On making the Scientology Purification Rundown safe and acceptable

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
That's the thing, betskand. A simple physical might not reveal all of the red flags for participating in something like this. The anecdote in the thread above I believe could be someone who died on the Purif. I think its happened more than once, and will happen again.

well the problem will be that if the niacin damages someone's liver it may be years for it to show, but when it does and the unfortunate person goes to the MDs for a cure and he or she might end up on a waiting list and be subject to all kinds of drug regimens to keep them alive and if they die, resy assured SoF and the rest will be screaming "iatrogenic death!!" because hey, the MDs didn't solve the problem.

The Purif is an unscientific piece of speculative fiction embossed with the "religious" seal of approval. In nearly forty years FORTY FUCKING YEARS , the Cofs has yet to manage one thorough scientific study that even begins to address any of the questions asked about it. Hubbard knew NOTHING of biological chemistry, he never studied it he had no access to research in it and he had no education in being able to theorize in the field. How does anyone with half a neuron possibly think that he could have developed something like the "purif" other than by the semi addled meanderings of a total poser? He did not know what he was talking about - unless anyone has the info on where he studied it and when.

How can any advocate the purif when the cofs has done NO follow up studies of 5 and 10 years of people who completed the purif? How come there are no studies of the death rate of purif grads? Causes of death? Statistical reviews?

When dweebs criticize real medicine based on the statistics - why is it that they can never quote the statistical; reviews of alternative science studies? Because they are never done.

it is very easy to claim a great success rate if you forget all the failures and dont count them.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
I will if you promise to take Lariam.

The Drug That Can Make You Kill
A common malaria drug has been linked to murders and suicides.

http://www.alternet.org/personal-health/drug-can-make-you-kill

Thank you. That's the kind of logically inept statement that exactly proves my point.

Medical interventions have a risk and a benefit.

Why would I take mefloquine? If I were at risk of contracting malaria. And not just malaria, but malaria that is resistant to chloroquine.

In other words, if I was traveling to any of the colored dots on this map:

zpq9990903710004.jpg


Now, when I was in Thailand, I used doxycyclene as my anti-malarial prophlylaxis, because even though side effects can include massive hypertension and Stevens-Johnson syndrome, those side effects are much rarer than contracting malaria in an endemic region. And if I had contracted malaria despite the doxycyclene? Well, look at the dots on Thailand. You bet your ass that I would have used mefloquine. Because the 1 in 10000 chance I'd develop serious neurological symptoms is nothing to the certainty of suffering I'd have faced with an active malaria infection that is resistant to the mainstay drug. Given the odds, I would not have wanted to fuck around with testing if my strain were actually resistant to chloroquine or not, I would have gone straight for the big guns.

And that brings up another point. Before we knew how well doxycyclene worked on preventing malaria, the risk benefit for mefloquine as a prophylactic was different. Risk is always mitigated by other drugs available to do the same job. And how do we compare them? With those pesky numbers, again. If you have a 1 in 10000 chance of severe neurological symptoms, but a 1 in 200 chance of developing malaria without the prophylaxis, what is the rational choice, here? You are 50 times more likely to contract malaria than develop the side effect in question. Go for the mefloquine. If, and only if, doxy were not an option, though. In that circumstance, you bet I'd have gone with mefloquine.

But doxy is an option, and that changes the risk benefit equation to the point where the Special Forces go with doxy for prophylaxis. But they still use mefloquine for treatment that evades doxy. Disease burden, context, and choices. That defines risk and benefit. Not Chicken Little pointing out the worst, rarest side effects possible and then going around yelling that the sky is going to fall on your head right now. Leave the NOW NOW NOW in the cult and learn how to analyze things rationally.

This is the heart of the matter. If you have a statistically safer option, you go with it, until it becomes clear that option isn't working. So your challenge once again shows how deeply ignorant of medicine you are. There are specific circumstances where, hell yes, I would take mefloquine. But right here, right now, in the last throes of winter in New England? Why the fuck would I? What would be the benefit? Of mefloquine or any other drug for a condition I don't have?

Your vaccines, on the other hand, protect you from diseases that you would almost certainly contract once or more in your lifetime without them. The risk benefit equation is skewed tremendously towards benefit, there.

In like manner, there is no proven clinical benefit, and no biochemical rationale for benefit in the Purif. None. It does not cure any condition you may have, and certainly not the ones it claims to. There is demonstrable risk of harm in specific pieces of it. Why, then would you ever use it? It would be exactly like me taking an anti-malarial in a New England winter - all risk of harm for absolutely no possible benefit.

Go ahead and exercise. Use a sauna in moderation. Take your RDAs of vitamins (even if you don't need them, it probably won't hurt you). Just don't overdo the sauna or the exercise or the vitamins - which is what the Purif demands. THAT is why it is dangerous.
 
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MissWog

Silver Meritorious Patron
I know we're off on a bit of a tangent here but I recently listened to this Radiolab production
http://www.upworthy.com/the-way-doc...fferent-from-the-way-their-patients-do?c=ufb1

It's 21 minutes long and I don't regret spending the time listening to it. I found it thought-provoking.
Thank you! Saved for kitchen time tomorrow.. 20min is perfect to empty the dishwasher and other little clean ups.. Or load the dishwasher and prep veggies.. I'm out of good stuff to listen too on NPR,here in the states, on the app.. I'm desperate for informative podcasts! If you have anything else I can learn from pls PM me links!
 

ethercat

Cat in flight
But wouldn't it be nice to know what the cherch provides to the PC to give to the doctor and what the doctor is suppose to examine/test for on the PC to give this A-OK to do the Purif?

MissWog, you might be interested in reading the Deposition of Lisa Robbins, MD, who acted as the "medical director" for Narconon of Georgia. Her duty was to examine the clients before they entered the Sauna Detox part of the Narconon program, which is almost identical to the Purif. (Actually, a medical director for a drug rehab in Georgia has other duties too which are assigned by the state, but Ms. Robbins was not told about them, nor apparently was she even told that she was the medical director for NNGa, but that gets more complicated...)

Her testimony about the exams she performed begins on page 6 of the PDF (pg 18 of the depo):
http://alley.ethercat.com/storage/10A28641/10A28641-2-2010-11-05-DepositionOfLisaRobbinsMD.pdf

Here is her website: http://www.robbinshealth.com/
 
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On making the Scientology Purification Rundown safe and acceptable.

From the Independent Scientology blog Possibly Helpful Advice. Despite the title that will be objectionable to some, the article has some good analysis.

On making the Purification Rundown safe and acceptable
http://possiblyhelpfuladvice.com/?p=16802

Excerpt:
I was the first public paying person to buy the purif at the Seattle Mission, when it was still a Dianetic Counseling Group, the DCG of Seattle. I was 19. How I had the funds to buy it is a for another day, a story within itself. But I did. I was 19 for holy sakes! I was a teenager. I was suicidal because I was gay. Scientology was going to fix me. I had done some drugs in high school, mostly pot, alcohol, and possibly the forbidden LSD (which would ultimately keep me out of the Sea Org, thank god!). It is 1980, I am 19, I was on the purif for over 30 days. I was taking 5000 mlg of niacin. We kept waiting for the rash to go away. I had an incident in down town Seattle where my back went out, I collapsed in the middle of the street. Thank god for my twin, the guy who did it with me, who joined me a few days into the process. I wonder where he is now?
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
I was the first public paying person to buy the purif at the Seattle Mission, when it was still a Dianetic Counseling Group, the DCG of Seattle. I was 19. How I had the funds to buy it is a for another day, a story within itself. But I did. I was 19 for holy sakes! I was a teenager. I was suicidal because I was gay. Scientology was going to fix me. I had done some drugs in high school, mostly pot, alcohol, and possibly the forbidden LSD (which would ultimately keep me out of the Sea Org, thank god!). It is 1980, I am 19, I was on the purif for over 30 days. I was taking 5000 mlg of niacin. We kept waiting for the rash to go away. I had an incident in down town Seattle where my back went out, I collapsed in the middle of the street. Thank god for my twin, the guy who did it with me, who joined me a few days into the process. I wonder where he is now?

Welcome [email protected]

That incident sound a bit scary. Did you go for medical observation or testing after it occurred? Also I thought Seattle would have had an org by the time had rolled around. :unsure: Or was the DCG a separate but perhaps off shoot from the org?

The back going out and you collapsing makes me wonder if it was related to pain or 'spasm' of a kidney or liver. Did you ever find out?
 

MissWog

Silver Meritorious Patron
MissWog, you might be interested in reading the Deposition of Lisa Robbins, MD, who acted as the "medical director" for Narconon of Georgia. Her duty was to examine the clients before they entered the Sauna Detox part of the Narconon program, which is almost identical to the Purif. (Actually, a medical director for a drug rehab in Georgia has other duties too which are assigned by the state, but Ms. Robbins was not told about them, nor apparently was she even told that she was the medical director for NNGa, but that gets more complicated...)

Her testimony about the exams she performed begins on page 6 of the PDF (pg 118 of the depo):
http://alley.ethercat.com/storage/10A28641/10A28641-2-2010-11-05-DepositionOfLisaRobbinsMD.pdf

Here is her website: http://www.robbinshealth.com/
Well I think I just found my new doctor to get those scripts for addys and xanny! I knew if I asked around enough $cientology would give me a referral... Now, how do I get to Georgia and back without anyone noticing?

All jokes aside.. This is a great example of an M.D. gone wrong.. spare me the crusade of holistic medicine.. She couldn't hack it to just be a GP with appreciative dedicated patients and no established practice wanted her... Dr. Robbins is Holistic and WE DO NOT OFFER EMERGENCY MEDICIAL TREATMENT but..
No Insurance No Problem!
E-Visits now available to current patients for only $75
First office visit is $210. Our private pay follow-up basic visits start at only $125. Comprehensive visits are $250. See our list of rates under Services Fees. All rates are subject to change without notice.

Oh oh and that Holistic better than Big Pharma nonsense..
"We pride ourselves on providing patients with personalized holistic medical care and high-quality supplements. We believe in treating the whole patient, not just a symptom."

yeah.. She is directly selling bullshit pills for her own profit to her patients.

There is always a bad apple in any bunch.. Leave it to $cn & narConon to find her! Just cashing a check!

Services offered in our building:

Upstairs
Acupuncture
Allergy Evaluation & Treatment
Bio-Identical Hormone Replacement
Body Composition Analysis
Chinese Medical Therapy
Comprehensive Physical Examination
Diabetic Screening
Holistic Medicine
Homeopathy
Immigration Examination
Internal Medicine
Integrative & Functional Medicine
Nutritional Therapy
Oral Chelation
Preventative Medicine
Weight Loss Programs

Treatment for the following:
Environment Allergies
Insomnia
Holistic treatment for chronic illnesses
Fibromyalgia
Thyroid Disorders


Don't forget to make an appointment for more great services Downstairs Including:
Candida Wellness Programs
Chiropractic
Detox Therapies
Drug Screening (Pre-employment)
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Foot Detox Baths
Infrared Sauna
Natural Skin Care Products
Holistic Products
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Skin Care Services
Wellness Programs

We proudly foster an environment of diversity and welcome the LGBT community members.


I give up.. I'm a little angry after reading her depo and stupid people will go see her and fall into the trap of IT IS EASY BEING IGNORANT" everything else I have to say is ugly and angry.. So I should stop typing now..hit submit!
 

secretiveoldfag

Silver Meritorious Patron
That's a broad statement SOF. Not with cancer. Not with heart disease. Not with TB. Not with HIV. Not with RA. Tendonitis, yes. And where are many of these errors occurring? In ICUs and other over-worked wards with very sick patients.

It's hard to prove when someone would have died without treatment. And iatrogenic death is not up there with heart disease or cancer, it's down there with gunshots and automobile accidents. The problem with the studies not done by the CDC is that they include any serious medical error as a cause of death if the patient eventually died. That's stacking the deck and bad science.

Admitted cancer and heart disease are potentially fatal conditions where doctors can and do help. But drug-resistant TB is a medically-induced menace. Resistance to the complete range of effective drugs was a predictable result of the testing methods used by the medical profession after WWII.

Self-healing is probably most true with elderly patients with chronic problems. If they go near a doctor, bingo! diuretics, heart pills, X-rays, ECGs and lots of stress and worry, and then the diuretics don't agree with the heart medication and their BP is all over the place, and they are hospitalised and suddenly their kidneys fail and two weeks later they are dead. I know of four cases where this was the clinical pattern. Yes they were old people who would have died sooner or later but they were not ill when they first contacted a doctor for a minor problem and died only a few weeks after their first treatment. When my own mother was first launched on the same downward spiral I pulled her forcibly out of the hospital system and she made a full recovery.

Even if doctor-induced death is down there with gunshot and automobile accidents - and I accept it is not easy to quantify exactly - it is not a minor and negligible cause of death. It is artificial and totally avoidable.


From the Wikipedia article on Ivan Ilich 1926-2002

In his Medical Nemesis, first published in 1975, also known as Limits to Medicine, Illich subjected contemporary Western medicine to detailed attack. He argued that the medicalization in recent decades of so many of life's vicissitudes—birth and death, for example—frequently caused more harm than good and rendered many people in effect lifelong patients. He marshalled a body of statistics to show what he considered the shocking extent of post-operative side-effects and drug-induced illness in advanced industrial society. He introduced to a wider public the notion of iatrogenic disease which had been scientifically established a century earlier by British nurse Florence Nightingale (1820–1910). Others have since voiced similar views, but none so trenchantly, perhaps, as Illich.
 
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Welcome [email protected]

That incident sound a bit scary. Did you go for medical observation or testing after it occurred? Also I thought Seattle would have had an org by the time had rolled around. :unsure: Or was the DCG a separate but perhaps off shoot from the org?

The back going out and you collapsing makes me wonder if it was related to pain or 'spasm' of a kidney or liver. Did you ever find out?
The Org was a couple of blocks away. Of course I did not go for medical observation or testing. I was just "running out" my toxins. The DCG was not the Org. The Org was a few blocks away. The DCG was a front group.
 

MissWog

Silver Meritorious Patron
I was the first public paying person to buy the purif at the Seattle Mission, when it was still a Dianetic Counseling Group, the DCG of Seattle. I was 19. How I had the funds to buy it is a for another day, a story within itself. But I did. I was 19 for holy sakes! I was a teenager. I was suicidal because I was gay. Scientology was going to fix me. I had done some drugs in high school, mostly pot, alcohol, and possibly the forbidden LSD (which would ultimately keep me out of the Sea Org, thank god!). It is 1980, I am 19, I was on the purif for over 30 days. I was taking 5000 mlg of niacin. We kept waiting for the rash to go away. I had an incident in down town Seattle where my back went out, I collapsed in the middle of the street. Thank god for my twin, the guy who did it with me, who joined me a few days into the process. I wonder where he is now?
Hello 25!!!!
Thank you for posting here!
 
Thank you! It took me 23 years out of the cult to realize I was OK. It took me that long to take a critical look, I never looked. It's an evil cult. I am embarrassed to have ever been a part of the hoax, to have participated in the evil, and I was a zealot. I did awful things. I was mean. I practiced disconnection. This is not my natural instinct, not my way. I am a laid back person, but not so when I was a devotee to Scientology.
 

anonomog

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thank you to real medical science and technology.

[video=youtube;UyECCMdlVFo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyECCMdlVFo[/video]

Hey Scientology, when you can show me real gains and not some "I feel better, my space is huge" facebook testimonials, I may start listening to you.

Maybe, perhaps, someday.....nah.
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
Thank you! It took me 23 years out of the cult to realize I was OK. It took me that long to take a critical look, I never looked. It's an evil cult. I am embarrassed to have ever been a part of the hoax, to have participated in the evil, and I was a zealot. I did awful things. I was mean. I practiced disconnection. This is not my natural instinct, not my way. I am a laid back person, but not so when I was a devotee to Scientology.

Welcome to esmb. I think we've all done things we regret or are ashamed of - whether or not we were ever part of the cult. We're glad you're here.

Blanky
 

JGB

Patron
JGB,
please understand that I am trying to understand where you are coming from. All the snark and sarcasm aside I really just don't believe this Purif is healthy..so help prove me wrong :yes:

If I, or anyone, wanted to do the Purif would I go to my personal General Practitioner or would I go to a CoS approved physician?

If I go to my personal GP, what information about the Purif would I provide her so she would understand the Purif program and Purif regimen that I was asking her to give me the all clear to participate in?

If my doctor does approve this program for me what documentation do I provide to the CoS and who verifies the authenticity of the documentation before allowing me to begin the Purif Rundown?

Any data, docs or even anecdotal info you can provide would be much appreciated! I see you feel passionately about this and I do not mean to disrespect your point of view..I just need more help in understanding.

It's been almost 20 years since I've done anything with the C of S so I do not know.

I did my first Purif in 1982. I got a standard physical exam from a M.D. and gave it to the person that was handling me. I do not know who okays it.

If you are considering doing the purif I would look for a facility that is not tied with the C of S. There were some holistic centers offering it in the 90s but I do not know now.

This is a simple program but it is not an easy program. You should do it with a twin (buddy) so you can help each other when needed.
When I did my first Purif I did not have a twin and I think it would have helped a lot.

The church did not have a sauna so I did my exercises & sauna at the racket club that I belonged to at the time. I would tell anyone who would be in the sauna what I was doing and if I went unconscious to call the doc. Some times the guys would freak out seeing me being all red from the niacin flush!

I have to admit there were times I wanted to quit because I was working 10 hrs. a day and trying to get in 3 hrs. of sauna time. I was glad for the week ends so I could sleep in. This was my first purif and it took me 68 days to do.

I was very surprised at the end result and loved it.

The 2nd time I did the purif I was on it for 28 days and the 3rd time only 16 days.

As for docs for your GP. I don't have any. Just give him/her all the data from the book Clear Body Clear Mind and see if it is okay for you to do. GLTU
 
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JGB

Patron
Thank you. That's the kind of logically inept statement that exactly proves my point.

Medical interventions have a risk and a benefit.

Why would I take mefloquine? If I were at risk of contracting malaria. And not just malaria, but malaria that is resistant to chloroquine.

In other words, if I was traveling to any of the colored dots on this map:

zpq9990903710004.jpg


Now, when I was in Thailand, I used doxycyclene as my anti-malarial prophlylaxis, because even though side effects can include massive hypertension and Stevens-Johnson syndrome, those side effects are much rarer than contracting malaria in an endemic region. And if I had contracted malaria despite the doxycyclene? Well, look at the dots on Thailand. You bet your ass that I would have used mefloquine. Because the 1 in 10000 chance I'd develop serious neurological symptoms is nothing to the certainty of suffering I'd have faced with an active malaria infection that is resistant to the mainstay drug. Given the odds, I would not have wanted to fuck around with testing if my strain were actually resistant to chloroquine or not, I would have gone straight for the big guns.

And that brings up another point. Before we knew how well doxycyclene worked on preventing malaria, the risk benefit for mefloquine as a prophylactic was different. Risk is always mitigated by other drugs available to do the same job. And how do we compare them? With those pesky numbers, again. If you have a 1 in 10000 chance of severe neurological symptoms, but a 1 in 200 chance of developing malaria without the prophylaxis, what is the rational choice, here? You are 50 times more likely to contract malaria than develop the side effect in question. Go for the mefloquine. If, and only if, doxy were not an option, though. In that circumstance, you bet I'd have gone with mefloquine.

But doxy is an option, and that changes the risk benefit equation to the point where the Special Forces go with doxy for prophylaxis. But they still use mefloquine for treatment that evades doxy. Disease burden, context, and choices. That defines risk and benefit. Not Chicken Little pointing out the worst, rarest side effects possible and then going around yelling that the sky is going to fall on your head right now. Leave the NOW NOW NOW in the cult and learn how to analyze things rationally.

This is the heart of the matter. If you have a statistically safer option, you go with it, until it becomes clear that option isn't working. So your challenge once again shows how deeply ignorant of medicine you are. There are specific circumstances where, hell yes, I would take mefloquine. But right here, right now, in the last throes of winter in New England? Why the fuck would I? What would be the benefit? Of mefloquine or any other drug for a condition I don't have?

Your vaccines, on the other hand, protect you from diseases that you would almost certainly contract once or more in your lifetime without them. The risk benefit equation is skewed tremendously towards benefit, there.

In like manner, there is no proven clinical benefit, and no biochemical rationale for benefit in the Purif. None. It does not cure any condition you may have, and certainly not the ones it claims to. There is demonstrable risk of harm in specific pieces of it. Why, then would you ever use it? It would be exactly like me taking an anti-malarial in a New England winter - all risk of harm for absolutely no possible benefit.

Go ahead and exercise. Use a sauna in moderation. Take your RDAs of vitamins (even if you don't need them, it probably won't hurt you). Just don't overdo the sauna or the exercise or the vitamins - which is what the Purif demands. THAT is why it is dangerous.

I was mocking your blind faith to the drug industry that you are so much in love with. I choose Larium because it is the latest & greatest drug to cause harm. But there you go again blah blah blah about malaria pills. By the way I did do a tour in Nam and the malaria pills the Army wanted me to take kept making me sick. At first I thought it was the heat and humidity. After two weeks of feeling like crap I stopped taking the pills. Next day I felt better. 2nd day I was myself again and never took those pills again.

The purif is not a way of life. It is a program to get rid of toxins so the pre clear can have an easier time to recall when in session. And it worked!
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

I was very surprised at the end result and loved it.

Would it be intrusive to ask what other Scientology actions, or levels, RDs, etc., you did, and what was your opinion of each of those?

The 2nd time I did the purif I was on it for 28 days and the 3rd time only 16 days.

-snip-

How is it that you had to do it more than once?
 
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