Obamacare and Health Insurance for Sea Org & Staff (USA)

failboat

Patron with Honors
Hello ESMB

I normally reside at WWP. I am crossposting this OP and some posts from a thread I started over on WWP a few weeks ago. If I get enough interest and requests, I will reproduce all of the important dox/links/quotes from there over here in this thread, in subsequent posts. Provisions of Obamacare begin on October 1, in less than 1 week.


WWP Thread - https://whyweprotest.net/community/...h-insurance-for-sea-org-workers-staff.112821/

http://rockstargop.wordpress.com/2013/03/13/christian-law-association-how-will-obamacare-affect-your-business-or-ministry/


The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), also known as “Obamacare,” has been upheld by the United States Supreme Court and will affect all Americans as it is implemented. The leadership of churches and ministries across the country need to understand how the provisions of PPACA will affect them.

Employer Requirements

PPACA requires employers who employ an average of 50 full-time employees during the previous year to provide health insurance coverage for all of its employees. Churches and other tax-exempt organizations are not exempt from this provision. A full-time employee is defined as an employee who works an average of 30 or more hours per week. Thus, any church, including any ministries which are not separately organized, employing 50 or more full-time employees must provide health insurance to all of its employees.
If an employer has 50 or more employees, then it has the option of providing coverage or paying a penalty. If the employer wants to avoid the penalty, then the employer must provide at least 60% of the premium cost of insurance coverage that is at least “minimum essential coverage” for employees.
Employers with fewer than 50 employees are not subject to PPACA and are NOT required to provide health insurance to its employees...
<snip>

Regarding Volunteers vs. Employees:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_Protection_Act

Who is a "volunteer"?

A volunteer (subsection 6 of 14505) is an individual who provides services to the eligible organization and whose "compensation" is at most $500.00 per year.
Staff and Sea Org make more money than that. Any lodging or food received in lieu of pay would also count toward this $500 limit.

Here is a tax/HR guy's take on the issue:

http://www.justanswer.com/tax/09j0g-volunteer-compensation-501c3-organization.html

There are two laws that apply:



    1. The Charitable Immunity and Liability Act of 1987, as amended and


  1. The Volunteer Protection Act of 1997, as amended.

Under these acts the definition of a volunteer is:

Charitable Immunity and Liability Act of 1987: "A volunteer is a person rendering services for a charitable organization who does not receive compensation in excess of reimbursement for expenses incurred. This includes a person serving as a director, officer, trustee, or direct service volunteer, including a volunteer health care provider."

The Volunteer Protection Act of 1997: "a volunteer is an individual performing services for a nonprofit organization or a governmental entity who does not receive compensation (other than reasonable reimbursement for expenses) or any other thing of value in lieu of compensation in excess of $500 per year. This term includes those serving as director, officer, trustee, or direct service volunteer."

[A] volunteer starts becoming an employee when they are reimbursed for their services beyond expense or any thing of value in lieu of compensation in excess of 500 dollars per year.​
Here's the profile of the guy who made the above comment:
http://www.justanswer.com/profile.aspx?PF=586644&FID=20

Regarding Religious Exemption:

So I am spending my morning doing some research on this.

PPACA has two major "mandates," the employer mandate and the individual mandate.

One is for institutions employing more than 50 people, requiring them to provide health insurance (or something like 60% of the cost of minimum required coverage) for their employees. It would help this project to further flesh out the definition of "employee," vs. "volunteer," and to what extent the Fair Labor Standards Act applies to CoS and its employees. I think it's pretty definitive that they are not "volunteers," given the use of employment tax forms and the strict $500 per annum compensation limit for volunteers mentioned earlier in this thread. However, there are definitely exemptions from certain provisions of FLSA that apply to CoS, and I wonder whether these can be explained and examined fully to see whether they will affect CoS under Obamacare or perhaps shield it from the employer mandate.

The other mandate of PPACA is the individual mandate, which requires individuals to purchase minimum required coverage. This mandate has exemption which an applicant may seek (on an individual basis) if that applicant meets requirements of section 1402(g)(1). According to the snopes link posted earlier,

For members of religious groups to qualify for this exemption, they would have to be adherents of a religion or sect "described in section 1402(g)(1)" ...
In general, persons seeking a health insurance exemption must belong to a religion (or sect thereof) which has been in existence since 1951 and has an established history of spurning participation in insurance programs
The text of section 1402(g)(1) of the Internal Revenue Code :



The text of 1402(g)(1):
(g) Members of certain religious faiths
(1) Exemption
Any individual may file an application (in such form and manner, and with such official, as may be prescribed by regulations under this chapter) for an exemption from the tax imposed by this chapter if he is a member of a recognized religious sect or division thereof and is an adherent of established tenets or teachings of such sect or division by reason of which he is conscientiously opposed to acceptance of the benefits of any private or public insurance which makes payments in the event of death, disability, old-age, or retirement or makes payments toward the cost of, or provides services for, medical care (including the benefits of any insurance system established by the Social Security Act). Such exemption may be granted only if the application contains or is accompanied by -
(A) such evidence of such individual's membership in, and adherence to the tenets or teachings of, the sect or division thereof as the Secretary may require for purposes of determining such individual's compliance with the preceding sentence, and
(B) his waiver of all benefits and other payments under titles II and XVIII of the Social Security Act on the basis of his wages and self-employment income as well as all such benefits and other payments to him on the basis of the wages and self-employment income of any other person, and only if the Commissioner of Social Security finds that -
(C) such sect or division thereof has the established tenets or teachings referred to in the preceding sentence,
(D) it is the practice, and has been for a period of time which he deems to be substantial, for members of such sect or division thereof to make provision for their dependent members which in his judgment is reasonable in view of their general level of living, and
(E) such sect or division thereof has been in existence at all times since December 31, 1950.

An exemption may not be granted to any individual if any benefit or other payment referred to in subparagraph (B) became payable (or, but for section 203 or 222(b) of the Social Security Act, would have become payable) at or before the time of the filing of such waiver.

From http://www.taxalmanac.org/index.php/Sec._1402._Definitions

Scientology was founded in 1952, its members do not make provision for aged/dependent members, and they do accept Social Security benefits. It would be my conclusion that Scientologists (employed by CoS or otherwise) could not apply for exemption from the individual mandate.

This is regardless of whether the CoS is mandated to provide its workers with health insurance (subsidy) or not.

Regarding October 1 Notifications:


Business Owners May Face $100-Per-Day Penalty Under ObamaCare

Fox Business-by Kate Rogers-Sep 9, 2013
Small business owners who thought they were off the hook for ObamaCare regulations until 2015 may be in for an expensive wake-up call next month.
Beginning Oct. 1, any business with at least one employee and $500,000 in annual revenue must notify all employees by letter about the Affordable Care Act’s health-care exchanges, or face up to a $100-per-day fine. The requirement applies to any business regulated under the Fair Labor Standards Act, regardless of size. Going forward, letters are to be distributed to any new hires within 14 days of their starting date, according to the Department of Labor.
Earlier this summer, the employer mandate, which states that every business with at least 50 or more full-time employees must offer workers acceptable coverage or face a $2,000 penalty per-worker, per-year, was pushed back until 2015. But the Oct. 1 employee-notification deadline stands. Keith McMurdy, partner at FOX Rothschild LLP, says the $100 per-day fine has been “unfortunately overlooked” by many small businesses, and the dollar amount on the penalty comes from the general per-day penalty under the ACA.
More at - http://smallbusiness.foxbusiness.co...bamacare-penalty-that-biz-may-not-know-about/

I've been especially looking for a US lawyer's opinion on this, but everyone's opinions and input are appreciated. Thanks in advance.

EDIT: This thread isn't meant to devolve into a constitutional debate or a political debate, so please don't derail it with either subject.

It's about fleshing out the law, AS IT CURRENTLY STANDS, and its effects on Sea Org, Staff, and Scientologists.
 
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OhMG

Patron Meritorious
God, more unconstitutional, job killing crap. Wish someone would try all the morons who pushed this for Treason and draw & quarter them already.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
When I was at CCI I was doing a project to get insurance (medical and dental) for the staff. The CO (Dave Petit) was actually trying to see about getting a plan for the staff. I spent a lot of time getting information and quotes and we were about to go ahead with it and I got ripped off by RTC for a "special project" (Universe Corps) and it was dropped.

I hope they do get insurance for them. My mom is still in the Sea Org and over 65. And probably never coming out.
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
God, more unconstitutional, job killing crap. Wish someone would try all the morons who pushed this for Treason and draw & quarter them already.

Allow me to repeat something from the first quote in OP:


The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), also known as “Obamacare,” has been upheld by the United States Supreme Court
 

OhMG

Patron Meritorious
It'll be interesting to see how many jobs are actually killed by requiring people to be insured.


It is already happening. Only one who has the IQ of the common garden snail or, lives in a cave without communications doesn't know that already.
 

OhMG

Patron Meritorious
When I was at CCI I was doing a project to get insurance (medical and dental) for the staff. The CO (Dave Petit) was actually trying to see about getting a plan for the staff. I spent a lot of time getting information and quotes and we were about to go ahead with it and I got ripped off by RTC for a "special project" (Universe Corps) and it was dropped.

I hope they do get insurance for them. My mom is still in the Sea Org and over 65. And probably never coming out.

Churches are exempt.
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
Churches are exempt.

Um. Read OP. It specifically says churches are not exempt. Seriously, I am finding it difficult to not resort to making insulting comments about your personal traits.

It is already happening. Only one who has the IQ of the common garden snail or, lives in a cave without communications doesn't know that already.

This isn't a thread to debate the politics of Obamacare. This is a thread about the health insurance mandate and its effects on Staff, Sea Org, and Scientologists.

You're derailing. Please start a thread debating the politics of Obamacare if that's your heart's desire.
 

Winston Smith

Flunked Scientology
It is crap like this that lead Mark Levin to write the Liberty Amendments. The first proposed amendment concerns term limits for all congress and the supreme court. Further it provides for the nullification of idiotic supreme court decisions by 2/3rds of the House and Senate, or 2/3rds of the states. Just because the supreme court upheld ACA does not mean it is constitutional. Neither is Roe v Wade either for that matter, but that is beside the point.

Levin detailed a few things in "Men in Black," his book on the supreme court. There have been literally blabbering fools serving on the court in the past. One had a stroke while a justice and was reduced to being a total fool; no one could understand him and he was beyond lunatic. But because of lifetime tenure, no one could get rid of him.

Why do you think Ted Cruz is doing what he is doing?
 

freethinker

Sponsor
It's not that it is unconstitutional, but applying it to people who live in the states of the union and are not holding a public office, it is unconstitutional. The Supreme Court omitted that little fact.
U.S. Supreme Court
CARTER v. CARTER COAL CO., 298 U.S. 238 (1936)
It is no longer open to question that the general government, unlike the states, Hammer v. Dagenhart, 247 U.S. 251, 275 , 38 S.Ct. 529, 3 A.L.R. 649, Ann.Cas.1918E 724, possesses no inherent power in respect of the internal affairs of the states; and emphatically not with regard to legislation.
Allow me to repeat something from the first quote in OP:
 

OhMG

Patron Meritorious
It is crap like this that lead Mark Levin to write the Liberty Amendments. The first proposed amendment concerns term limits for all congress and the supreme court. Further it provides for the nullification of idiotic supreme court decisions by 2/3rds of the House and Senate, or 2/3rds of the states. Just because the supreme court upheld ACA does not mean it is constitutional. Neither is Roe v Wade either for that matter, but that is beside the point.

Levin detailed a few things in "Men in Black," his book on the supreme court. There have been literally blabbering fools serving on the court in the past. One had a stroke while a justice and was reduced to being a total fool; no one could understand him and he was beyond lunatic. But because of lifetime tenure, no one could get rid of him.

Why do you think Ted Cruz is doing what he is doing?

Yep. Also, most people don't know that the SCotUS has no constitutional authority to interpret the Constitution nor to declare laws "constitutional". FAR too many citizens are almost wholly ignorant of this most important document.
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
It's not that it is unconstitutional, but applying it to people who live in the states of the union and are not holding a public office, it is unconstitutional. The Supreme Court omitted that little fact.
U.S. Supreme Court
CARTER v. CARTER COAL CO., 298 U.S. 238 (1936)
It is no longer open to question that the general government, unlike the states, Hammer v. Dagenhart, 247 U.S. 251, 275 , 38 S.Ct. 529, 3 A.L.R. 649, Ann.Cas.1918E 724, possesses no inherent power in respect of the internal affairs of the states; and emphatically not with regard to legislation.

Insurance covers you when you cross state lines.

People leave their states all the time to conduct interstate commerce.

Interstate commerce is the federal government's jurisdiction.

SCOTUS says it's constitutional. I don't know why there's so much resistance from you armchair internet lawyers.

Finally, please stop derailing. This thread isn't meant to devolve into a constitutional debate or a political debate.

It's about fleshing out the law, AS IT CURRENTLY STANDS, and its effects on Sea Org, Staff, and Scientologists.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
leaving your state just because you are insured, does not contitute interstate commerce.

Regulating does not mean controling, it means to allow to flow freely.

It does say, getting back to your OP that it has to have fifty employees or more. How many churches have that? It will work on the big orgs but the little orgs can avoid it.
Insurance covers you when you cross state lines.

People leave their states all the time to conduct interstate commerce.

Interstate commerce is the federal government's jurisdiction.

SCOTUS says it's constitutional. I don't know why there's so much resistance from you armchair internet lawyers.

Finally, please stop derailing. This thread isn't meant to devolve into a constitutional debate or a political debate.

It's about fleshing out the law, AS IT CURRENTLY STANDS, and its effects on Sea Org, Staff, and Scientologists.
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
leaving your state just because you are insured, does not contitute interstate commerce.

Regulating does not mean controling, it means to allow to flow freely.

It does say, getting back to your OP that it has to have fifty employees or more. How many churches have that? It will work on the big orgs but the little orgs can avoid it.

Read the OP about the individual mandate and comment on the likelihood of individual Scientologists gaining exemption from it.

They will still all have to buy insurance, or pay a fine. That's money the CoS doesn't get.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
Go for it. Uncover , I believe is a lawyer. Try PMing him.
Read the OP about the individual mandate and comment on the likelihood of individual Scientologists gaining exemption from it.

They will still all have to buy insurance, or pay a fine. That's money the CoS doesn't get.
 

Lone Star

Crusader
Um. Read OP. It specifically says churches are not exempt. Seriously, I am finding it difficult to not resort to making insulting comments about your personal traits.



This isn't a thread to debate the politics of Obamacare. This is a thread about the health insurance mandate and its effects on Staff, Sea Org, and Scientologists.

You're derailing. Please start a thread debating the politics of Obamacare if that's your heart's desire.

LOL!! Welcome to ESMB Failboat! I see you've met our resident flame throwing neo-Bircher OhMG. Just put him on your 'Ignore List'. I have myself and the forum is so much better now!! He's a real name calling asswipe.....ooooops I just called him a name. :ohmy:

I knew when I read your OP that a handful of posters would just see the word "Obamacare" and starting seeing nothing but red. Then they would start pounding away on the keyboard, mostly recalling rants from Limbaugh, Hannity, Levin, Beck, etc....:eyeroll:

Of course all you were trying to do was show how this law could impact the CoS negatively. Now you're going to probably get a schooling in the Constitution and a knee jerk right wing radio show. Fun eh?

Hopefully others will come along and understand your OP and then engage in a meaningful discussion. Hopefully..

Welcome again Failboat!!


For the Record: I myself do loathe Obamacare, and I think it will be a terrific failure. But that has nothing to do with the OP. Thankya....thankya very much...:biggrin:
 

iHateDuplicity

Patron with Honors
Per the OP, churches are not exempt and the Cof$ is one very large organization when it comes to this law. I think it is going to have a negative impact on the Cof$ if they can't somehow gain exemption from it. I don't know if they have anyone working on it right now, since they tend to be such Last-Minute Louie's when it comes to handling things like this, but we'll see. I would be idly curious if anyone in the Cof$ has yet been informed about the health care issues since they are supposed to do that much.

As to the constitutionality of Obamacare, I don't agree with it in any way shape or form. But I'm not going to get into that here out of respect for the OP and the point of this thread. If OhMG wants to rant about it, please do so on a separate thread and respect the OPs message.
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
Churches themselves are exempt.
The power of assertion only makes you into the 1st 3 letters. Read the OP:

http://rockstargop.wordpress.com/2013/03/13/christian-law-association-how-will-obamacare-affect-your-business-or-ministry/

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), also known as “Obamacare,” has been upheld by the United States Supreme Court and will affect all Americans as it is implemented. The leadership of churches and ministries across the country need to understand how the provisions of PPACA will affect them.

Employer Requirements

PPACA requires employers who employ an average of 50 full-time employees during the previous year to provide health insurance coverage for all of its employees. Churches and other tax-exempt organizations are not exempt from this provision. A full-time employee is defined as an employee who works an average of 30 or more hours per week. Thus, any church, including any ministries which are not separately organized, employing 50 or more full-time employees must provide health insurance to all of its employees.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
Hello ESMB

I normally reside at WWP. I am crossposting this OP and some posts from a thread I started over on WWP a few weeks ago. If I get enough interest and requests, I will reproduce all of the important dox/links/quotes from there over here in this thread, in subsequent posts. Provisions of Obamacare begin on October 1, in less than 1 week.


WWP Thread - https://whyweprotest.net/community/...h-insurance-for-sea-org-workers-staff.112821/

http://rockstargop.wordpress.com/2013/03/13/christian-law-association-how-will-obamacare-affect-your-business-or-ministry/




Regarding Volunteers vs. Employees:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_Protection_Act


Staff and Sea Org make more money than that. Any lodging or food received in lieu of pay would also count toward this $500 limit.



Regarding Religious Exemption:



Regarding October 1 Notifications:




I've been especially looking for a US lawyer's opinion on this, but everyone's opinions and input are appreciated. Thanks in advance.

EDIT: This thread isn't meant to devolve into a constitutional debate or a political debate, so please don't derail it with either subject.

It's about fleshing out the law, AS IT CURRENTLY STANDS, and its effects on Sea Org, Staff, and Scientologists.

So I would be guessing that most Sea Org members are based in the US. How much will this cost the cult to have to provide healthcare for them? This could be a bit of a Tylenol moment for Davey - and you know that means first aid for everyone else!
 
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