transcript in adobe you can seach the transcripts.

 

[Terril park]

Hi Fluffy,

However, if someone comes up with a different solution? I'd be off meds so fast, it'd make your head spin!

Krysti

You may find scientology outside the COS might work. You would't neccessarily have to come of all your meds at once, and what you handle whilst still taking meds can be checked again once off them.

I have a bi-polar friend who had a psychotic break whilst studying scientology.
We were on COS staff to-gether in fact. He's been on meds for around 15 years. He occasionally relapses and gets taken to a high security psychiatric wing. Not sure if its bacause he stops taking his meds. He certainly can't get any help from the COS who refuse to handle him or anyone with far less problems.

Exactly what they plan to do when they " eliminate psychaitry" has never been mentioned as far as I know. A typical COS hypocritical stance.

 

[Krysti]

You may find scientology outside the COS might work. You would't neccessarily have to come of all your meds at once, and what you handle whilst still taking meds can be checked again once off them.

I have a bi-polar friend who had a psychotic break whilst studying scientology.
We were on COS staff to-gether in fact. He's been on meds for around 15 years. He occasionally relapses and gets taken to a high security psychiatric wing. Not sure if its bacause he stops taking his meds. He certainly can't get any help from the COS who refuse to handle him or anyone with far less problems.

Exactly what they plan to do when they " eliminate psychaitry" has never been mentioned as far as I know. A typical COS hypocritical stance.

That's the most amazing part of it all... Supposedly, scientology is supposed to be 'the end all' to mental illness. Yet, you can't join if you're already mentally ill. Then some active scientologists have explained that away with
pretty much saying it prevents mental illness in the first place. Which is obviously not true, because people in the CofS do become mentally ill. Supposedly, the last piece Hubbard figured out was the Introspection Rundown so there was no need for psychiatry anymore. I think we all know how well the IR works.

I've asked current scientologists about this fact and they say their case wasn't handled right or they were out ethics or whatever. Okay... There is obviously an excuse for everything that goes wrong, but it's never that Hubbard was wrong in any way. No, couldn't be that. Indoc, I know.

In fact, when Hubbard has been proven wrong, like with the 'cancer is caused by not smoking enough', active scientologists say he is human, of course he made mistakes. Wouldn't that lead a rational person to then believe he was wrong about, at the very least, some of his tech?

 

[Tanstaafl]

That's the most amazing part of it all... Supposedly, scientology is supposed to be 'the end all' to mental illness. Yet, you can't join if you're already mentally ill. Then some active scientologists have explained that away with
pretty much saying it prevents mental illness in the first place. Which is obviously not true, because people in the CofS do become mentally ill. Supposedly, the last piece Hubbard figured out was the Introspection Rundown so there was no need for psychiatry anymore. I think we all know how well the IR works.

I've asked current scientologists about this fact and they say their case wasn't handled right or they were out ethics or whatever. Okay... There is obviously an excuse for everything that goes wrong, but it's never that Hubbard was wrong in any way. No, couldn't be that. Indoc, I know.

In fact, when Hubbard has been proven wrong, like with the 'cancer is caused by not smoking enough', active scientologists say he is human, of course he made mistakes. Wouldn't that lead a rational person to then believe he was wrong about, at the very least, some of his tech?

Krysti, you seem to be getting a handle on the subject quite quickly.