Obamacare and Health Insurance for Sea Org & Staff (USA)

failboat

Patron with Honors
A lot of AnonyMary's commentary above addresses the Individual mandate, not the Employer mandate.


I am not certain whether AnonyMary thought she was discussing the Employer Mandate or the Individual Mandate when she quoted the material that she did. However, this flow chart and the one I just posted should hopefully clarify the differences between the 2. **

individual-mandate.png

http://obamacarefacts.com/obamacare-individual-mandate.php



** I also addressed the idea that Scientology is a religion opposed to insurance in the OP of this thread - my conclusion was that Scientologists could not apply for exemption from the individual mandate based on religious objections. Furthermore, that exemption is from the individual mandate, and has no bearing on the employer mandate.

EDIT: And here's that employer mandate flowchart again, for easy comparison. I wish that this forum had more than 10 posts per page. LoneStar, I addressed the employee vs. volunteer issue in the OP.

affordable-care-act-small-business.png


http://obamacarefacts.com/obamacare-employer-mandate.php
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
I don't care what you addressed earlier. The flowchart centers on the word "Employee". If SO staffers can be legally determined as volunteers then the cult doesn't have to play the game.

Clear the words "Employee" and "Volunteer".

I did clear those words, in the OP.

Volunteers can make up to $500 per year, no more. OP cites federal laws on this. Check OP for links.

Sea Org and Staff receive W-2's. The IRS classifies W-2's as employment tax forms. Federal tax law requires people who are compensated $600 or more per year to be issued W-2's. http://www.irs.gov/uac/Form-W-2,-Wage-and-Tax-Statement
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Employment-Tax-Forms
 

Lone Star

Crusader
I did clear those words, in the OP.

Volunteers can make up to $500 per year, no more. OP cites federal laws on this. Check OP for links.

Sea Org and Staff receive W-2's. The IRS classifies W-2's as employment tax forms. Federal tax law requires people who are compensated $600 or more per year to be issued W-2's. http://www.irs.gov/uac/Form-W-2,-Wage-and-Tax-Statement
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Employment-Tax-Forms

Okie dokie.

I still think DM can work around this. He can "fix it" to where they don't make more than $500 and stop issuing W-2s. No problemo for the Dwarfenfuhrer and his creative, slimy tax attorneys. Monique Dingaling is probably already on it.
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
Okie dokie.

I still think DM can work around this. He can "fix it" to where they don't make more than $500 and stop issuing W-2s. No problemo for the Dwarfenfuhrer and his creative, slimy tax attorneys. Monique Dingaling is probably already on it.

I anticipate high turnover in the near future if DM wants to reduce wages to under $10/week for Sea Org AND Staff. The paycut for Sea Org would be over 80%, while the paycut for staff would probably be well over 90%.

If they lost many/most of their employees, then that would be an amazingly good outcome from Obamacare, IMO.
 

Lone Star

Crusader
I anticipate high turnover in the near future if DM wants to reduce wages to under $10/week for Sea Org AND Staff. The paycut for Sea Org would be over 80%, while the paycut for staff would probably be well over 90%.

If they lost many/most of their employees, then that would be an amazingly good outcome from Obamacare, IMO.

I'm really surprised that DM didn't choose to challenge the law like other "religious" organizations have and are doing. Most are objecting to the abortion and birth control coverage. Scn could object to the mental health coverage requirement, which is against their "religion".

Some of the legal challenges have yet to be decided by the courts. DM may try to piggy back on the precedent if those churches are successful.
 

Gib

Crusader
Sorry I don't know off-hand who on this thread has been in the Sea Org and who has not.... but I was in charge of staff medical for CCInt for many years.

Most Sea Org members would not want medical insurance. They think,because it was said by LRH somewhere, that doctors are only to mend broken bones. And Sea Org members would not see the point of having that insurance, which is a waste of org funds. That is the thinking.

And if they do end up with insurance, I doubt they would be required to pay it out of pocket. It would either be paid directly to insurance company, or it would be added to each paycheck,then subtracted.

But like everything in Scn, it would be started and dropped and then would flap later.

I'd agree, that is the thinking. Anybody who was duped into scientology and ultimately the Sea Org, thinking they are the elite, and will become OT maximus by joining the winning team,

will not give a shit about the Obama health care insurance plan. I signed that stupid SO billion year contract, and made it thru the "welcome to the SO course", until I blew.

I, at the time, didn't care about any "wog" laws.

Anybody who got as far as me and beyond, certaintly didn't care about "wog" laws. Those laws were inferior to the master plan of scientology. We were the elite, the chosen few.......................


:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
My opinion, failboat, is that the churches of scientology and other entities under the Org Board that did not in the past provide insurance are going to comply and get the required insurance ( if they have not already ) The churches ( the employers ) won't have to pay any penalty on a mandate because they would be complying. Which I stated they would. And I explained how they would get around not having to pay lots of money because there are loopholes for a good majority the employees so they can decline purchasing their of the costs. But you would have known that had you read all of what I wrote.
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
My opinion, failboat, is that the churches of scientology and other entities under the Org Board that did not in the past provide insurance are going to comply and get the required insurance ( if they have not already ) The churches ( the employers ) won't have to pay any penalty on a mandate because they would be complying. Which I stated they would. And I explained how they would get around not having to pay lots of money because there are loopholes for a good majority the employees so they can decline purchasing their of the costs. But you would have known that had you read all of what I wrote.

I did read all of what you wrote. I apologize for the briefness of my response above, or if it implied a level of comprehension to where I had not read all of what you had written. I was watching the conference and didn't have time to address all of your comments. I also didn't get a chance to visit all your links.

High deductible group plans would indeed be an unattractive prospect for CoS employees and discourage them from buying in.

I just want to point out the boxes in the employer mandate flowchart above that say:


  • "Do any employees have to pay more than 9.5% of family income for the employer coverage?"
  • "Did at least one employee receive a premium tax credit or cost sharing subsidy in an exchange?"
  • And the two boxes directly below it that also refer to employees seeking health insurance on exchanges

It appears that penalties accrue if even one employee seeks health care on exchanges or a premium tax credit, and that the employer coverage must pay for at least 60% of the covered health care expenses, and also that the employer provided coverage must be less expensive than 9.5% of the family's income.

In any case, I do appreciate your input, and I will be spending time with your links.
 
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AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
My point, failboat, is that the churches WILL buy plans for employees, so there will be no penalties for them.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
What counts as an employer? We loosely talk about "The Church of Scientology," but there is no such corporate entity.

Consider a large local org, and let's say it has 90 staff. They all legally work for the corporation named "Church of Scientology of Crapsville." So a new corporation gets rapidly created, called "Church of the Black Death" or something, which employs 45 of the staff (less than the magic 50). Let's say half the divisions belong to one, half to another, and a few staff get shuffled onto other posts so the numbers balance. The paperwork matches, in that they all signed new contracts and their payslips have different headings etc etc.

Why couldn't they play some kind of shell game like that?

Paul
 

Lone Star

Crusader
What counts as an employer? We loosely talk about "The Church of Scientology," but there is no such corporate entity.

Consider a large local org, and let's say it has 90 staff. They all legally work for the corporation named "Church of Scientology of Crapsville." So a new corporation gets rapidly created, called "Church of the Black Death" or something, which employs 45 of the staff (less than the magic 50). Let's say half the divisions belong to one, half to another, and a few staff get shuffled onto other posts so the numbers balance. The paperwork matches, in that they all signed new contracts and their payslips have different headings etc etc.

Why couldn't they play some kind of shell game like that?

Paul

Very good point, and it confirms my suspicion that Obamacare will not impact "the Church" much if at all. All they have to do is have each "entity" only "employ" up to but not over 50 people. Businesses under 50 employees are exempt from the employer mandate.

Or like I said earlier DM will just slash their pay even more and make sure no one gets more than $500 or 600 per year so that they will legally be just volunteers.
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
Employer Mandate Begins Tomorrow

Tomorrow is 1/1/15, which is the day that the employer mandate begins. See post #161 above for a summary of the employer mandate.



I haven't had time to do very much research on this stuff for the last 6 months.



Meanwhile, here's a few things that I have had time to notice. Hat tip to Communicator I/C - I believe he has threads on this first item both at ESMB and WWP, but I am too tired to go find them right now. Feel free to post links to those threads if you want.


HHS, Planned Parenthood Promote Obamacare For Teens at Church of Scientology
April 24, 2014 - 4:28 PM
by Penny Star

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...od-promote-obamacare-teens-church-scientology
Getting teens to sign up for the Affordable Care Act and learn how to obtain contraceptives through Obamacare, was the focus of an event hosted by the D.C. Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy at the Church of Scientology’s National Affairs Office in Washington, D.C. on Thursday, a gathering that featured officials from the Health and Human Services Department and the Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA) ...
<snip>
But before the event started, the Rev. Susan Taylor, president of the D.C. Church of Scientology, showed a video clip of the introduction to “The Way to Happiness” a feature-length film, which shows “the 21 precepts of the way to happiness.”
<more at link>
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...od-promote-obamacare-teens-church-scientology


Also this. Indicates that there are more than 50 Sea Org at LA Org, and also has some speculation about other orgs (not excerpted):
PAC/LA Org Update: Contraction Is Expansion
October 2, 2014
By Mike Rinder


....



Following is a summary of information forwarded to me from people in LA (along with a final, rather interesting commentary about the Hare Krishnas). They are in no particular order and come from 5 different sources. I have not repeated duplicated information but included what was sent pretty much verbatim:

  • Official number of SO at LA Org is 230 (fully manned). There’s a meeting at LA Org Thuresday night at 6:30 PM for FSMs, OTC members, and some others to do non-E with the new staff. Wider announcement at PAC graduation on Friday.
....

http://www.mikerindersblog.org/pacla-org-update-contraction-is-expansion/


Feel free to post questions here, but don't count on me to be able to answer them quickly.


If you've read this whole thread, then I welcome your informed, on-topic commentary.
 

Helena Handbasket

Gold Meritorious Patron
Either way, expect the C of S to tie the matter up in courts for years.

I myself am not in favor of mandatory health insurance, but I am in favor of appropriate health care for everyone. People tend to get so hung up on insurance that they forget about what the insurance is supposed to accomplish.

I got caught in the German insurance net (which is a lot like Obamacare). So if Obama doesn't make me buy insurance, Merkel will.

What do you call a system for extracting money from the sick? HEALTH CARE.

What do you call a system for extracting money from the healthy? INSURANCE.

Helena, who would make an act of insurance punishable by law
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
I'm really surprised that DM didn't choose to challenge the law like other "religious" organizations have and are doing. Most are objecting to the abortion and birth control coverage. Scn could object to the mental health coverage requirement, which is against their "religion".

Some of the legal challenges have yet to be decided by the courts. DM may try to piggy back on the precedent if those churches are successful.

Either DM is letting other 'religions' do the expensive law work, and watching, or he couldn't give a toss because he'll just move staff to other continents, or of course just delay payments as long as he can or until he flies to Korea to start a new life with a very fat private jet full of gold.

It is against scn principles to care about downstat sick people, he will find ways not to.
 
Anonymous WWP poster: https://whyweprotest.net/community/...or-sea-org-workers-staff.112821/#post-2344444
"I am not familiar with the practices of Christian Scientists, but it looks as though their web site is correct that the general membership of the church will not be exempt from the obligation to purchase insurance under new § 5000A. Section 5000A cross-references § 1402(g) of the Social Security Act, which exempts those who are "conscientiously opposed to acceptance of the benefits of any private or public insurance which makes payments in the event of death, disability, old age, or retirement or makes payments toward the cost of, or provides services for, medical care." I gather that the Church leadership does not believe its practices meet this standard."

So far as I know, Christian Scientists have nothing against getting insurance in general (Life, home, auto, health, etc.) as the Amish do. I can report from my experience with helping an elderly relative that some Christian Scientists do have insurance policies that will cover their "health care"; specifically treatments by Practitioners, Christian Science private nursing in home care, (they do just about everything regular nurses do except give medicine) or cover a stay in an accredited Christian Science nursing home or care facility. Not sure if group home or long term care facilities are covered as well, but maybe yes, like as for disability insurance. Policy holders have a share of cost and a deductable, just as in most more traditional health care coverage.

In other words, there are already existing "health" insurance policies which are specifically tailored to the needs of Christian Science church members, and many members have them in place for when a need arises. So getting insured may not be that big a hurdle for most Christian Scientists, except for the cost. It's possible the Mother Church will facilitate some low to moderate cost group policies with the companies who can offer this type of insurance as a service to their members.

Here's a resource which may be informative: http://christianscience.com/member-...us-federal-office/health-care-reform/aca-faqs
"Coverage of Christian Science health care services-
Various U.S. federal, state, and private health insurance plans provide for the reimbursement of Christian Science nursing care and practitioner treatment. The U.S. Federal Office has been working to increase the availability of insurance options that cover these types of care.

Medicare and Christian Science nursing facilities-
Seventeen Christian Science nursing facilities across the United States are Medicare providers. (Find out which ones from the Commission for Accreditation of Christian Science Nursing Organizations/Facilities, Inc.)"
 
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failboat

Patron with Honors
The CoS is exempt from this mandate. No discussion needed.

Obamacare has two mandates - an individual mandate, and an employer mandate.

Individual members of the CoS are not exempt from the individual mandate to get insured.

Despite your assertion, I believe the CoS is not exempt from the employer mandate, so I would be happy to discuss the reasons why. Oh, wait, I have been posting them all in this thread, with dox and links to back me up.

You are welcome to discuss counterpoints for why you think the CoS is exempt. However, since you seem to think the discussion is over by way of your unsupported comment, I will not hold out hope for your participation.
 

Lone Star

Crusader
Obamacare has two mandates - an individual mandate, and an employer mandate.

Individual members of the CoS are not exempt from the individual mandate to get insured.

Despite your assertion, I believe the CoS is not exempt from the employer mandate, so I would be happy to discuss the reasons why. Oh, wait, I have been posting them all in this thread, with dox and links to back me up.

You are welcome to discuss counterpoints for why you think the CoS is exempt. However, since you seem to think the discussion is over by way of your unsupported comment, I will not hold out hope for your participation.

Yes, individuals are not exempt from the individual mandate. But the CoS is exempt from the employer mandate. But I don't wish to discuss it. I just know I am right. That's all that matters. LOL.....

But others may wish to discuss. By all means....do!
 

Smurf

Gold Meritorious SP
Yes, individuals are not exempt from the individual mandate. But the CoS is exempt from the employer mandate. But I don't wish to discuss it. I just know I am right. That's all that matters. LOL

That was this year. The rules change tomorrow. http://obamacarefacts.com/obamacare-employer-mandate

Sea Org members are not exempt from Obamacare.

"If you belong to any of the groups listed below you are exempt from ObamaCare’s mandate to “obtain minimum essential coverage” (i.e. buy insurance)....

Religious Conscience- People can qualify for religious exemptions. The Social Security Administration administers the process for recognizing these sects according to the criteria in the law.

Health Care Sharing Ministry- If you are a member of a recognized health care sharing ministry you qualify for an exemption.

http://obamacarefacts.com/obamacare-mandate-exemption-penalty
 
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