One of the Saddest Things About Scientology....

Xenu's Boyfriend

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The other day I was watching a YouTube video where Brian Culkin suggests that Scientology as an organization in many ways is still stuck in 1962.

It made me think that one of the saddest things about Scientology, and what will ultimately lead to their undoing, is that they simply cannot and refuse to change.

As far as I know, LRH made no provision for change. There is nothing in the vast literature, there is no HCO bulletin that says, "If the church sustains consistent criticism on any particular issue, to the extent that it alienates and causes a lack of enrollment or seriously effects fundraising efforts, we must continue to stay true to the basic tenets of Scientology while making adjustments to ensure the life of the church at all costs..."

(Or maybe he did and a certain Tasmanian Troll destroyed it!)

Anyway, I remember reading that at some point LRH was impressed with Ray Kroc's business model for McDonalds, and created the Orgs and Missions with the idea of "franchising" Scientology. This was probably a great idea financially, the only problem is he left one thing out of the business model - the capacity for change.

When you look at McDonald's, their menu is different around the world. They have a special potato burger in India that is different from the veggie burger served in Germany. In Australia you can order Vegemite with your English Muffin. In Japan you can order an "EBI Fillet" which is basically a shrimp Big Mac. McDonald's in Egypt serves the McArabia - a pita sandwich with lamb or chicken, and on and on.

My point is McDonald's knows that one menu is not going to work for the whole world, and that if it wants to continue to be relevant, an organization has to evolve. It's too bad that LRH never had the idea for a board of directors or a Scientology "congress" that the President or leader would have to be accountable to - things might have been very different.

For example, that fact that the church continues to be homophobic (in Hollywood, for God's sake!) is so counterintuitive to its desire to make money, given the fact that professional gay people, very often, have lots of it. (Let me be clear, I know that there are many who don't.) But until more gay people begin to adopt, there is a large group of us, specifically gay men without children who live in big cities, who might be willing to spend their money on Scientology if it wasn't common knowledge that "the church" will try to change you or might humiliate you one day because of your sexuality. Major source of revenue, but they'll never see any of it.

What if there was an oversight or steering committee that decided to finally put an end to disconnection? People would be able to socialize with non-Scientologist family members and ex-Scientologists and even bring them to events without censure or fear of reprisal.

They would then make the price of auditing more reasonable and affordable (in other words, they would stop being so goddamned greedy!), and would do away with the Hole, the RPF and all Sec Checks.

The Sea Org would be a 10 year contract, renewable, and people could build families with proper opportunity to spent time with their children. The profanity and emotional violence through the organization would stop, and anyone engaging in physical violence would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Work days would end a specific time, regardless of whether goals were achieved. There would be no more knowledge reports, and an eventual phasing out of the Potential Trouble Source material.

All workers would be paid minimum wage and would be given regular holidays off and Sundays. If someone wants to leave the church or the Sea Org, they can leave freely, and return at a later date if they left on good terms. No freeloader debt.

Auditing would exist, without the motivation of making money but of truly helping people. There would be no OT levels and the name Xenu would never be mentioned again. It would be agreed that at some point LRH lost his mind when he created the OT levels, that they are a delusional fantasy and undermine the church's authority in the eyes of the public.

The only goal would be to go "clear", and going clear would be redefined. Being declared "clear" wouldn't have anything to do with perfection or cause over matter, it would be a state of consciousness where one takes full responsibility for how they effect others and choose to see the impact of their choices on the world around them. In other words, it would be a commitment one made to how they lived their life from now on rather than an actual spiritual state or achievement.

A formal apologize would be made to Lisa McPherson's surviving relatives and a building in Clearwater would be named in her honor - dedicated to mental health. A olive branch would be extended to psychiatrists, specifically those who don't work to overmedicate their patients and who seem willing to create a world that is free of pain and dedicated to peace.

Even as I write this, I wonder - if all these things were taking away, maybe it wouldn't be Scientology at all anymore, which makes me think that Scientology is really just the brain child of a man who had, perhaps, a few good ideas but eventually descended into madness (or was mad from the beginning) and finally paranoid schizophrenia. Perhaps all these aspects of Scientology that I'm modifying or taking away are what makes up the religion and it isn't Scientology without them.

However, my final thought is that the church was foolish not to listen to Marty Rathbun and to accept his leadership. If there was a way out, it was Marty. He might have truly lead things in a new direction and implemented some of the things I'm describing here. But we'll never know, because they eventually wore him down, and he had real enthusiasm and belief at one point. He was their Sunshine Boy once, but eventually the light went out.

Ultimately, the church is going to die because it will go extinct, like the dinosaurs. In a world of iPhones, iPads and great technological feats and spiritual and psychological breakthroughs, I believe that people will grow more and more impatient with Scientology's fear-based approach and will simply walk away.

As for me, I'm counting the days....
 
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Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
[O]ne of the saddest things about Scientology, and what will ultimately lead to their undoing, is that they simply cannot and refuse to change.

As far as I know, LRH made no provision for change. There is nothing in the vast literature, there is no HCO bulletin that says, "If the church sustains consistent criticism on any particular issue, to the extent that it alienates and causes a lack of enrollment or seriously effects fundraising efforts, we must continue to stay true to the basic tenets of Scientology while making adjustments to ensure the life of the church at all costs..."

...

When you look at McDonald's, their menu is different around the world. They have a special potato burger in India that is different from the veggie burger served in Germany. In Australia you can order Vegemite with your English Muffin. In Japan you can order an "EBI Fillet" which is basically a shrimp Big Mac. McDonald's in Egypt serves the McArabia - a pita sandwich with lamb or chicken, and on and on.

[List of intelligent policies that Scientology might adopt, if it were as capable of flexibility as McDonalds.]

This is insightful, yet paradoxical. And it's an example of a general type of message I've often seen from exes: the analysis of how Scientology could have been executed much more intelligently, so that it could have done much better.

I think that all those points are true but misplaced. They are premised on the assumption that there exists a real, coherent core to Scientology, that offers more value to people than other beliefs and practices.

The core of McDonalds is a sound business model. People really do want reliably decent fast food at a reasonable price; deliver that and you will prosper and deserve it. You can still screw up your business if you get a lot of little things wrong, though. So it makes sense to analyze a basically sound business like McDonalds by looking at the details it gets wrong or right. And if you're used to the assumption that businesses are basically sound, you get used to thinking that all they have to do in order to thrive is stop doing dumb things and get a few of the bigger details right.

But with scams it's not like that. A scam is a trick and a trap, and that means that it's Backwards Day all the time. The scam looks superficially like a real business, because that's the scam — it's posing as a real undertaking. So it looks as though you can analyze all its practices as if they were trying to achieve normal business purposes; but most of them are really there for other reasons. Staff are treated horribly, for instance, unless they're in on the scam, because decently treated people would twig to the fraud.

McDonalds can be very flexible, because its core isn't burgers but fast food and you can change a lot of details while keeping the core; but Scientology can't afford to be flexible, any more than a soap bubble can afford to take a few jabs. Engrams don't exist, there is no Clear, there is no OT, and auditing is a Model T pretending it's a Porsche (mostly by pricing). So as Bill has put it, there is no foundation to Scientology. There is no sound core business. If you remove all the actively evil parts of Scientology, even what's left is nothing but a lot of improvised bits stuck together at Hubbard's whim, and if you change one you'll just keep on changing until there's nothing left. As soon as you allow any changes at all, the slippery slope goes right down to the bottom.

Auditing is the best thing Scientology offers, but auditing doesn't really achieve enough lasting change in most people's lives, especially for the amount of time it consumes, for it to compete on a level playing field with other forms of therapy. That's why after fifty years it still hasn't been adopted en masse by 'wog' counselors, who are ideologically open-minded, work in a competitive industry, and could easily learn auditing if they wished. If Scientology staff were well-rested and treated respectfully, and paid well enough for self-respect, then they'd be counseling professionals. And that would be terrible, for Scientology, because counseling professionals aren't impressed by Scientology. So Scientology staff have to be crippled with stupid conditions. It's the only way to Keep Scientology Working.

And so it goes, I think, for most of what the CofS does and has done. In other words, I'm afraid this is what I think:
f all these things were taken away ... it wouldn't be Scientology at all anymore ... Scientology is really just the brain child of a man who had, perhaps, a few good ideas but eventually descended into madness (or was mad from the beginning) .... all these [perverse] aspects of Scientology ... are what makes up the religion and it isn't Scientology without them.
 
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Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
This is insightful, yet paradoxical. And it's an example of a general type of message I've often seen from exes: the analysis of how Scientology could have been executed much more intelligently, so that it could have done much better.


But with scams it's not like that. A scam is a trick and a trap, and that means that it's Backwards Day all the time. The scam looks superficially like a real business, because that's the scam — it's posing as a real undertaking. So it looks as though you can analyze all its practices as if they were trying to achieve normal business purposes; but most of them are really there for other reasons. Staff are treated horribly, for instance, unless they're in on the scam, because decently treated people would twig to the fraud.

Student, thank you for your thoughtful response. I really love what you wrote here and your clarification of what a scam is versus a legitimate business. It still brings me to the question: did LRH deliberately create Scientology and Dianetics just to scam people? Has it helped no one? Was it always completely useless, or when Dianetics was on the bestseller list in the 1950's, were some people genuinely excited by what they found in Hubbard's teachings? I've read posts here where people described being "blown away" by Dianetics the first time they read it.

First of all, full disclosure: I'm not an ex and I'm never been in the church. I haven't even read Dianetics, and I barely made it through my "personality test". Perhaps that makes what I've written even worse in your eyes, or explains my ignorance. I'm glad that you broke things down above, because I think there is a temptation for many of us on the outside to still think that there is a core to Scientology, somewhere, if you did deep enough. The thought that there is nothing there is staggering given the money and power they have amassed and wielded over others.

I'm going to post Brian Culkin's testimonial which is what I was originally responding to - taking his criticism and creating a "what if" scenario. He argues that there are some good things in Scientology overshadowed by the evil the organization perpetrates and he compares it to other religions. This is not to justify my post but to clarify what inspired me. Truthfully, I see now I was being facetious, because ultimately I know damn well that the church would never agree to any of the things I mentioned. I'm just amazed at the fact that they are so tone-deaf to how the world perceives them, while they continue to drive themselves off a cliff.

Again, I appreciate your points here. I'm curious to know what other's think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R31Ea2FjKhE
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
I'm also curious what others think, and their opinions should have more weight than mine. I was never in, either; I'm just a spectator. To some extent that may give me a clearer view of some things, so I post here in case my perspective is sometimes useful (and because the issue of coherence interests me just now so I like thinking out loud about it). I can also be way off base with things. I certainly didn't mean to call your view bad. Especially for an outsider, it's a natural one. You see this fifty-year-old organization, that has played such a big part in some people's lives, and you think, Why the heck are they doing all these dumb things? So much of Scientology is just so obviously dumb, when seen from outside. But then you see that it has lasted, and that it has sucked in some smart people for decades. So you wonder, Is there some tremendously valuable kernel in Scientology that has made up for all these little stupidities? Is Scientology a rough diamond that just needs a good polishing to really shine? But after looking and listening and asking, you see so little sign of anything that great, that instead you start asking, Are all these things really just dumb, or is there a method in the madness? And for me that's the resolution, that Scientology isn't any rough diamond, but it isn't really dumb. It's just not what it seems. There may be real cheese in the trap, but we're not talking Roquefort. It's mostly Velveeta. You can buy better cheese off the shelf, and leave Hubbard's trap alone. Most of the seemingly dumb details of Scientology are about hiding that fact.
 

secretiveoldfag

Silver Meritorious Patron
I don't find this sad or a great pity. I would say thank goodness this vehicle for evil cannot adapt to different situations and remain as valid to modern society as it was in the 1960s (if it ever was) and become as valid to different cultures as it was once in the USA.

Imagine what we would face if there were indeed 15 million active Scientologists with churches in India, Egypt, Germany, the UK, Canada, Ghana, Japan, New Zealand.

Such schemes including most religions cannot adapt because they are at heart irrational and invented. Change the story and you do not have a modern more practical and effective version of the same thing but a different story.

Scripture is scripture for a very good reason.
 

HelluvaHoax!

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..

Originally Posted By Xenu's Boyfriend

I'm not an ex and I'm never been in the church.


I was never in, either; I'm just a spectator.


Me too. Despite having been in the Sea Org and audited up to OT VII, I was likewise never in Scientology.

Yeah, all that apparently happened, but I was actually sleep
[STRIKE]walking[/STRIKE] bridging at the time.
 

Freeminds

Bitter defrocked apostate
. . .It still brings me to the question: did LRH deliberately create Scientology and Dianetics just to scam people?. . .

To ask if Dianetics was meant to help people, or to scam people indicates a misunderstanding.

What L Ron Hubbard did, he did to address his own needs and shortcomings. It was never about other people. I'm not convinced that LRH actually understood that other people were people, with their own hopes and fears, etc. To him, other people were playthings and patsies.

In some of his deeds, LRH was addressing his need for adulation. In others, he was addressing his need for money. In yet more, he was trying to erase the shame of his failure in the US Navy by creating an environment where he could be a senior officer in a navy that didn't reject him; and as a writer, he created a microcosm where everybody he met would adore everything he wrote.

It was all about Ron; a deeply disturbed individual who never received what he really needed, nor understood his condition. He exhibited a Smörgåsbord of mental illnesses and inadequacies that tortured him all his life... trying to understand his motivation from a starting point as a rational person isn't going to deliver a full understanding of why.

"Just to scam people"? No... LRH may have derived some enjoyment from hoodwinking people, but he didn't want to be a rich, reviled scammer. To be thought of as a criminal would have undermined his need for admiration. What Hubbard recognised that he needed, though, was money. Lots of it. For that reason, there was a scam... but it could never be just a scam. The fantasist that was LRH was much more complex than a mere tax-dodging pseudoreligionist amassing money as a means of keeping score.

Virtually everything bad you've ever read about L Ron Hubbard is true. I've never seen any evidence that he abused the children he had waiting on him in hot pants... as for the rest: he was a piece of shit.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
<snipped>

XBF, you have some interesting thoughts. They remind me of the occasional "Reform The Church" threads that crop up from time to time, $cientologists still trying to make the cult go right ... an interesting piece of indoctrination per KSW. Apologies, better hours and pay, MR in charge (WTF), relabeling auditing, play around with a few policies, sorry but it sounds like P.R. to me.

I agree Elcon's $cientology is stuck in a static bubble, how else does one control and manipulate those trapped in it? Cults don't survive sunlight.

Lcon's cult is just that, a cult, a mind control cult, it's not a religion anymore than a torture chamber is Disney Land. As far as auditing goes, it's psychological hypnotic dissociation: http://www.neurosymptoms.org/dissociative-symptoms/4533053148

The point is to close down Elcon's monstrosity, provide safety and compassion for people to recover and hopefully regain their lives, reunite with friends and loved ones, not empower it to suck in more people.
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
To ask if Dianetics was meant to help people, or to scam people indicates a misunderstanding.

What L Ron Hubbard did, he did to address his own needs and shortcomings. It was never about other people. I'm not convinced that LRH actually understood that other people were people, with their own hopes and fears, etc. To him, other people were playthings and patsies.

In some of his deeds, LRH was addressing his need for adulation. In others, he was addressing his need for money. In yet more, he was trying to erase the shame of his failure in the US Navy by creating an environment where he could be a senior officer in a navy that didn't reject him; and as a writer, he created a microcosm where everybody he met would adore everything he wrote.

It was all about Ron; a deeply disturbed individual who never received what he really needed, nor understood his condition. He exhibited a Smörgåsbord of mental illnesses and inadequacies that tortured him all his life... trying to understand his motivation from a starting point as a rational person isn't going to deliver a full understanding of why.

"Just to scam people"? No... LRH may have derived some enjoyment from hoodwinking people, but he didn't want to be a rich, reviled scammer. To be thought of as a criminal would have undermined his need for admiration. What Hubbard recognised that he needed, though, was money. Lots of it. For that reason, there was a scam... but it could never be just a scam. The fantasist that was LRH was much more complex than a mere tax-dodging pseudoreligionist amassing money as a means of keeping score.

Virtually everything bad you've ever read about L Ron Hubbard is true. I've never seen any evidence that he abused the children he had waiting on him in hot pants... as for the rest: he was a piece of shit.

Great analysis. Thank you.
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
XBF, you have some interesting thoughts. They remind me of the occasional "Reform The Church" threads that crop up from time to time, $cientologists still trying to make the cult go right ... an interesting piece of indoctrination per KSW. Apologies, better hours and pay, MR in charge (WTF), relabeling auditing, play around with a few policies, sorry but it sounds like P.R. to me.

I agree Elcon's $cientology is stuck in a static bubble, how else does one control and manipulate those trapped in it? Cults don't survive sunlight.

Lcon's cult is just that, a cult, a mind control cult, it's not a religion anymore than a torture chamber is Disney Land. As far as auditing goes, it's psychological hypnotic dissociation: http://www.neurosymptoms.org/dissociative-symptoms/4533053148

The point is to close down Elcon's monstrosity, provide safety and compassion for people to recover and hopefully regain their lives, reunite with friends and loved ones, not empower it to suck in more people.


Yes! I am glad you all are saying this. It's funny, as much as I know about Scientology and learned over the years, sometimes you still need someone to knock the kool-aid glass out of your hand before you take another sip.
 

oneonewasaracecar

Gold Meritorious Patron
^^ Very true. I've never quite heard it put that way, but you are right.

Every facet of Scientology is a different facet of his narcissistic personality.
 

hpm1999

Patron with Honors
However, my final thought is that the church was foolish not to listen to Marty Rathbun and to accept his leadership. If there was a way out, it was Marty. He might have truly lead things in a new direction and implemented some of the things I'm describing here. But we'll never know, because they eventually wore him down, and he had real enthusiasm and belief at one point. He was their Sunshine Boy once, but eventually the light went out.


As for me, I'm counting the days....
Xenu
Nice post- you are correct in details but wrong in the larger view. First you are assuming, that Like McDonalds, CO$ has a product. But suppose McDonalds had a splashy add campaign and beautiful restaurants- and gleaming kitchens. But what if the burgers they sold were not made with beef (cow) but dog meat (which they advertised as beef). And what if the dog meat contained bacteria that if eaten over and over caused mortal infections? It would not matter if they changed from hamburger buns to pita or called the infected dog meat shrimp. The product is not there and never has been.:duh:

But I needn't speak only of that- I had a good shake of my head with regards to your comment on Marty Rathbun- which I found to be rubbish. Marty Rathbun pictures himself as some type of Luther (as he has convinced Mark Bunker one of my heroes).:omg: That analogy holds up only if Martin Luther had spent his entire priestly career leading the inquisition in Spain torturing Protestant Heretics and had converted to Protestantism ONLY when the Pope threw HIM in prison and began to torture him! No Marty Rathbun ONLY left when the machine that he assisted DM in creating was turned on him. I have scant sympathy for MR (excepting the persecution of his wife). He ONLY left CO$, I posit because DM turned on him. The idea that he would reform, or thought about reforming CO$ is rubbish as well. He only thought about it because of his 8 months in the hole. Had that not happened MR would be leading the charge and probably trolling this space attempting to put together puzzle pieces and disconnect those post here from their loved ones. I submit that Marty Rathbun was sitting at the right hand of Lucifer, Mike Rinder at the left hand- and only when the black angel turned on them did they get "religion". :angry:

Don't mistake my post as an attack on you, btw, ESMB is a REAL exchange of ideas- it is just that the posits in your post are misguided especially as regards MR.
 
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iHateDuplicity

Patron with Honors
One point I've seen brought up again and again on this board by Cof$ and Hubbard apologists is "well did it not help anyone?" as though this is a criteria to judge Cof$ by. It's not. There are very basic, common sense principles in the lower levels of the Cof$'s services which will help anyone who is looking for help. Hubbard blatantly plagiarized these principles throughout the years that Dn and Scn were "being developed" and then claimed he alone had discovered these things. In regards auditing, there is the placebo effect. I don't know what the actual percentages are but Hubbard himself said it was as high as 20% who will claim to be helped by anything, even if you hit them over the head with "hammer therapy."

The Cof$ has been, is and always will be about money and control. There is not something else wonderful and great behind these control mechanisms. There is just the desire for money and control. When you take these things away from the Cof$, you are left with no reason for its existence. And I for one hope that this happens much sooner than later, for the sake of those who are being conned and lied to right this very minute.
 

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
L Ron Hubbard viewed people as "objects" hence the drill - screaming at ashtrays!! One of the biggest clues in Scientology!

Scientology is stuck in an incident of long duration - it is swinging at windmills and has more "scientology created" enemies than any other Organization on the planet. It is PTS Type III by its own definition and definitely a Suppressive Group that betrays EVERYONE and hurts them beyond belief.

It is disguised as a "help" group but all it does is DESTROY. Just look at the individuals you know that are still in Scientology. They REFUSE TO LOOK - which is against all of the teachings of L Ron Hubbard. The policies give you the delusion that they help people - but look at the results!!

I did an inventory of each person I knew in Scientology and here were the individual statistics:

1. Suicide
2. Early Death
3. Bankruptcy
4. Foreclosures
5. Divorce
6. Will not LOOK and cannot think for themselves but they THINK they are self-determined. Delusional and idealistic without looking at the facts of Scientology.

L Ron Hubbard knew exactly what he was doing. Scientology failed for him as well and he died a recluse hiding in a trailer and bat shit crazy!! He was the biggest con man of this century!!
 

Rene Descartes

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hubbard applied this part of the non-existence formula to a win

Find Out What is Needed and Wanted

Hubbard found out that what is needed and wanted is what he had to offer. He did this with pure knowingness. He did not use any vias. He did not have to apply the "what is true for you" adage. He didn't have to do anything other than to know. Know is the highest point on the Know to Mytery Scale.

He did not have to convince himself that others needed and wanted what he had to offer because once a person has to be convinced he has hit bottom.

So Hubbard knew that what was needed and wanted is what he has to offer.

So Hubbard then put out comm lines and made himself known and then he prepared to deliver.

And now there are many others in the world (about 55,000, 8 million on the average) who are picking up the torch and preparing to deliver and are delivering that which Hubbard knew that other needed and wanted.

And they too (the 55,000, 8 million on the average) know that what others need and want is what Hubbard has offered up.

Q.E.D.

Rd00
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
One point I've seen brought up again and again on this board by Cof$ and Hubbard apologists is "well did it not help anyone?" as though this is a criteria to judge Cof$ by. It's not. There are very basic, common sense principles in the lower levels of the Cof$'s services which will help anyone who is looking for help. Hubbard blatantly plagiarized these principles throughout the years that Dn and Scn were "being developed" and then claimed he alone had discovered these things. In regards auditing, there is the placebo effect. I don't know what the actual percentages are but Hubbard himself said it was as high as 20% who will claim to be helped by anything, even if you hit them over the head with "hammer therapy."

The Cof$ has been, is and always will be about money and control. There is not something else wonderful and great behind these control mechanisms. There is just the desire for money and control. When you take these things away from the Cof$, you are left with no reason for its existence. And I for one hope that this happens much sooner than later, for the sake of those who are being conned and lied to right this very minute.

That is a variation on the "well, at least Mussolini made the trains run on time" or "at least we had law and order under Stalin" themes.

And re. the PBO effect, in depression, it can be up to 60% of the anti-depressant drug effect over the short term.
 
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hpm1999

Patron with Honors
One point I've seen brought up again and again on this board by Cof$ and Hubbard apologists is "well did it not help anyone?" as though this is a criteria to judge Cof$ by. It's not. There are very basic, common sense principles in the lower levels of the Cof$'s services which will help anyone who is looking for help. Hubbard blatantly plagiarized these principles throughout the years that Dn and Scn were "being developed" and then claimed he alone had discovered these things. In regards auditing, there is the placebo effect. I don't know what the actual percentages are but Hubbard himself said it was as high as 20% who will claim to be helped by anything, even if you hit them over the head with "hammer therapy."

The Cof$ has been, is and always will be about money and control. There is not something else wonderful and great behind these control mechanisms. There is just the desire for money and control. When you take these things away from the Cof$, you are left with no reason for its existence. And I for one hope that this happens much sooner than later, for the sake of those who are being conned and lied to right this very minute.

My favorite quote which I will repeat until banned from the board by Emma is from Jefferson Hawkins:
"it take an exquisite piece of cheese to make an excellent mouse trap"
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
Jeff Hawkins said:
"It takes an exquisite piece of cheese to make an excellent mouse trap."

Jeff's awfully smart, so I don't want to say this is wrong; and indeed I think that in a way it is right. But I don't think that the 'exquisite cheese' in the Scientology mousetrap is that 'the tech' really helped people some fantastic amount. As far as really helping people is concerned, I think the cheese is more like Velveeta, or Kraft cheddar at best. It's ordinary stuff that can be had elsewhere much cheaper.

In one way I have no basis for saying this, since I was never in and have never even known any Scientologists personally. But I do have a viewpoint that brings a bit of a different kind of authority. I've read a lot of accounts of what people say they've gotten out of Scientology, and I've also seen a lot of people who were never in Scientology at all. From that perspective, what I've seen is that some people may have had fantastic epiphanies in Scientology, but earnest seekers who spend years in seeking can have fantastic epiphanies just from walking in the woods. Some people may have had less fantastic but still tangible benefits; but hundreds of hours of serious therapy normally do produce tangible benefits.

People who spent their youth in the Scientology bubble may know better than I do just what can be gotten from Scientology, but I'm not sure they really know what can be gotten outside. They compare themselves before and after Scientology, and see an improvement, but I don't think they're taking it enough into account, that they're comparing themselves young and mature. The real question is how they look after Scientology, compared to how they would have looked at the same age, if they'd never gotten into Scientology.

I'm just not seeing many signs that the Scientology cheese was really so exquisite, except in the sense of being a cunningly alluring bait.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
SoT, I agree. The cheese is not that exquisite.

However, the vast majority of people who got sucked into Scientology were not connoisseurs of very good cheese prior to stumbling into Scientology.

Also, most Scientologists became Scientologists when they were young, inexperienced, and seeking something that was missing in their lives or were facing difficulties. Afer all, when is the last time you heard of a professionally accomplished, 50-year-old person with a stable home life taking a communications course and going, "Eureka!" Other than dentists, of course. :)

For the most part, young people fell prey to plain vanilla cultic baloney that is notoriously successful in making people stay in groups. Initially, they are seduced and trapped by peer pressure, love bombing, positive reinforcement, group think, promises unfairly extracted, and an understandable desire to follow through on one's promises.

And as all Scientologists learn, agreements have tremendous power.
 
Here's my 2 cents. I was in scn for 26 years, in the S.O. for 14. In theory, scn wont change because it can't, because it says right in the policies, dont change this stuff. We were convinced that the tech works if applied, no matter when, where or to whom. This may or may not be the case because despite the rule to not change anything, DM has changed tons of stuff. So maybe there used to be something to this things back in the day, but definitely no longer.

As one poster noted, hubbard did not come up with all this stuff himself. At saint hill back in the day, there was like, 20 - 30 super smart folks figuring all this out, then he put his name on everything. Study tech? he stole it from a couple of teachers. The dynamics? An expanded version of Confucius' concentric circles, and the list goes on.

I personally think there are some good parts, hidden nuggets that have helped me in life. However, they have nothing to do with auditing or anything processy. The small things I took away from scn are rules for living; like the honor code, most of the way to happiness, work for a living, etc.

So if it were up to me, I would abolish the central church, known here as the CO$ and give it all the the independents. I think there should be some kind of guiding board to handle disputes, but I don't know how to guarantee it doesnt become corrupt. XBF mentioned in the OP, hubbard should have left some kind of governing board, so a single person wasn't in charge, but he did. He left a whole set of checks and balances with rtc, cos and cst having equal power and spheres of responsibility, but DM destroyed it so he could be the reigning pope.

And so, the whole thing is collapsing. I dont know if it is because it broke it's own rules, or because as most here believe, that it was a bunch of crap to begin with and is now meeting it's rightful demise. Either way, I will continue to sit on the side with my popcorn, and watch the show. :drama:
 
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