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On Ron

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't really see a problem in explaining how intricate biological structures have come about. Lots of natural processes generate enormously complex things. Evolution does not explain how organisms that reproduce with variation and inheritance came about at all, in the first place, but it's pretty convincing in explaining how very minimal ones can gradually evolve into creatures as intricate as humans.

Abiogenesis is a puzzle, but not a paradox. There's no obvious reason why it can't happen, though it's obviously not such a common thing, or the Earth would presumably be full of all different kinds of quite unrelated life. It's a very interesting question, how life can have gotten going, but I can't see any reason to think that there has to be intelligent design.

As a matter of fact I'm not an atheist, either. I happen to believe in creation — just not that the ancient myth recorded in Genesis is a literally accurate depiction of how it went down. Aside from finding Intelligent Design scientifically dubious, I'm also skeptical of it on theological grounds, because it seems to me that Intelligent Design always really means Unintelligent Design: that the God who invented the laws of nature somehow wasn't able to design a machine that would work without the operator having to keep nursing it along; that the artist who created the universe left a lot clumsy fingerprints on the canvas; that the infinite mind that easily keeps track of every particle in the cosmos has to plot things out in crude outline like engineers who do their thinking with a few pounds of meat.

Good post. How about a third possibility - evolution does happen, but in the context of a feedback loop between the evolving organism and a field of living intelligence which enables it to make adaptive choices very much more quickly than would otherwise be the case - evolution plus, in other words?

That would explain how, for example, insects sprayed with a new (to them) variant of insecticide are able to evolve a mechanism to render the chemical harmless within a month (two weeks even) by producing an enzyme which breaks a crucial chemical bond in the insecticide.
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
Good post. How about a third possibility - evolution does happen, but in the context of a feedback loop between the evolving organism and a field of living intelligence which enables it to make adaptive choices very much more quickly than would otherwise be the case - evolution plus, in other words?

That would explain how, for example, insects sprayed with a new (to them) variant of insecticide are able to evolve a mechanism to render the chemical harmless within a month (two weeks even) by producing an enzyme which breaks a crucial chemical bond in the insecticide.
That sounds a little like Rupert Sheldrake's 'Morphic Resonance'.
 

phenomanon

Canyon
Outstanding why finding!!!

The reason Scientology doesn't work: Insects.

I have seen this with my own eyes, so I can verify that it is true. A couple days ago there was a fly in my Solo Auditing room and I sent theta com to him in the theta universe to buzz off because he was creating distractions to standard tech being delivered. In the theta universe he cut my com and told me to "go fucking buzz off yourself!" This was down tone, so I told him to go pick up a body and I would audit him. Then I started an ethics folder for him (next lifetime) and sent a KR to it about the entheta he had put on my lines.

Then I smiled to myself, knowing that the tech had worked.



ps: If anyone has any tips, I could use some help on all the ethics files I have created for various insects and ants around my house. The KRs and ethics folders are so freaking small it's really hard to write the ant's name on it. Any suggestions would be welcome. ML, HH

I've been told by a Ron's Org person that they have an "Ethics Central" in the Galactic Org. ( Is that the big Org board in the sky?)
Perhaps you could send them there.
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
Thanks, no I haven't but I did read "Seven experiments that could change the world" a while back.
That's one of Sheldrakes I haven't read. The book in which he describes morphic resonance (I seem to have lost it) made an impression on me but unfortunately I have a head like a sieve and most of what I read I don't retain unfortunately.
 

David C Gibbons

Ex-Scientology Peon
I too want to thank the OP for the reminder of the PR image of Hubbard's Scientology still accepted, or at least not openly disputed, by those still within the zone of influence of Scientology.

As for myself, I went from complete acceptance of the PR to pained tolerance of the image presented to Scientologists over my 30+ years of my involvement (up to and including the Sea Org) with the organization.

For me, a realization of the continuous violations of common decency, the hollowness of the claims of virtue, and the constant threat of personal bankruptcy finally overcame my fear of disconnection and the loss of my marriage.

To the OP: I wonder what price you would have to to pay if you abandoned your support of Scientology? How does that thought make you feel? For me, I felt bad about that which I lost, but I also felt so much better about my life once I was no longer beholden to Scientology. I am free to live my own life now. Can you say the same?
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
Good post. How about a third possibility - evolution does happen, but in the context of a feedback loop between the evolving organism and a field of living intelligence which enables it to make adaptive choices very much more quickly than would otherwise be the case - evolution plus, in other words?

Maybe some currently unknown field, or something, will turn out to be important in the world. But the problem I have with how this kind of theory seems to work in practice is that it's really more of an anti-theory. If I ask what kinds of laws this 'field of living intelligence' might obey, and how it would work to do whatever it did, to affect ordinary matter, then I tend not to get answers, but refusals to answer. The specification that it's a field 'of living intelligence' seems mainly to mean is that I'm not supposed to ask those questions. Such a field obeys no laws, and it does not work through any particular mechanism.

Well, that sucks, in my opinion. While it's perfectly reasonable to imagine that there are things we don't yet know about the world, I think there's one basic thing that we should really have learned by now. Nothing just happens; everything that happens, happens somehow. There's always an answer to the question, "How does it work?"

If a 'field of living intelligence' did somehow exist and do things, it would surely do them somehow. There would be mechanisms and laws. And if whatever wonder it is that the FLI explains can be explained with mechanisms and rules, then it's a serious question whether maybe the currently known mechanisms and rules might actually do the job by themselves, without the addition of an FLI.

That would explain how, for example, insects sprayed with a new (to them) variant of insecticide are able to evolve a mechanism to render the chemical harmless within a month (two weeks even) by producing an enzyme which breaks a crucial chemical bond in the insecticide.

Evolution often works precisely because it is not particularly efficient. If most members of a species produce some enzyme, it's normal that a few of them also produce a slightly different enzyme, because biochemistry is messy, and evolution is sloppy. So if an inspect species has evolved immunity to some insecticides of a certain kind, then it is quite likely that some of these insects may also happen, by individual variation, to possess a slightly different version of the enzyme, a version that makes them immune to some other insecticides of a similar kind as well. If the species has not yet encountered this other insecticide, then there will have been no reason for the trait of immunity to it to proliferate, and so the immunity trait will be rare.

So the new insecticide will initially kill almost all of this kind of insect. But then, within a short space of time, one notices that it does not seem to kill them any more. That's rapid evolution. But what has actually happened?

What happens quickly is not that the insects develop new biochemistry, or even that their larvae do in the next generation. What happens quickly is that the non-immune insects die, until only the initially rare immune individuals have survived. Without competition, they proliferate. Very soon, there are immune bugs all over. The species has developed immunity to the new insecticide very quickly, but it was not a case of rapid R&D on the part of the insects. Nothing really surprising has actually occurred: there were always a few immune bugs there, the new insecticide killed all the others, and the few immune ones then spread like crazy. There is no need to postulate any kind of intelligent field.

This is the kind of way that evolution mostly works, if not always. It is not any kind of atheistic rival for an intelligent designer; it is not a life force; it is not smart. It's really dumb, and it works like a hammer. Variation, selection, proliferation; rinse, lather, and repeat.
 

Kemist

Patron with Honors
Good post. How about a third possibility - evolution does happen, but in the context of a feedback loop between the evolving organism and a field of living intelligence which enables it to make adaptive choices very much more quickly than would otherwise be the case - evolution plus, in other words?

That would explain how, for example, insects sprayed with a new (to them) variant of insecticide are able to evolve a mechanism to render the chemical harmless within a month (two weeks even) by producing an enzyme which breaks a crucial chemical bond in the insecticide.

You don't have many generations within two weeks, even if we're speaking of insects. This looks more like a gene that was already there in the population and suddenly became a survival trait. Or a gene that was already there and got expressed in presence of a stimulus. Or perhaps demethylated in a second generation because of that stimulus (epigenetics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics, the way certain genes are activated / deactivated according to environmental conditions between generations is another quite interesting subject if you are interested in evolutionary genetics).

Living things have very powerful and resourceful active mechanisms to get rid of both endogenous and exogenous toxins. It does not matter to your liver, for instance, whether the substance that it becomes in contact with is natural and familiar or new and synthetic. Liver enzymes are not specific to a single substance but to what we chemists call "functional groups", molecular building blocks (bonding patterns) if you will, which can be found in several different chemicals.

Sometimes enzymes and their substrate are pictured as lock and key, but that is very far from accurate. It's more one soft blob with electrical charges in certain position which sort-of-fits into another soft blob with kind-of adequately positioned complementary charges. So a small, normally neutral, variation in structure can transform an enzyme which is not efficient against a new toxin into one that works quite well, while conserving its initial function. Those neutral variation can and do exist in the population because they are not detrimental to the individuals which have them.
 
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This is NOT OK !!!!

Gold Meritorious Patron
Come on you guys!

Don't you know about the mushrooms?

From outer space?

That are the cause of our consciousness?

Get with it people!

[video=youtube;AIMPX5aGCu8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIMPX5aGCu8&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/video]
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
Eh, this looks suspiciously like my collection :p

Do you have The Ancestor's Tale ? It's one of my favorite, as it is full of very cool information on unusual and little-known species like the rotifer which can absorb and integrate a distant species' DNA in its own genome.
No Kemist, that one seems to have escaped me. Sounds interesting. Apart from the scientific aspect of his work in genetics, some of which I'm not ashamed to admit goes right over my head, I like his constant repudiation of organised religion and the rationale he uses to argue his case.
 
Dammit! Pay attention strativarius!


Which is precisely the reason I asked.

Here's a pic of a few books of mine. They're not meant to impress you as I know it would take more that a bunch of stoopid books to do that, but to let you know I take this subject v. seriously.

View attachment 7656

Edit: But no more questions yr honour.

You can't be taking the subject seriously.

Dawkins is a joke.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
People can be very quick to compare Scientology to some hidden standard of rightness but they haven't really approached the subject most of them. Not really. We have here a man who spent his free life trying to help people and certainly not least that the man was LRH. So keep that point in if you care to because he was actually very special.

Kind regards.

Well, you may know I am considered too soft/reasonable on Scn. I tend to make more allowances than some might. But even so, I can't really give this op a 100% free pass. Hubbard created stuff like freeloader debts, referred to Ex SO staff as "DBs", overboarded people...the list goes on.

He did spend a lot of time developing Dn and Scn and seems to have had confidence in and hopes for it. But he also turned on his friends and his followers. At best, I'd say he is a mixed bag but you know, I don't want to say that because he hurt a lot of people.

He seems to have been like a really little kid. All smiles when things going the way he wanted, tantrums when not. Ya gotta really wonder about a man who locks up a 4 year old in a chain locker.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
You can't be taking the subject seriously.

Dawkins is a joke.

The Anabaptist Jacques



:yes:

I can't read Dawkins, he tries too hard for me ... I can read Chris Hitchens all day.

It's the strangest thing (considering the subject that he wrote so beautifully and with such passion on) but to me, Chris Hitchens was the perfect example of a truly spiritual person, one of the more spiritually advanced people I have ever read or observed.

The way he dealt with his imminent death was humbling.

I'll always miss him.

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks but in how it thinks"

Christopher Hitchens 1949-2011.

 


:yes:

I can't read Dawkins, he tries too hard for me ... I can read Chris Hitchens all day.

It's the strangest thing (considering the subject that he wrote so beautifully and with such passion on) but to me, Chris Hitchens was the perfect example of a truly spiritual person, one of the more spiritually advanced people I have ever read or observed.

The way he dealt with his imminent death was humbling. I miss him.

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks but in how it thinks"

Christopher Hitchens 1949-2011.


Yeah, I miss him too.

But I wouldn't call him spiritual in the individual sense.

But spiritual in his hope for mankind.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 
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