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On free will, fundamentalism and the workability of Scientology

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
First, a reminder: You are invited to a Feb. 8, 2015 Independent Scientology Back In Comm Event in South Africa

The following linked essay is very long and detailed. It is, however, well worth reading in full if one is interested in Independent Scientology, or at least the possible state of Independent Scientology in South Africa.

Scientologists back in comm:

On free will, fundamentalism and the workability of Scientology
https://backincomm.wordpress.com/20...mentalism-and-the-workability-of-scientology/

* * * * * BEGIN EXCERPT * * * * *

“Is Scientology really a workable system ?”.


My thesis and the central message of this article is that it IS, even though it is also riddled with many contradictions and portions that violate the most fundamental Human Rights . I found it to be highly workable through thousands of hours of application on hundreds of different public over a period of decades.



* * * * * END EXCERPT * * * * *
 
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lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
quote said:
* * * * * BEGIN EXCERPT * * * * *

“Is Scientology really a workable system ?”.


My thesis and the central message of this article is that it IS, even though it is also riddled with many contradictions and portions that violate the most fundamental Human Rights . I found it to be highly workable through thousands of hours of application on hundreds of different public over a period of decades.



* * * * * END EXCERPT * * * * *

Yes, $cientology is really a workable system, for what I too witnessed of people having thousands of hours of application, for decades.

It works in turning $cientologists into addictive slave loosing their mind, life, assets, family and critical mind in the hands of charlatans. It works.
But the saddest is that their mind is shaped in thinking they win and win and become powerful and more able while they decline.
 
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Edugui

Patron
I wonder if it is possible to someone here to confront the message instead of using escapes like sarcasm or cheap jokes.

I am sure there are.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
I wonder if it is possible to someone here to confront the message instead of using escapes like sarcasm or cheap jokes.

I am sure there are.

Hello,

No sarcasm at all! :no:

Reality! Sad reality!

Unfortunately, $cientology reality might be confused with dramatic comedy show and cheap joke.

Here is one - is it a cheap joke or reality ???

HubbardBirthday.jpg


* In the case the ''sarcasm'' that may be encountered on the message board is not appreciated - it can be reported to Billy Blowdown who handle it promptly. :confused2:


:)
 
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Veda

Sponsor
I wonder if it is possible to someone here to confront the message instead of using escapes like sarcasm or cheap jokes.

I am sure there are.

The answer is yes, but the message is not new.

It's a naïve expression of views that have been expressed, without the naiveté, years and, in some instances, decades earlier.

To the readers of BIC it's about as much as they can tolerate.


Read this and its links if you're curious. It will take you several hours at least.

It's an example of what was recognized long ago: http://exscn.net/content/view/178/105/index.html
 

Elronius of Marcabia

Silver Meritorious Patron
I wonder if it is possible to someone here to confront the message instead of using escapes like sarcasm or cheap jokes.

I am sure there are.

Easy if it was workable and the tech came first, the ethic and admin evolved from the use of the tech.

Be Do Have

Ethics Tech Admin

I think its called high in the middle on a personality test and thats
what the tech makes, ethically deluded and administratively barbaric cult.

So if you go back to fundamentals you will get the same result.

Do Do Do Do Do Do


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y
 

Edugui

Patron
I tried Dianetics. It took me off depression in about seven hours. Now I'm in boredom (2.5)

I find Dianetics to be the best way to release emotional charge, and releasing emotional charge, the best way to get a person better.

But somethings are pretty fucked up. In my local org you see some persons stuck in the Bridge unseeming to keep advancing, they don't say, but I guess it is because of money.

The books and lectures are crazily expensive, too. The Church does not really seem to care about you. If you don't have money you can't do anything. And there is an old woman there with more than 20 years in the Org. or something who is not Clear. And who cares.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
So you did Tone Scale training too, besides Dianetics. Was that the PTS/SP course?

Are you on staff now or doing courses now?
 

Edugui

Patron
i want to clean childhood garbage so my objective is to do co-auditing (dianetics) or Hubbard Professional Auditing Course or something, BUT you know I said I did cannabis 4 years and fluoxetine (Prozac) two months and a half so an admin girl told me to wait at least three more months OOOOORRR do the Purif.

The Purif from what I've reasearched is truly a genius and very nice thing BUT it costs 15,000 mexican pesos. An average professionists with 10 years experience earns some 17,000 a month, so imagine.

And my dilemma is to be in the church which I find it very attractive.... or find some indies and do the services there.

Oh no I did not do that training nor PTS/SP. I read Science Of Survival. The entire book is good but I found the first half of it to be reaaaaaaally great.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
i want to clean childhood garbage so my objective is to do co-auditing (dianetics) or Hubbard Professional Auditing Course or something, BUT you know I said I did cannabis 4 years and fluoxetine (Prozac) two months and a half so an admin girl told me to wait at least three more months OOOOORRR do the Purif.

The Purif from what I've reasearched is truly a genius and very nice thing BUT it costs 15,000 mexican pesos. An average professionists with 10 years experience earns some 17,000 a month, so imagine.

And my dilemma is to be in the church which I find it very attractive.... or find some indies and do the services there.

I don't know what research you've done to come to the conclusion that the Purif is genius. It's not. It's scientifically ludicrous. It's based on the disproven notion that most drugs are sequestered in fat for the long term. This is demonstrably false. THC does sequester in fat, but does not stay there for anything near the term that the Co$ claims. No other drug of abuse sequesters in fat. And even if they did, sweating in a sauna would not flush them out of the adipose tissue into the blood.

You need to look at the Narconon threads, and AnonyMary's websites.


One of the allegedly dangerous rituals, McHenry contends, is a sauna program that a New Life Retreat official told her had been scientifically shown to reduce or eliminate an addict’s drug cravings by flushing out residual drug toxins stored in the addict’s fatty tissues.


“No such scientific evidence exists,” the suit maintains. “NLR’s claims about the benefits of its sauna program ... are false and do not withstand scientific scrutiny.”


McHenry’s son spent up to five hours a day in the sauna at temperatures between 160 degrees and 180 degrees, the suit states, and no medical personnel oversaw him while he was undergoing the sauna program last year.

The excess levels of vitamins in the Purif put stress on your liver and kidneys, and this is exacerbated if you get dehydrated in the sauna. Someone with Hep B, C or D and / or cirrhosis of the liver from alcohol abuse and / or medical renal or hepatic insufficiency could die from it. Not only could, but actually have died from it.

If you want a layman's explanation of why the Purif is genius only if you're talking about a genius for bullshit, read this.

If you want a more technical explanation, I'm happy to provide it.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Hmm. Well, then, Edugui, I guess you should be talking to someone else here.

I did the OEC and ESTO class, through OT IV and was in Scientology for 9 years. I thought the whole thing was way too long, overcomplicated and the best stuff was at the lower levels. After that, it was all about paying heaps of money and a bunch of fairy tales of how you "need the next level"." To be honest, I had more gains from other places and if I could do those 9 years over again, I would have never even walked in for a personality test. It was a waste of time.

But of course, you are free to decide for yourself. The organization misses the concepts of compassion and love, so to me, it misses the entire concept of life altogether.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
And what about the testimonials of smells of drugs used years ago? And the gains?

Besides, the idea to purif. the body is... way older. In some indigenous cultures in what it is now Mexico, there is a ritual, the "Temazcal", which purpouse is to make you sweat...


Sorry, what is the "ESTO". I searched about OEC and found this

http://scientologyreviews.com/books/organization-executive-course-oec-volumes


There's a reason we don't use testimonials in real medicine. People who desperately want to get better, and look to what the people who are helping them expect them to say, will say all sorts of things.

What gains are you talking about? Because almost all Co$ gains are short-lived highs. A few people will quit drugs after Narconon. They do this at rates far below the rates of people who go into traditional rehab, and traditional rehab does not have all that great a record, either.

Don't confuse something that makes you feel good or recover from illness in one context to be a panacea. I use the Russian banya myself. It certainly helps recover from a cold - it both stimulates the immune system to respond to invaders more pre-emtively (there is a reason you get a fever in response to an infection - most infectious agents operate less efficinetly at the elevated temperature, and the immune system operates more efficiently) and it stimulates the circulatory system and T regulatory cells to more rapidly decrease T helper cell activity after the infection is over - most of the ill effects you feel from a cold are not the virus itself, but the result of a stimulated immune system.

But these positive effects in some cases (most of which are minor and transient - if the ancients had any real cures, would modern medicine have even been invented?) does NOT mean that Ron's goofy-assed 1940s level of understanding of toxicology mixed with his own diseased imaginings have any basis in reality when it comes to drug rehabilitation.
 

Edugui

Patron
So this implies that *all* persons who talked about gains from the Purif a) they were lying or exaggerating and b) that the mind or the spirit is capable of producing any effect just by suggestion. Interesting.

I would like to hear more about short term effects you talked about. And oh by the way, the "detox" is at the current fashion nowadays. I wonder if even that is all quackery.

And well, first of all, to have some gains from the Purif you have to have done some drugs. I know a person who didn't, and he did not have wins with it. But many other persons did have it. Not sure if you can really sweat all the little poisons in instant lunchs and that things.
 

Veda

Sponsor
I tried Dianetics. It took me off depression in about seven hours. Now I'm in boredom (2.5)

I find Dianetics to be the best way to release emotional charge, and releasing emotional charge, the best way to get a person better.

But somethings are pretty fucked up. In my local org you see some persons stuck in the Bridge unseeming to keep advancing, they don't say, but I guess it is because of money.

The books and lectures are crazily expensive, too. The Church does not really seem to care about you. If you don't have money you can't do anything. And there is an old woman there with more than 20 years in the Org. or something who is not Clear. And who cares.

Forgive me Edugui, I mistakenly thought you were commenting on the South African blog's latest article in some fashion.

Quickly reviewing your posts, I see that you're simply hoping to cure your personal difficulties through Scientology, but Scientology costs too much, etc.

At this point, you've probably received most of the available information regarding people, practicing some form of Scientology, outside of the organization, who might be accessible to you. There's not that much more that can be said that's likely to be important to you.

It appears that corporate Scientology doesn't not want you for staff or the Sea Org, because of your psychiatric drug background. It also seems to not have much interest in you as a "public" because you don't have much money. So consider yourself lucky in that way.

If you want to use a sauna and sweat, and get some physical exercise, then go ahead. You'll probably feel refreshed as a result. That's normal. The Purification RD itself is a hodgepodge of pseudo science. The good news is that you don't need to depend on Scientology to sweat and exercise. You can do that on your own or at a health club.

People around here are mostly still excited over the release of a new documentary film on Scientology, and that it will serve to inform the public and perhaps lead to changes that would be beneficial to others.

That probably wouldn't concern you since your interest in Scientology has to do only with its potential to alleviate your own particular personal difficulties.

Good luck on your search for answers to your problems.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Hi Edugui,

A good sweat is good for you, preferably from a workout. Then you get the blood and other vital organs functioning well. There are many testimonials from many other practices about exercise combined with good diet and healthy lifestyle. You are right about that.

But only certain things are sweated out. Radiation is not one of them and the Purif and Niacin have no effect whatsoever on radiation. That part is quackery. So are the mega-vitamins and oil replacement therapy. Some parts of the Purif program are actually bad for you.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
So this implies that *all* persons who talked about gains from the Purif a) they were lying or exaggerating and b) that the mind or the spirit is capable of producing any effect just by suggestion. Interesting.

I would like to hear more about short term effects you talked about. And oh by the way, the "detox" is at the current fashion nowadays. I wonder if even that is all quackery.

And well, first of all, to have some gains from the Purif you have to have done some drugs. I know a person who didn't, and he did not have wins with it. But many other persons did have it. Not sure if you can really sweat all the little poisons in instant lunchs and that things.

What "gains" are you talking about? In medicine, we have quantifiable outcomes.

Did they quit drugs? Did a troublesome symptom disappear?

Most importantly - did someone independent validate that they had the issue before the Purif and did not afterwards?

Here is a video of James Randi talking about Hubbard and more importantly, John Campbell, one of the early adherents of Dianetics, about his "cure" of Asthma.

[video=youtube;Oj-w09kpQcY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj-w09kpQcY[/video]

Start at about 2:30. Even though Campbell was "cured" of his Asthma, he still carried his inhaler around. That is why testimonial evidence is completely worthless in science.

People quit drugs all the time. People also make false connections all the time. My grandfather, an alcoholic of some 50 years duration, suddenly quit cold turkey in his early 70s. If he had been doing the Purif when he quit drugs, he would have attributed some or all of his success to that program, when in fact it was his own willpower and guilt feelings stemming from my grandmother's cancer diagnosis. He was ready. Likewise, many of the people who do the Purif are ready to quit drugs, and would quit anyway. The difference between them and those who quit cold turkey, is that they attribute all their "gain" to something that had little or nothing to do with their abstinence.

This is the same phenomenon that gives rise to superstitions. The athlete who was carrying a green hanky the day he hit a grand slam, and carries that hanky evermore for "good luck" is making the same correlation = causation mistake that those who look at the few success cases from the Purif as evidence that it works.

Medical research is designed to ferret out treatment effects from placebo or chance effects. So far the Purif has not shown any evidence that it works above the level expected by chance. You can't just cherry pick the people who had a "gain" of quitting on the Purif to "prove" it works. You have to look at it in the context of doing other things, or doing nothing. And given its biochemical implausibility, this is even more important in order to make sure you are not fooling yourself.

This leaves aside the issue of those who outright lie under the influence of the Co$, of course.

There are a few people who claim, and seem to have evidence, of quitting drugs after the Purif. The success rate on the Purif is hard to determine, but it appears that is no better than that for those who quit cold turkey.

It is easy to determine, however, that the death rate on the Purif is higher than that of the cold turkey method.
 

Edugui

Patron
You say that testimonials have no validity at all in Medicine, then you stablish the condition for them to have it. It is just a matter of statistic and applying Scientific Method.

A particular drug to be released, has to have shown more effectivity than a placebo.
 
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