Spokeshole, fence sitter
I'd like to be infallible, but then life would be sooo boring.
PTS4, do you think it's fair to quote something someone wrote over three years ago as reflective of what they think now -- given the onion-peeling that happens around here?
It would not be fair to do so if what I quoted doesn't reflect her current views. And if that is the case I will apologize. But I haven't seen her write anything since than to contradict what she said in that post, but it's possible that I missed it.
Anyways, I don't have a problem with Claire or anyone else having those views if that's what they choose to believe. I don't wish to impose my beliefs (which are quite different) upon her. But if someone is going to say that they find "most of scientology useful", to me that is indicative of a "Hubbard influenced mindset".
Yeah, but if everybody goes around quoting three-year-old posts, there's gonna be hell to pay.
Am I missing something? What's the big deal with three years? We're not going from pampers to pre-school in here where three years is an eternity. In an adult life, three years is nothing. If you memorialize something in print, as we do here, it should stand the test of time, until you revise it.
(sigh) I was making a joke. Teasing. Making light. Having fun. Not taking myself seriously. Self deprecating. Laughing with PTS4.
My earlier point was that on a message board about Scientology where people are peeling onions, changing their minds, figuring stuff out, revisiting their earlier views (OK, enough!), it doesn't seem fair to go back to a 3+ year old post and haul it out as "evidence" of anyone's current position.
But, as PTS4 responded, what someone has said much more recently is relevant. And I agree.
No, actually, I don't.
I'm just an ex scientologist. I've noticed, though, that whenever I say things people here don't like, they start poppin' out with the "oooh, you're a Scientologist" meme. It's false and makes no sense.
So glad you're like interested, etc, and I like your posts just fine. I think you seem like a really neat artistic person. You're also quite bright and articulate.
But if you're looking to me for a Hubbard influenced mindset or anything else, then you're looking to the wrong person.
You don't what? Please specify.
Yeah, well, what does that have to do with me? Did I say "You are a $cientologist"? No? So what?
"Really neat, artistic, quite bright and articulate" are all nice attributes which I might like to have, but I'm not so sure about how much I've managed to achieving any of them. Fortunately, it doesn't matter much in this case. All I've said was: "I find mindsets influenced by Hubbard interesting".
I don't think so, but I understand why you wouldn't want to agree with me on that one.
Haven't read the whole thread, but I see this forum as exactly the place you describe. I believe that most of the people on this site have been and are no longer scn's. As such they have seen the subject from both sides and have chosen the Out side. Others add flavor and inject viewpoints that give us the opportunity to reflect on the fact that life has many more facets than In and Out. This is important because when In, many of us have seen In-ness as the only important attribute of our life. Once out, for a time we might similarly hang on to our Out-ness as an identity, but we need to move beyond that as quickly as possible.
It is also unrealistic to think that anyone could create and enforce a filter that would accept the "right" kind of people to the board and exclude others. Personally, I can't imagine it could get any better than this for most people who have left scn and are trying to figure out what the hell happened to them. I left about four years ago and am still trying to sort it out. I have been to most of the other forums and this is the one for me.
My phrasing and worldview are reflective of my own personality and my own characteristics, good and bad. I come from a rather eccentric family.
Most people on this board are exes and I'd guess that we're all influenced by the things we've done and had done to us.
I mentioned the other stuff (about you) just to let you know that I'm cool with whatever you're saying, whether I agree with it or not. Got no problem with you.
I've been out of CofS since 2000 and have been an ex Scn'ist for about 3 years now.
(In an intergalactic therapist’s office, many galaxies away…..)
Therapist: So, let’s talk about this thread you posted on the Ex- Scientologist Message Board. A lot of people have responded.
Xenu’s Boyfriend: Yes.
Therapist: How are you feeling?
XB: Okay, I guess. I mean, I’m glad I posted it. It seems to have created a good conversation/discussion. And that’s always good.
Therapist: What else?
XB: Well, I posted it right as the founder announced she is taking a leave from the site. I feel a bit like a dick, I didn’t mean to criticize her work, I was trying to protect it actually, I mean, protect what I thought it stood for. I feel guilty about that.
Therapist: You feel guilty about everything. I’m sure she’ll be fine. Go on.
XB: One thing I noticed about the group and the people who responded to what I wrote. There’s a real tolerance for the people who aren’t necessarily “on message”, who disagree, or say something that seems to be pro-Scientology, from their own experience. It’s like in a family – they may be the obnoxious uncle telling stupid jokes, or the drunk aunt, or Grandpa who comes out of his room without remembering his pajama bottoms, but everyone is welcome. The disagreements have led to breakthroughs for some, and it even seems to give the site flavor. There’s a surprising lack of judgment. Even towards me.
Therapist: How does that make you feel?
XB: It’s wonderful, I guess. But I don’t do too well with families. Mine was fucked up in a certain way, I guess I feel like I have to control everything. I want everyone to do what I want them to do. It doesn’t work that way. I think I have legitimate criticisms, but that’s not the point. The point is that I want people to act a certain way for me to feel safe. I never feel safe. But what I’m learning is that the disagreements that take place may be helpful, even if they are crazy. We need everyone. I hate people who think in black and white, and I don’t want to see the site go in that direction. I just feel, I guess because of my own family, that I have to take control or everything is going to fall apart. I mean, ESMB may be a dysfunctional family, but I think they are a family, and I feel there is love there.
Therapist: (nodding) Good work.
XB: And there was one other thing. I thought about myself. I really learned something from this experience. It’s like there are parts of myself I don’t except, that I expect to be perfect, consistent, and sometimes they just aren’t. I want everything to move in the same direction. So I wouldn’t allow those differences in myself. If there is some part I don’t like, I feel the need to change or control it too, and I can’t move until I’m perfect. But maybe this has taught me that some things may not be intregrated and may take more time. Meanwhile, while I'm working on that, I can still enjoy my life, I can still move on. I just don’t know how to do that sometimes.
Therapist: Maybe it means accepting the parts of you that you may not like all the time. The critical parts, the parts that seem to challenge you the most.
XB: You mean, accepting my inner 'Mark A. Baker'?
Therapist: That’s right. Or even the part of you that seems at times in chaos, but wants to communicate anyway, regardless of whether anything makes sense.
XB: (gulping back tears, whispering) Embrace my inner Commander Birdsong?
XB: So I guess I don’t have to come in and control the site or decide who should be saying what or how people should express themselves. That’s not my role. I feel I should apologize. Not for standing up for my beliefs, but for telling people what to think.
Therapist: I’m sure they know how you feel. (She hands XB a tissue.)
XB: But, hey! I’m still gonna get in that ass if I feel I disagree with something or someone tries to intimidate me. That’s not going to change.
Therapist: (confused) Get in that ass?
XB: Oh sorry. It’s Earth slang. We just got back from vacation there. It means, express my opinion. Not let anyone off the hook if I feel something's wrong.
Therapist: No one’s telling you not to. You should express your opinion. Just give others room to express theirs.
XB: (Blowing his nose) Thank you so much, Cathy. Now just one more thing. Xenu’s parents are coming to visit us at Christmas, and he’s drinking again. Last night we were in bed and I told him, if he doesn't start going to meetings….remember what happened at Thanksgiving? I'm still picking pieces of turkey out of the radiator.
Therapist: (Looking at watch) XB, I’m afraid that all the time we have…..
I do believe she was saying that "No, I'm not" in regards to having a Hubbard mindset,
but I'm sure she'll correct me if I am wrong
Thanks for once again avoiding a short and clear question. I will not repeat it. :wink2:
Well, the thing is: That could be the case or not. Fact is: She failed to get her message across to me in her 1st post - deliberately or not, I don't know and I don't care. That's her "problem", not mine.
Anyway, she failed to get her message across to me which is why I had to ask. In her reply, she deliberately avoided to answer my question and that made the conversation even more unpleasant for me than pulling teeth. That's exactly the point where my conversation stops and makes me think: "OK, let her do this unpleasant circle dance with someone else, it isn't worth my time."
So either she manages to get her message (if there was any) across to me in a clear, non-cryptic and understandable way, or I spend my time with more pleasant things than with these unpleasant and annoying kind of guessing games.
I'm sure about that too.
No, I'm not means I don't have the Hubbardite mindset/whatever thing.
I figured my continued explanation and discussion elucidated my position. Evidently not and sorry 'bout that.
Sorry if anyone was annoyed. Errata on my part are just that. Errata. Not intentional slights.
I should take this as a compliment, since y'all seemed to be implying you expect perfection from me and, thus, any mistakes I make are thought to be deliberate evasions, slights, what have you.
But, really, I'm no homo novis.