Not an ex-Scientologist Message Board

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
Ooooh, I'm probably going to get in trouble for this, but here it goes: :nailbiting:


Someone just posted in one of the threads here:

"I think there's a variety of exes and critics who have different takes on things. We mention our stances, whether those be that the person's now an indie, or that they think it's all crap or that maybe they liked some of it- in interests of candor with our contributors.

That, and freedom of speech and choice is really all there is to that."



My feeling is: not quite. I still wonder what it means to be an ex-Scientologist as defined by this site, and I have yet to get a real answer. When you think about it, maybe there needs to be a new site created for the kind of dialogue this person is talking about in the quote, where these groups (Critics, Scientologists, Ex-Scientologists, Independents) can all come together and argue it out.

I've learned a lot from the posts I've read here, and this site is an incredible resource. And don't get me wrong, I love a good argument. But the way I've been challenged since arriving, I've come to the conclusion, on a certain level, this isn't an ex-Scientology message board at all. It might have started out that way, but it was and continues to be hijacked and derailed by certain people. The pro-Scientology faction makes themselves very felt and they dominate many threads. And I'm not talking about bullshit posts about Tom Cruise - who I couldn't give a fly's anus about. I'm talking about the crucial aspects of breaking down the harm, the grief, the PTSD of Scientology. My feeling is if you really see "two sides" to that, you don't belong here.

(Someone is probably thinking, who the hell does this guy think he is saying this, how long has he been here? But if you're thinking that, you're exactly the person whom I'm talking to.)

What this is, in my humble opinion, is a site on the Subject of Scientology with an emphasis on people who have left the church. Again, that may cheeky for me to say as a newcomer, but maybe it takes a newcomer to say it. Because a true ex-Scientology site would never tolerate consistent pro-Scientology posts, or responses to people who are critical of the church: "Get some freaking facts." "Some of us got major wins..." or "Yes, Lisa McPherson died but medical malpractice happens all the time." I'm not making this up, these are responses/attitudes (paraphrased) I've seen here since I arrived, and I've been like, WTF? Exactly where am I?

I've contributed to the merry go round conversations that go on and on and on where we all find ourselves caught in the matrix, unable to escape. But what I find fascinating is that if you take Scientology out of the equation and you make this instead a forum for survivors of sexual assault and rape (and I don't use this example lightly because for those ex-Scientologists who were in the Sea Org, or RPF'd, the trauma and PTSD may be just as profound), it would be unfathomable as survivors on one part of the site were talking about their personal rape experience, others were saying, "Well, sometimes if you do go out late at night and you're by yourself...", "rape statistics are down lately...." "There are some experiences where people come onto you and still say no..then what do you do?" "See both sides..." etc, etc, etc...

Thank God for posters like Smilla and I Told You I Was Trouble and many others who are kind to everyone but clear and focused about their intention and what is at stake in this battle against the church and there is a battle going on. And people don't need their efforts enervated by exhausting, random, get-you-feet-caught-up-in-the-jump-rope-trip-and-break-your-neck-I'm-not-a-Scientologist-anymore-as-I-defend-the-tech-to-the-death posts.

I'm not trying to personally attack anyone. I just think it's shitty that there is so much oil in the water, as people try to get themselves clean from Scientology's mind control and it's my observation that some people deliberately continue Scientology's process of mystification here, for whatever reason. I experienced it and almost left and I'm not the only one. It reminds me of those pictures of the BP oil spill and the seagulls and wildlife that were covered in grime. This is a very hard place at times to "get clean" when people keep reminding you how "wonderful the tech is" and keep asking you to "see both sides." For the person who haunts the site but doesn't share, who is on the fence about leaving the church and reads the apologies for LRH and his tech, sometimes this presence feels especially sinister.

So yes, free will, yes, freedom of speech, always, but isn't there a question of where that speech takes place and why?

XB
 

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Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
http://www.forum.exscn.net/faq.php?faq=esmbfaq

Why was the board created?This board was created to fill a void. There needed to be a place where people can gather to discuss their experiences with Scientology in a moderated environment.


Who can post here?[/QUOTE
Anyone is free to post here whether you have been in scientology or not. It was first thought that the board should be limited to only those with a history in Scientology. But when considered more closely, it was realised that if you limit membership to only exes, you are shutting yourself off from a wealth if information from other areas.

Many people who were never scientologists run excellent web sites, have been involved in litigation against the church, are experts in mind control or were members of different religious groups that treat it members similarly. The list goes on and on. Sometimes only a person who was never involved can see things with a clarity that an ex member cannot.

 

Anonycat

Crusader
Ooooh, I'm probably going to get in trouble for this, but here it goes: :nailbiting:

XB

These matters have come up, and sometimes have had attempts to reduce the annoyance/PITA factor. It seems like people are familiar with the rules, and they also know that they may be challenged by those with opposing information or experiences. I like it, and people tend to acknowledge that some respect of community and the forum are crucial. Right? Why hang around and bicker with people who believe the opposite of you? It happens on occasion but since personal wars are not respected or allowed in cases, it goes away fairly quickly.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
I think we have accept the fact that some people come here just to 'handle' us. One person admitted such openly before rage-quitting. Mike Hobson, that was. It's very obvious, but no doubt they feel pretty clever. Lol.

Excuse the re-post, but I think it's relevant to your topic.

"Current Freezone PR Nonsense:

1. Arriving 2 or 3 at a time on any thread critical of the Freezone, blustering and protesting with huge simulated moral indignance, injecting enough commotion into the mix to kill the thread. It's exactly the same fake moral outrage thing that the Cof$ uses, and is deliberate and calculated insincerity.

2. Asserting that anything about Scientology which is contentious - Such as the States of Clear and OT, or the Xenu rubbish, is Metaphor, not be taken literally. This is fundamental dishonesty, as Clear, OT, and the Xenu rubbish have always been presented as fact, and still are. The Freezone sells a Bridge just like the Cof$, but an even longer and more bizarre one in the Case of Ron's Orgs.

3. Whenever any criticism is made of the Freezone that contains an accusation of abuse - brainwashing etc, the reply goes: "Tell that to the Catholics, Jews, Muslims" etc. Don't look at us - look over there. Look over there. Look over there. Look over there.

4. Critics of Scientology are insane toxic ****heads - don't listen to them - they're nuts.

5. Trying to 'handle' people who have serious, well-justified concerns about Scientology itself, rather than the behaviour of any particular group.

6. When all else fails, posting nonsensical or deliberately stupid material just to frustrate and annoy people
."

QED.


 

Anonycat

Crusader
4. Critics of Scientology are insane toxic ****heads - don't listen to them - they're nuts.

Ron said anyone who opposes scientology is a criminal. Also, why would anyone want to suppress the only hope for mankind? Will that be cash or credit card?

Ron gives the scientologists good news: the worse off someone is, the more willing they'll be to pay up!

http://www.mediafire.com/?pc36xr5cy6j0xyn
(sound bite)
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
I posted this a while ago, but for some reason nobody took it seriously :unsure:

"After the widespread outrage at the appalling behavior *most* people have shown here in having the bare-faced cheek and naked brutality to disagree with someone without having the common decency, and rudimentary intelligence necessary to present the relevant technical issues, or checking their data on the e-meter prior to adopting an opinion, we feel that now is the time for change. In future, - should you be deemed worthy of posting privileges, please announce your intention to disagree in advance, so that the intended recipient can don protective clothing, turn off their computer, or prepare a clever rebuttal in advance of your ill conceived and ignorant comment.


We all know by now that Scientology is a controversial subject, and so it would be sensible never to discuss it. We also know that Scientology is an exact science, that no wog or ex-scientologist could ever understand, let alone have an opinion on.


It is with grave regret that we must inform you that from now on no posts on the subject of Scientology will be permitted. The name of the board will also be changed to the Appropriately Chastened Wogs and Toxic **** heads With Evil Purposes Board.


To facilitate these changes on a workable gradient, for the near future we will be limiting posting privileges to Claire Swazey, Mark A Baker and Dr Terril Park. Other users may browse threads, and every post you read will automatically be thanked and liked.


Other ringleaders - and you know who you are, will be invited to a nice holiday breaking rocks in a healthy outdoor environment.


If and when you wish to apply for posting privileges, you will be required to submit a mock thread on the subject of kittens, nice sunsets you have seen, or your favorite fabric pattern.


To ensure a smooth and painless transition period, we have taken the precaution of imprisoning Mick, Ethercat, and Emma, in an electronic mountain prison on a small asteroid in the Oort Cloud. I'm sure that you will understand that this is truly the greatest good for the greatest number of people with far far more intelligence than you.


Thank you for your support at this difficult time.


You have been logged out.


Now move away from your computer, and keep your hands where we can see them."

I have no idea why this was never implemented :confused2:
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
Ooooh... <snip>

Welcome the ridiculous realm of Rons [STRIKE]tech[/STRIKE] robotocisms being applied by hubbardites. It only works when you allow yourself to become frustrated, hubbardites called it enturbulation and for some reason they splurge on it as a demonstration of 'wins.' Shallow repetitive stuff really.
 

Reasonable

Silver Meritorious Patron
I do not think that people on message boards convince anyone of anything. We are really here to write. I think there is therapy in writing.

So I know that when I write something on this board I am being heard. I don't think that I am changing anyone's mind with my posts.

There is a button for "Agree" and "Disagree" there is not button for "You changed my mind with your post" because no one would check it.

And yes sometimes people argue, then I write back and when I do so I think more about the subject and I write more and in that way I get relief.

We all have different levels of thinking about our experience in the cult and some were worse than others.

You liken this to a rape survivors board and I think really it is much different, much more complex. For me I got some good and bad from Scientology. I think the bad outweighs the good but I am here to talk about my entire experience.

If your experience was 100% bad then you should write about that. But when you communicate to a group you really have no right to say how they should respond.

My experience was not all bad but I deserve to write about my experience as much as you deserve to write about yours.

Also remember this: When I write something I have a certain thought or intention that I think is expressed through my post. However when someone else reads it they think I meant something else. Then we argue. I think there is a lot of mis-duplication on message boards and communication in general.

But my main point is that most of the therapy is in the writing (at least for me) and also in the reading posts of people who agree with me. :shrug:
 

Anonycat

Crusader
I think you're trying too hard to boil it down. It's organic and wild, can be therapeutic, lurkers can and have had their minds changed, and minor miracles which we don't discuss openly as they are ESMB trade secrets. :wink2:
 
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Petey C

Silver Meritorious Patron
Xenu's Boyfriend, you have some good points. Yes, you're relatively new, and therefore you've probably not seen enough cycles in the exchanges on the Board. We have good (interesting, volatile) months and bad (boring, indie-ful) months. I agree that over the last little time there seem to be more and more indies/freezoners around who want to argue Scientology's good points. I get tired of reading them too. You can use the blocking facility in ESMB if you like; I don't because I like to see who's posting (though I don't read posts from people whose POV I already know I disagree with on the subject of Scientology).

But consider this. It's friction that makes the pearl. Sometimes it takes a poster who's somewhat pro-scientology (as opposed to CoS) to get me to the point where I can clarify what my objection to scientology is. While I generally exist in a wash of general irritation with, contempt of and opposition to the whole of scientology and Hubbard, sometimes a specific pro-scn comment or viewpoint (or a milder acceptance of something) will stimulate me to think a bit harder and articulate my opposition or disagreement a bit more clearly. For me, it's all good as it adds to my general store of specific disagreements and objections.

You've been a breath of fresh air for tired old folks like me on the Board. So keep ranting and airing your opposition; you never know when one of your ideas will actually set off a chain reaction in someone else.
 

exsomessenger

Patron Meritorious
Ooooh, I'm probably going to get in trouble for this, but here it goes: :nailbiting:


Someone just posted in one of the threads here:

"I think there's a variety of exes and critics who have different takes on things. We mention our stances, whether those be that the person's now an indie, or that they think it's all crap or that maybe they liked some of it- in interests of candor with our contributors.

That, and freedom of speech and choice is really all there is to that."



My feeling is: not quite. I still wonder what it means to be an ex-Scientologist as defined by this site, and I have yet to get a real answer. When you think about it, maybe there needs to be a new site created for the kind of dialogue this person is talking about in the quote, where these groups (Critics, Scientologists, Ex-Scientologists, Independents) can all come together and argue it out.

I've learned a lot from the posts I've read here, and this site is an incredible resource. And don't get me wrong, I love a good argument. But the way I've been challenged since arriving, I've come to the conclusion, on a certain level, this isn't an ex-Scientology message board at all. It might have started out that way, but it was and continues to be hijacked and derailed by certain people. The pro-Scientology faction makes themselves very felt and they dominate many threads. And I'm not talking about bullshit posts about Tom Cruise - who I couldn't give a fly's anus about. I'm talking about the crucial aspects of breaking down the harm, the grief, the PTSD of Scientology. My feeling is if you really see "two sides" to that, you don't belong here.

(Someone is probably thinking, who the hell does this guy think he is saying this, how long has he been here? But if you're thinking that, you're exactly the person whom I'm talking to.)

What this is, in my humble opinion, is a site on the Subject of Scientology with an emphasis on people who have left the church. Again, that may cheeky for me to say as a newcomer, but maybe it takes a newcomer to say it. Because a true ex-Scientology site would never tolerate consistent pro-Scientology posts, or responses to people who are critical of the church: "Get some freaking facts." "Some of us got major wins..." or "Yes, Lisa McPherson died but medical malpractice happens all the time." I'm not making this up, these are responses/attitudes (paraphrased) I've seen here since I arrived, and I've been like, WTF? Exactly where am I?

I've contributed to the merry go round conversations that go on and on and on where we all find ourselves caught in the matrix, unable to escape. But what I find fascinating is that if you take Scientology out of the equation and you make this instead a forum for survivors of sexual assault and rape (and I don't use this example lightly because for those ex-Scientologists who were in the Sea Org, or RPF'd, the trauma and PTSD may be just as profound), it would be unfathomable as survivors on one part of the site were talking about their personal rape experience, others were saying, "Well, sometimes if you do go out late at night and you're by yourself...", "rape statistics are down lately...." "There are some experiences where people come onto you and still say no..then what do you do?" "See both sides..." etc, etc, etc...

Thank God for posters like Smilla and I Told You I Was Trouble and many others who are kind to everyone but clear and focused about their intention and what is at stake in this battle against the church and there is a battle going on. And people don't need their efforts enervated by exhausting, random, get-you-feet-caught-up-in-the-jump-rope-trip-and-break-your-neck-I'm-not-a-Scientologist-anymore-as-I-defend-the-tech-to-the-death posts.

I'm not trying to personally attack anyone. I just think it's shitty that there is so much oil in the water, as people try to get themselves clean from Scientology's mind control and it's my observation that some people deliberately continue Scientology's process of mystification here, for whatever reason. I experienced it and almost left and I'm not the only one. It reminds me of those pictures of the BP oil spill and the seagulls and wildlife that were covered in grime. This is a very hard place at times to "get clean" when people keep reminding you how "wonderful the tech is" and keep asking you to "see both sides." For the person who haunts the site but doesn't share, who is on the fence about leaving the church and reads the apologies for LRH and his tech, sometimes this presence feels especially sinister.

So yes, free will, yes, freedom of speech, always, but isn't there a question of where that speech takes place and why?

XB


I do not think this is as cut and dry as you would like to think. See one thing that might be missed in all of this. Everyone did not get into scientology for the same reason or in the same mannor.

I had no choice in the matter. My family were in scientology. I was raised with Ethics and stats and the org board, tone scale etc. When I was 11 I was droped off with others to go door to door and sell Dianetic's books so I could get my exchange in and pay for my own courses. I was given to scientology as a teen for service to the Sea ORg. I excelled and moved my way up the command lines.

I was lucky in a way because I understood policy, I lived it . When the powers that be kept violating said policy in the name of intention It was an easy choice for me. I was able to leave but that did not change the fact that I was raised with these (insert you words here) ideas.

even knowing what would happen if I left.

I'm not the only one who is here who grew up in scientology.

I guess I should just say what I'm trying to say.

If it were not for this board I would be in a far worse place. I thank each and everyone of you for putting up with my shite.

this places is needed and it is perfect just teh way it is. ESMB gets products. It educates, it reconnects, It is a beacon of light, when there are too many people with fog machines.

yes people are afraid of ESMB but I would say that those same people do not understand it IMO.

I also believe that each person should have a voice here. I my not agree with some people but I really want them to be able to speak their peace. Yes we all should be better, do better, act better. I value all people who post here. Even the ones trying to stir up shite. if Clair or bunker, Arnie, DB, face, Ac, AK, Uniq, Tory, AO, looker etc etc etc were not here this board would suffer.

Emma is a saint in my book. for no other reason then to put up with all of this crap that she knew full well was going to happen when she started all of this. My hat is off to you and I am forever in your debt. thankyou for saving my life.

I really hope that everyone gets the spirit that was intended. :)
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Ah well, I do not think posters are writing to one another but readers of the thread who, hopefully, are plenty of lurkers.

It is like politics, no one is going to switch from far right conversation to far left liberal because of " a " post. maybe a slight shift or some food for thought.

When we come to the cult it is an onion each has to peel at their own pace.
I know when I walked out the door my feeling for Ron as they were when I was in.
Nowadays, I think the old bastard was bat shit crazy.

But, bottom line, as I have the right to believe I should help destroy the cult the next person has the same right to believe the cult is the salvation of mankind. I do not agree with the Kool Aid drinkers but I do deeply believe I must defend their right to be allowed their say.

Also, as much as it chaps my ass to see these pro-cult posts & apologists spout what I consider untruths it is more bothersome to me that some threads are DESIGNED to take attention off the cult & onto things that have no bearing on any stated purpose of this board ! Makes me want to tear my hair out !

Ah, if we all agreed & got together to sing kum-bye-ya as we held hands in love, peace & harmony it would flat out kill the board.

Why ? Controversy fuels interest.

So, folks, welcome the ass chapping deeply pissing off opposing views - it is what turns the wheels of the board !

...............or vice versa :duh:
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
I do not think that people on message boards convince anyone of anything. We are really here to write. I think there is therapy in writing.

So I know that when I write something on this board I am being heard. I don't think that I am changing anyone's mind with my posts.

There is a button for "Agree" and "Disagree" there is not button for "You changed my mind with your post" because no one would check it.

And yes sometimes people argue, then I write back and when I do so I think more about the subject and I write more and in that way I get relief.

We all have different levels of thinking about our experience in the cult and some were worse than others.

You liken this to a rape survivors board and I think really it is much different, much more complex. For me I got some good and bad from Scientology. I think the bad outweighs the good but I am here to talk about my entire experience.

If your experience was 100% bad then you should write about that. But when you communicate to a group you really have no right to say how they should respond.

My experience was not all bad but I deserve to write about my experience as much as you deserve to write about yours.

Also remember this: When I write something I have a certain thought or intention that I think is expressed through my post. However when someone else reads it they think I meant something else. Then we argue. I think there is a lot of mis-duplication on message boards and communication in general.

But my main point is that most of the therapy is in the writing (at least for me) and also in the reading posts of people who agree with me. :shrug:

Reasonable, thank you for your post. I have to say, I agree with a lot of what you have written here. I definitely don't want to stop free speech. But there is something that happens here that's different from just arguing, that I can't quite put my finger on. Anyway, again, thanks for sharing.
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
I do not think this is as cut and dry as you would like to think. See one thing that might be missed in all of this. Everyone did not get into scientology for the same reason or in the same mannor.

I had no choice in the matter. My family were in scientology. I was raised with Ethics and stats and the org board, tone scale etc. When I was 11 I was droped off with others to go door to door and sell Dianetic's books so I could get my exchange in and pay for my own courses. I was given to scientology as a teen for service to the Sea ORg. I excelled and moved my way up the command lines.

I was lucky in a way because I understood policy, I lived it . When the powers that be kept violating said policy in the name of intention It was an easy choice for me. I was able to leave but that did not change the fact that I was raised with these (insert you words here) ideas.

even knowing what would happen if I left.

I'm not the only one who is here who grew up in scientology.

I guess I should just say what I'm trying to say.

If it were not for this board I would be in a far worse place. I thank each and everyone of you for putting up with my shite.

this places is needed and it is perfect just teh way it is. ESMB gets products. It educates, it reconnects, It is a beacon of light, when there are too many people with fog machines.

yes people are afraid of ESMB but I would say that those same people do not understand it IMO.

I also believe that each person should have a voice here. I my not agree with some people but I really want them to be able to speak their peace. Yes we all should be better, do better, act better. I value all people who post here. Even the ones trying to stir up shite. if Clair or bunker, Arnie, DB, face, Ac, AK, Uniq, Tory, AO, looker etc etc etc were not here this board would suffer.

Emma is a saint in my book. for no other reason then to put up with all of this crap that she knew full well was going to happen when she started all of this. My hat is off to you and I am forever in your debt. thankyou for saving my life.

I really hope that everyone gets the spirit that was intended. :)

Thank you Exsomessenger. Yes, I want to thank Emma too, I believe this board saves lives, thank you for making this point, and for clarifying why people come here. I was expressing a frustration I felt over some of the fighting I've seen, and I meant no disrespect with this thread - I was actually trying to protect the forum in some ways, and perhaps the title doesn't suggest that. I wanted to have this conversation and I created a new thread rather than post it in the thread where I was arguing with someone, because I wanted to hear some other views. I appreciate what you've written.
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
Xenu's Boyfriend, you have some good points. Yes, you're relatively new, and therefore you've probably not seen enough cycles in the exchanges on the Board. We have good (interesting, volatile) months and bad (boring, indie-ful) months. I agree that over the last little time there seem to be more and more indies/freezoners around who want to argue Scientology's good points. I get tired of reading them too. You can use the blocking facility in ESMB if you like; I don't because I like to see who's posting (though I don't read posts from people whose POV I already know I disagree with on the subject of Scientology).

But consider this. It's friction that makes the pearl. Sometimes it takes a poster who's somewhat pro-scientology (as opposed to CoS) to get me to the point where I can clarify what my objection to scientology is. While I generally exist in a wash of general irritation with, contempt of and opposition to the whole of scientology and Hubbard, sometimes a specific pro-scn comment or viewpoint (or a milder acceptance of something) will stimulate me to think a bit harder and articulate my opposition or disagreement a bit more clearly. For me, it's all good as it adds to my general store of specific disagreements and objections.

You've been a breath of fresh air for tired old folks like me on the Board. So keep ranting and airing your opposition; you never know when one of your ideas will actually set off a chain reaction in someone else.

Petey, thank you and thanks for the encouragement. I feel very passionate about this from the things I've read and seen, I've had months, maybe years now of frustration and anger at the church and no one to talk to about it, no place to vent or express my dismay at what is happening. This has been a great place to learn and to hear the expression of different ideas - there are a lot of strong people here. I'm not here to preach, but to clarify some things (and maybe preach a little :p). Anyway, I also want to listen. Thank you.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Reasonable, thank you for your post. I have to say, I agree with a lot of what you have written here. I definitely don't want to stop free speech. But there is something that happens here that's different from just arguing, that I can't quite put my finger on. Anyway, again, thanks for sharing.

Yeah but perhaps as you toss it around in ya noggin trying to get your finger on it you will discover a little somehing that opens a whole next door - if not layers of the onion - for you.

For me, that has been the beauty of ESMB & keeps me coming back to read although I know I'm extremely close to the time for me to wave goodbye to this place & move on down my road.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Reasonable, thank you for your post. I have to say, I agree with a lot of what you have written here. I definitely don't want to stop free speech. But there is something that happens here that's different from just arguing, that I can't quite put my finger on. Anyway, again, thanks for sharing.

I think what's bugging you is the same thing that bugs me - the insincerity of a very few people who are here to try to play around with our heads, and save Scientology from us. And who are we to say that they don't have the right to try to play around with our heads? Lol.

Having said that it bugs me, it doesn't really anymore - it just makes me laugh :)
 
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