Oh! God!!!

[Vinaire]

Vin - Actually, my remarks were directed at FM in an effort to get him to look at what direction his remarks, if acted upon, would lead people. I was hoping to get FM to look a little deeper at what he is saying to us.

In any case, I appreciate your summation of the difference between humans, insects and animals and pointing out the specific dangers of fixation, dispersal and automaticity as limiting factors.
Lkwdblds

Is FM fixated? What is that fixation?

.

 

[lkwdblds]

RE: FM and fixation.

Is FM fixated? What is that fixation?

.

FM is not dispersed. He repeats his messages TR 3 style no matter what challenges or questions are posed to him.

He is fixated, believing that he alone knows the key to this Universe and the secretes of living successfully within it. He is fixated on broadcasting this fact to others. He does not care much whether or not others accept his "teachings" but his fixation is on letting all who will listen know that his is the only valid viewpoint, that he alone knows and spending time or discussion on any other viewpoint is counterproductive and only makes matter worse.
Lkwdblds

 

[Vinaire]

FM is not dispersed. He repeats his messages TR 3 style no matter what challenges or questions are posed to him.

He is fixated, believing that he alone knows the key to this Universe and the secretes of living successfully within it. He is fixated on broadcasting this fact to others. He does not care much whether or not others accept his "teachings" but his fixation is on letting all who will listen know that his is the only valid viewpoint, that he alone knows and spending time or discussion on any other viewpoint is counterproductive and only makes matter worse.
Lkwdblds

So, FM is fixated on certain thoughts. He is using thought to convey an anti-thought message.

It appears that FM is using thought-based logic to convince others about the futility of thought-based logic. He is not setting a good example, is he?

Logic doesn't work here. He needs to realize that and come up with a better method, such as, Vipassana Meditation.

He should try that actually.

.

 

[lkwdblds]

Good analysis.

So, FM is fixated on certain thoughts. He is using thought to convey an anti-thought message.

Exactly so!

It appears that FM is using thought-based logic to convince others about the futility of thought-based logic. He is not setting a good example, is he?

Exactly so!

Logic doesn't work here. He needs to realize that and come up with a better method, such as, Vipassana Meditation.

Agreed but I decided to try extreme logic in the animal and insect analogy to try and shake him out of his fixation through a "reduction by absurdity" type of proof. I thought my post was clever and amusing but, knowing FM, I did not really think it would create the slightest effect on him.

He should try that actually.

.

He should try it but being FM, I doubt very much if he will.

 

[Vinaire]

...

Agreed but I decided to try extreme logic in the animal and insect analogy to try and shake him out of his fixation through a "reduction by absurdity" type of proof. I thought my post was clever and amusing but, knowing FM, I did not really think it would create the slightest effect on him.

He should try it but being FM, I doubt very much if he will.

I don't think anybody has any business trying to change anybody.

One may simply present one's considerations as data. Let the other person (e.g. FM) look at it and then decide for himself.

.

 

[lkwdblds]

I agree

I don't think anybody has any business trying to change anybody.

One may simply present one's considerations as data. Let the other person (e.g. FM) look at it and then decide for himself.

.

I agree.
Lkwdblds

 

[finishedman]

Scn and several other systems encourage you to change as if there is something about you that is awry, something there that is a hindrance (to what?). If you buy into that, then you will try to stay out of the way. Trying to stay out of the way implies that you are waiting for something marvelous to happen. Such waiting prevents the possibility of anything that is natural to you from happening. So, is there in you the inability to take care of yourself naturally? If so, then by all means, if that other thing is what you want , go for it. Let the pundit in whatever field you undertake tell you what to do.

If we discuss or share what we have found out from our experiences, that’s all well and good. We might see a correspondence in the discoveries we have encountered as we search for who we are and even discover that various systems of thinking have put us on the wrong track after all. All that you had found yourself exposed to could very well have failed your expectations in that it could not fully deliver what it had so highly promised but rather distributed little bits of petty satisfaction. The possibility exists that eventually one might realize the search was useless, and who is the only one responsible for continuing in it other than ones self?

As for myself, I realized that the search was useless, that the "enemy was me". Now the entire knowledge, and the search it engendered, has been thrown out of my system completely. It isn't some sort of marketable commodity I am trying to impress upon you or sell you on, it is simply the absence of a false demand which has been put in there by some agency outside of me. The demand to change one's self and the demand to change the world go out of the system together. I am neither antisocial nor thankful to any structured customs of a community of people. I don't feel any bounden duty to play any part or to help my fellow men. All this kind of thing is balderdash. Attempting to change anyone is the last thing I would take on.

 

[finishedman]

One may simply present one's considerations as data. Let the other person (e.g. FM) look at it and then decide for himself.

.

What in the world could be so pressing that it needs our consideration?

Data for what? ... the problems we have? Are there really problems or just a lot of solutions offered and for sale to the most gullible? Anyway, trying to solve our non existent problems makes us feel like we are getting somewhere that we are really living!

 

[lkwdblds]

This is actually a pretty deep topic.

I don't think anybody has any business trying to change anybody.

One may simply present one's considerations as data. Let the other person (e.g. FM) look at it and then decide for himself.

.

I answered your quote above with two words, "I agree." but my agreement applied mainly in dealing with FM and others similar to him.

I've thought about your above quote further and it is quite a broad and deep topic. I know, in raising children, it seems to be natural for parents to want to change behavior patterns in their kids. Just looking at it on the surface, this seems to be a correct and proper activity. Marriage counselors seem to be devoting their careers to changing the behavior patterns of others and often people come to them and pay them to do it. Preachers certainly attempt to change peoples' core values and in this type of example, they may be violating what you write in your first sentence.

In Scientology auditing, people pay large sums of money to have the "Church" orchestrate a process that will change them. When done properly, this seems to be a good thing because the Church's counselor does not actually attempt to change the person but guides the person and enables him to make changes in himself.

Could you clarify deeper what you mean by stating, "I don't think anybody has any business trying to change anybody." I think I get what you are saying. To me, you are saying not to evaluate for another person and use force or heavy persuasion or deceit to force a change. However, if a person wants change in himself, or if a person is a child and does not yet know better, then another person can offer considerations and data and even point the person in the right direction so that he can make changes in himself.

If I am on the right track with you, no answer is required but if I am off, please point out a little more fully what you mean by your statement.
Thanks, Lakey.

 

[finishedman]

However, if a person wants change in himself, or if a person is a child and does not yet know better, then another person can offer considerations and data and even point the person in the right direction so that he can make changes in himself.

When you get right down to it, who is to say, other than idealist, spiritualists, philosophers, psychologists, and the like, in their thinking, what is the right direction, level or dimension? Aren't there arbitrary distinctions being made as far as what is better and what isn't, what is more dignified or proper and what isn't?

 

[lkwdblds]

chakras

Vin - I was reading on another thread and Dull Old Fart, call him Dully, took up the term Chakras in one of his posts. He used it in the sense of a living being having a connection to beings no longer alive such as former parents, former group members, etc. This resonated very strongly with me. Do you plan on taking up Chakras on this thread or do you have any good references on it?.........Lakey

 

[finishedman]

If the animal world exhibits the ideals which you are propounding in your last post, which it most certainly does, then following the animal world back and back to its simplest forms would return us to the early days of Earth when the amoeba first developed as a one cell creature. Is this the direction in which you want to take us?
Lkwdblds

What is it that distinguishes us from animals? We think we are different, right?

Self-conscious thinking is responsible for the notion that there is something that distinguishes us from animals. When I use the word self-consciousness I don't mean it in terms of religious thinking. What I mean is very simple: I mean the feeling that you are different from the computer there, that you are different from other things. This is what I mean by separation. That feeling doesn't exist in animals at all. We are made to believe that there is something that you can do, to bring about a change in and around you. The demand for change springs from this self-consciousness, the separation from the singleness of the whole nature around us.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Ah...Finished, we are animals, mammalians, to be precise. Maybe it would be better to say, what distinguishes us from our fellow animals?

I'm not so sure we're all that different, I think some of them are pretty self-aware, too. I think for sure they have souls, or express Soul with their being.

 

[Gadfly]

Some eastern philosophy views it like this.

First there is inanimate matter and energy. The raw chemicals and elements. The "lowest" rung would involve rocks, dirt, sand, and all things without what we usually call "life".

A bit of organization enters in at the next stage of plants, trees, and all other immobile living things. All things that are termed "alive", but which are pretty much stuck where they are.

Next adds in some mobility, with a sense of some volition (though not conscious or self-aware). Anything that can move; amoeba, animals, etc. At this stage there is VERY limited control of the environment because the species do not have sufficient self-awareness, reason, intellect or analytical ability.

With self-consciousness comes the humans. The ability to reason, imagine, think in abstractions, verbalize and especially control the environment to a marked degree enters in at this stage. In some Hindu (or Buddhist) literature, interestingly, the Chakras align with each of these stages. There are seven primary Chakras, and apparently thusly, there are two or three stages of advancement above the level of human that are as different in magnitude as a thinking human being is from an ant.

If it is true that the spirit is the basic, the source of it all, and if it is true that it is this spirit ALIGNED with animal forms that results in self-consciousness, then all ideas trying to assert that all animals (including us) are somehow "equal" is absurd. The idea is wrapped right up in the term itself "human being". The "human" part is the animal, BUT there is something else there that is not existing in any other animal on earth - "being" - the entity, the conscious aware spirit. The person on earth is "human" added to "being". This may or may not be true. Possibly modern evolutionary biologists are correct and all consciousness is nothing other than some random accidental development resulting from chemical and electrical reactions in a brain. I don't think so, but it could be true . . . .

Also, in the same literature that aligns Chakras with major stages of cosmic evolution, there is the idea that any animal species has ONE consciousness. There is no individual awareness, as with a human, not to any sufficient degree.

Also, it may be true that there is some form of consciousness or awareness in anything, down to an atom or cell or electron. But, "self-consciousness" only enters in apparently at about the "fourth level" (human beings and higher).

I don't know if any of that is true, but the ideas resonate more with me than pure materialistic interpretations that somehow place "Nature" as an absolute and try to make human beings no different than an ant or a fart (though in many cases, observing how so many humans behave, this might not seem far from the truth).

Also there are things that ONLY exist with human beings:

self-awareness, creative imagination, logic, abstract thought, ability to form concepts

While some animals "may" possess these abilities, without the ability to form language and communicate with words (another KEY human ability), there is just no way to know. Some animals "may" communicate telepathically.

A world with ONLY animals (and all levels below), missing ONLY the human species, would be a world of raw Nature. No buildings, no roads, no art, NO IDEAS, no marked effects created out in the environment, no marked creativity, etc.

IDEAS ONLY EXIST IN AND TO A THINKING MIND. There is no "idea" out there anywhere, not seperate from a thinking mind that entertains the "idea". The ability to "think" enters in at the stage where human beings enter into the mix of life. That is visibly apparent and obvious. Yes, ideas "might" exist in the head of some animal or in the energy pattern of some atom, BUT without the ability to COMMUNICATE via CONCEPTS, there is no way to know. It is all moot without conceptual thinking - and ONLY humans display that unique and interesting ability.

There IS something very different about human beings and their self-awareness. Whether this is "better" or "worse", or "good" or "bad", well, that is a judgment. Again, only thinking minds make judgments. I leave that up to the reader.

 

[lkwdblds]

Good to see that ostrich logo again!

Some eastern philosophy views it like this.

First there is inanimate matter and energy. The raw chemicals and elements. The "lowest" rung would involve rocks, dirt, sand, and all things without what we usually call "life".

A bit of organization enters in at the next stage of plants, trees, and all other immobile living things. All things that are termed "alive", but which are pretty much stuck where they are.

Next adds in some mobility, with a sense of some volition (though not conscious or self-aware). Anything that can move; amoeba, animals, etc. At this stage there is VERY limited control of the environment because the species do not have sufficient self-awareness, reason, intellect or analytical ability.

Something like an orange having seeds and falling from a tree when ripe only to be eaten by a bear who then digest the orange and excretes the seeds at a different physical location is very indicative of some kind of substantial intellect working behind the scenes. This act of dissemination is very intricate and well thought out and strongly suggests analytical ability comming from some source.

With self-consciousness comes the humans. The ability to reason, imagine, think in abstractions, verbalize and especially control the environment to a marked degree enters in at this stage. In some Hindu (or Buddhist) literature, interestingly, the Chakras align with each of these stages. There are seven primary Chakras, and apparently thusly, there are two or three stages of advancement above the level of human that are as different in magnitude as a thinking human being is from an ant.

It sure seems intuitively that there are two or three stages of advancement above the level of human. My intuitve reaction is that the gap between stages is not as different as that between human and ant. I have nothing to base this on but only a gut feeling. If there are 3 levels, each with ant to human gaps, either humans are nearly totally insignificant or the top level would be higher than that of what religions conceive God to be.

If it is true that the spirit is the basic, the source of it all, and if it is true that it is this spirit ALIGNED with animal forms that results in self-consciousness, then all ideas trying to assert that all animals (including us) are somehow "equal" is absurd. The idea is wrapped right up in the term itself "human being". The "human" part is the animal, BUT there is something else there that is not existing in any other animal on earth - "being" - the entity, the conscious aware spirit. The person on earth is "human" added to "being". This may or may not be true. Possibly modern evolutionary biologists are correct and all consciousness is nothing other than some random accidental development resulting from chemical and electrical reactions in a brain. I don't think so, but it could be true . . . .

Any system asserting animals and humans are "equal" is absurd to me too. I like the term symbiots. The first three levels of which you mention are symbiotic to the 4th level of humans. I have no idea if we are symbiots of the 2 or 3 levels higher than us. Maybe they "eat" us or use us as pets or arrange us into patterns to serve as artwork. What do you think Gadfly, would human beings be symbiots for the higher levels. My guess or gut feeling would be yes they are.

Also, in the same literature that aligns Chakras with major stages of cosmic evolution, there is the idea that any animal species has ONE consciousness. There is no individual awareness, as with a human, not to any sufficient degree.

Also, it may be true that there is some form of consciousness or awareness in anything, down to an atom or cell or electron. But, "self-consciousness" only enters in apparently at about the "fourth level" (human beings and higher).

My guess if that the first sentence above is true. As to "self-consciousness" in the lower levels, sometimes animals seem to come close to achieving this but it may just look that way and not really be so. I have no idea. I strongly agree with what you say in your next paragraph just below this comment.

I don't know if any of that is true, but the ideas resonate more with me than pure materialistic interpretations that somehow place "Nature" as an absolute and try to make human beings no different than an ant or a fart (though in many cases, observing how so many humans behave, this might not seem far from the truth).

Also there are things that ONLY exist with human beings:

self-awareness, creative imagination, logic, abstract thought, ability to form concepts

While some animals "may" possess these abilities, without the ability to form language and communicate with words (another KEY human ability), there is just no way to know. Some animals "may" communicate telepathically.

A world with ONLY animals (and all levels below), missing ONLY the human species, would be a world of raw Nature. No buildings, no roads, no art, NO IDEAS, no marked effects created out in the environment, no marked creativity, etc.

There would be things like beaver's dams, ant hills, gopher holes, spider webs, birds nests, etc. Probably a beaver's dam would come the closest to a marked created effect and a spider web or the markings on certain animals or fish would be the closest things to artwork.

IDEAS ONLY EXIST IN AND TO A THINKING MIND. There is no "idea" out there anywhere, not seperate from a thinking mind that entertains the "idea". The ability to "think" enters in at the stage where human beings enter into the mix of life. That is visibly apparent and obvious. Yes, ideas "might" exist in the head of some animal or in the energy pattern of some atom, BUT without the ability to COMMUNICATE via CONCEPTS, there is no way to know. It is all moot without conceptual thinking - and ONLY humans display that unique and interesting ability.

There IS something very different about human beings and their self-awareness. Whether this is "better" or "worse", or "good" or "bad", well, that is a judgment. Again, only thinking minds make judgments. I leave that up to the reader.

Gadfly - It was good to TR0 with the ostrich eyes in your logo after such a long absense. Thanks for explaining about chakras which I read on a Dull Old Fart posting a couple of weeks ago and asked Vin to make some comments on. I find your above post excellent and commented above on several key paragraphs. My biggest win reading this was when I consideed whether or not human beings could be symbiots contributing to the highest 2 or 3 levels. I got some change in perception from contemplating this concept.
Can you say anything about a current living person being connected up to a family of beings or a specific time era or geographic area which the currently living person is attracted to?
Lkwdblds

 

[finishedman]

IDEAS ONLY EXIST IN AND TO A THINKING MIND. There is no "idea" out there anywhere, not seperate from a thinking mind that entertains the "idea". The ability to "think" enters in at the stage where human beings enter into the mix of life. That is visibly apparent and obvious. Yes, ideas "might" exist in the head of some animal or in the energy pattern of some atom, BUT without the ability to COMMUNICATE via CONCEPTS, there is no way to know. It is all moot without conceptual thinking - and ONLY humans display that unique and interesting ability.

All this does is sharpen the intellect with its use causing debates and arguments regarding what you can get out of it it for your own egoistic purposes. Using it to bring about a permanent change in yourself offered up by some fly by night spiritualist and his lofty promises of powerful high levels of consciousness is BS.

There IS something very different about human beings and their self-awareness. Whether this is "better" or "worse", or "good" or "bad", well, that is a judgment. Again, only thinking minds make judgments. I leave that up to the reader.

Tell me why you swing between opposites. You think that's a natural thing to do, but it is not. If I tell you this is a better 'truth' where does that put you? It puts you where I tell you. It is not better.

 

[Gadfly]

Gadfly - It was good to TR0 with the ostrich eyes in your logo after such a long absense. Thanks for explaining about chakras which I read on a Dull Old Fart posting a couple of weeks ago and asked Vin to make some comments on. I find your above post excellent and commented above on several key paragraphs. My biggest win reading this was when I consideed whether or not human beings could be symbiots contributing to the highest 2 or 3 levels. I got some change in perception from contemplating this concept.

Can you say anything about a current living person being connected up to a family of beings or a specific time era or geographic area which the currently living person is attracted to?
Lkwdblds

Hey buddy! Yeah, about my being away, for me, I simply have allowed most attention on all things SCN to dissolve. I find very little interesting in the subject - as far as what is wrong with it. I also find very little need to talk about it (on an ego level). I realized a long time ago that a person is defined (limited) by WHAT and HOW one places his or her attention. Negative attention of ANY sort effects the person with the negative views. Also, there are SO MANY things wrong in the world; injustices, brutality, torture, violence, etc. While what goes on in SCN is nasty and mean and wrong (to me), there are also MANY worse sort of things going on in the world. I figured that if I was going to spend time and energy on anything, which I don't, I would pick something REALLY bad. I understand that the viewpoint of many people is defined by NEGATIVE experiences related to some area of life (in the case of this board, people with negative experiences with the C of S). The Russian communist revolution was a REACTION against brutality and unfairness of the Czars. The French revolution was a REACTION against the injustices of the Church and State. A woman is raped and becomes an active and avid "rape victim proponent". A young child, being the victim of child abuse, becomes an adult and takes up a campaign to enlighten others to the severity of the rampant problem with child sexual abuse. And on and on and on. For so many people, his or her reality is DEFINED by the very limited and unique set of personal NEGATIVE experiences. Thus are born critical boards of all sorts. And movements, campaigns, rebellions, protests. I am NOT saying that the views are not based on REAL problems and situations, but that from a view of spiritual advancement (Buddhist, Hindu), attachments of ALL sorts must be removed (let go of all concerns and stuck attention of any sort). Interestingly, there is an aspect of SCN auditing that aims to remove "stuck attention", but in a very covert way, the C of S also creates NEW stuck attention on PT goals and motivations (expand the Church, destroy enemies, etc).

As always, I enjoy and remain interested in how aspects of SCN tie into the overall picture of Man's desire to advance as a spiritual being.

I haven't read this stuff recently, but as best as I can recall, this is how I understand it.

While the human race is "generally" or "on average" at a certain evolutionary stage, ALL stages always exist to some degree. For example, all earlier stages from inanimate matter up through and including mobile life forms currently exist in abundance along with and right alongside conscious self-aware human beings. While you or me might not be aware of entities in the stages "higher" than us, supposedly they do exist, though not in large numbers "here". Beings such as Babaji, Meher Baba, members of the Great White Brotherhood, and various Ascended Masters, as the story goes, all exist to some degree on these "higher planes" of consciousness. (Yes FM, these are also "ideas", BUT as with any idea, the ideas may or may not refer accurately to existing things and conditions).

For more on the "hidden masters" and Great White Brotherhood, see:

http://www.greatdreams.com/masters/ascended-masters.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascended_master

The subject of the Chakras is interesting. Part of the theory involves the notion that each chakra or stage of evolution involves a specific "body" to "perceive" at THAT level (i.e. etheric body, astral body, causal body, etc). Apparently, we each actually exist to some degree at EACH level, although currently we are each focused primarily on THIS level. THis arrangement and balance between the chakras is different for every person. The goal of various mystical practices are to enable the practitioner to advance FASTER and to "open up" perception in these other realms. Supposedly, the evolution will occur regardless, but there are always those who desire to advance faster and those who have already advanced who are willing to help those who aspire to quicker change. THat's what they tell me anyways . . . .

Regarding your question, I think there are two parts. We each have affinity for different things. That includes the characteristics of each Chakra (and the beings highly related to each Chakra). For instance, about a year ago I wanted to experiment with "love" - unconditional unlimited love, as in the "Grace of God" type love. The idea of the "power of love" always rung true for me. Note: not common earthly "desire" love, but love along the lines of egoless aim to see others as the best they can be, happy, prosperous, healthy, doing well, etc. So, I did a bit of quick research of what sort of entities specialized in this energy - Jesus and some others. So, I basically "made up" meditation exercises to first contact entities with this "vibe", and then spent time interacting and wallowing in their energy fields - also I sort of aimed to "merge" with the entities' beingnesses. At one point, and this was a pretty intense exercise, I "contacted" and visualized "Jesus" (or some reasonable facsimile thereof), focused intently and intensely on this being, and merged with it, allowing all feeling and space to align, and gently intended and allowed the presence to "enter my Heart Chakra". My intention was to invite it "in", and to become something else, forever having it as a new component of "myself".

Some will read the above and say, "but it's all just in your imagination". Yes, but that is NOT a "bad" thing. Along the lines of SCN and other systems, the spirit is initial cause and spirit CREATES through something along the lines of imagination (i.e mock ups, postulates, etc). Human imagination can be viewed as a "lower component" of a higher spiritual ability. Also, within the framework of magick and many other esoteric practices, the imagination IS THE DOORWAY to other realities. The imagination is the "8" in ""8-8008". It is YOUR reality versus the current common evolutionary reality of MEST-consciousness.

I have always been attracted to the idea of advanced, selfless beings operating on the fringe to assist in Mankind's eventual and inevitable spiritual evolution. The existence of such an "evolution" and such entities may be true, or may not be true. Strangely, any person existing at the common average level of earth human consciousness would be UNABLE to perceive whether true or not. If true, then the IDEAS stated here relate to something substantial, and if not, the IDEAS are then simply fantasies and delusions. For me, I think there is more to the "imagination" than science or current knowledge understands, and also that imagination, as an ability, and as an ability that can be drilled and EXPANDED, is FAR MORE important than intellect, logic, reason, abstract thinking, etc. It involves a much different aspect of human consciousness and creativity. Imagination is also far more important than all the RESULTS of abstract thinking, logic and reasoning. In other words, what one does to expand and utilize his or her imagination has far greater ramifications than ALL of the mumblings, discussion, arguments and mental masturbation which parades through most discussion boards, colleges, debating societies, etc.

I used to be attracted to various past track entities and historical areas (i.e. Egypt), but I have aimed to "remain in present time" as the main factor, and to let go of ANY and ALL attention on the past (whether good or bad). But, it seems whatever energy or qualities you liked about these past times and peoples do still exist to some degree in various currently existing people and beings.

In SCN, Hubbard stresses removing the negative aspect of stuck attention. I think that the flip side (desire, out of control affinity) is just as "bad" when it comes to advancement. In the end, one must also dissolve all positive attachments and attractions if one is to truly "become free". That is my opinion. And as with anything, that might "work" for me, and might not "work" for others. Different people require different methods and approaches due to their differing makeup (experiences, tendencies, etc).

Lastly, in the end it is all about creating. In effect, when you find something that you LIKE and have affinity for, and place attention ON IT, you are CREATING IT. I suppose that really, it has more to do with YOU than with any of the people or things you find yourself attracted to.

Did I answer you questions to any degree?

 

[Gadfly]

Something like an orange having seeds and falling from a tree when ripe only to be eaten by a bear who then digest the orange and excretes the seeds at a different physical location is very indicative of some kind of substantial intellect working behind the scenes. This act of dissemination is very intricate and well thought out and strongly suggests analytical ability comming from some source.

Richard Dawkins, the avid atheist and neo-Darwinian proponent, would say that it ALL naturally evolved without any sort of intelligence or design of any form. Also, be careful not to INFER. There IS obvious ORGANIZATION. It seems to me that some "thought" lies behind it all, though I wouldn't call it "intellect" or "analytical ability". Obnosis. Look and view what is obvious, but be careful not to assume and infer hidden causes. Of course, entertain possibilites, enjoy theories, but in the end, really, I don't have a clue.

It sure seems intuitively that there are two or three stages of advancement above the level of human. My intuitve reaction is that the gap between stages is not as different as that between human and ant. I have nothing to base this on but only a gut feeling. If there are 3 levels, each with ant to human gaps, either humans are nearly totally insignificant or the top level would be higher than that of what religions conceive God to be.

Apparently the top level IS "God Consciousness". The seventh Chakra (Crown Chakra). The higher levels above "human" are NOT necessarily "physical". At least, not physical as you now know it to be.

Any system asserting animals and humans are "equal" is absurd to me too. I like the term symbiots. The first three levels of which you mention are symbiotic to the 4th level of humans. I have no idea if we are symbiots of the 2 or 3 levels higher than us. Maybe they "eat" us or use us as pets or arrange us into patterns to serve as artwork. What do you think Gadfly, would human beings be symbiots for the higher levels. My guess or gut feeling would be yes they are.

Eating only involves the physical form. If you are eaten by a lion, I doubt that your mental or spiritual aspects affect the lion in any way. But, the lion does not have these other aspects. To me, NO. All stages always exist concurrently. Think of it as 7 primary alternate dimensions, that are all related through the Kundalini channel that connects the Chakras. The MEST reality is only ONE of the seven realities, and that is the SIMPLE version. On this level, physical things "eat" other physical things. Regarding the mental, emotional, and spiritual levels, the "relationships" are quite different. Apparently, if you could observe through eyes of the "etheric body" you would "see" an entirely different reality and results of even what you call "eating". To make it even more complicated I have read that each Chakra has SEVEN variations within itself. Seven levels within seven levels. From a pure POSTULATE and CONSIDERATION viewpoint, even all of that exists ONLY because we each agree that it does. None of the mystical systems of Yoga seem to understand that it is entirely abritrary, and that ABOVE God Consciousness is letting it ALL GO.

My guess if that the first sentence above is true. As to "self-consciousness" in the lower levels, sometimes animals seem to come close to achieving this but it may just look that way and not really be so. I have no idea. I strongly agree with what you say in your next paragraph just below this comment.

I don't know if any of that is true, but the ideas resonate more with me than pure materialistic interpretations that somehow place "Nature" as an absolute and try to make human beings no different than an ant or a fart (though in many cases, observing how so many humans behave, this might not seem far from the truth).

Also there are things that ONLY exist with human beings:

self-awareness, creative imagination, logic, abstract thought, ability to form concepts

While some animals "may" possess these abilities, without the ability to form language and communicate with words (another KEY human ability), there is just no way to know. Some animals "may" communicate telepathically.

A world with ONLY animals (and all levels below), missing ONLY the human species, would be a world of raw Nature. No buildings, no roads, no art, NO IDEAS, no marked effects created out in the environment, no marked creativity, etc.

There would be things like beaver's dams, ant hills, gopher holes, spider webs, birds nests, etc. Probably a beaver's dam would come the closest to a marked created effect and a spider web or the markings on certain animals or fish would be the closest things to artwork.

Yes, obviously animals affect the environment to some degree, BUT, it seems to be largely "instinctual", a product of whatever drives animal evolution. It is NOT anything like conscious creativity. What beavers and spiders do does NOT involve consciously looking around, noticing resources, and making decisions to effect changes to aid survival. It is rote, never-changing, and not subject to alteration due to new information or feedback. Human consciousness IS the "new kid on the block" (for now).

 

[lkwdblds]

Snip.

I used to be attracted to various past track entities and historical areas (i.e. Egypt), but I have aimed to "remain in present time" as the main factor, and to let go of ANY and ALL attention on the past (whether good or bad). But, it seems whatever energy or qualities you liked about these past times and peoples do still exist to some degree in various currently existing people and beings.

In SCN, Hubbard stresses removing the negative aspect of stuck attention. I think that the flip side (desire, out of control affinity) is just as "bad" when it comes to advancement. In the end, one must also dissolve all positive attachments and attractions if one is to truly "become free". That is my opinion. And as with anything, that might "work" for me, and might not "work" for others. Different people require different methods and approaches due to their differing makeup (experiences, tendencies, etc).

Lastly, in the end it is all about creating. In effect, when you find something that you LIKE and have affinity for, and place attention ON IT, you are CREATING IT. I suppose that really, it has more to do with YOU than with any of the people or things you find yourself attracted to.

Did I answer you questions to any degree?

Gadfly - As you often do, you presented a lot of material for consideration. I tracked real well with you most of the way. When it came to the 2 or 3 levels higher than humans and I asked if humans were symbiots to these upper level beings and suggested maybe they "eat" us, I did not mean literally that they devoured our flesh. That is why I put the word eat in parenthesis.

I thought that since they were probably not usually connected to a body, maybe they could pervade our minds and snatch things from our minds and psyche's which "tasted good to them", again using tasting good to mean something not done by the taste buds of a body but meaning something that pleased their tastes. Perhaps, an upper level spirit could snatch a great symphony from Beethoven, for example, out of his mind and mock up playing it for himself (or itself?) in a very artistic private setting. That is the type of thing I had in mind.

I appreciate your remarks about not having one's attention fixed on past injustices which occured in one's life. I have felt many times that I should drop ESMB or at least drastically reduce the amount of time I spend here but every time I do this, I have a breakthrough and learn some major thing about Scientology or LRH which I find extremely informative and interesting. This just happened to me in a thread called "Did U engage in any squirrel practices? or something of the sort by HelluvaHoax. I had a real big win there which keeps me going on ESMB.

Your closing paragraphs did start answering my questions more directly. I have a concept that I had a life in late 18th century Vienna and was a bass singer in a troupe run by Emmanuel Shikaneder, a troupe that arrived in Vienna in 1788 and produced the famous opera, "The Magic Flute" in 1791 and continued on through the opening years of the 19th century. Since I was 19, my attention has been rivited on this time, place and group of people. I really enjoy learning more about the period and reliving various incidents. The whole thing could be just a figment of my imagination but even then, I am not ready to let go of my fixation on this era. If I let go of it, I fear it would leave a huge void in my life. Your comments that a person may be creating such a feeling much more so than the persona who were alive in that era was of help to me. Well, I'm glad you've returned to this board, even if it may be for only a short time.
Lakey

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Howdy all!

Hi Everybody, long time no see!

Yes, I would like to hear Vinnie's take on Chakras, too!