Org income drop in 2012?

RolandRB

Rest in Peace
I am thinking that there will be a catastrophic drop in income from the Orgs in 2012 as people boycott Flag and don't do much in their local Orgs and although it might pick up in 2013 then 2012 is going to be a difficult year just to keep the advanced Orgs and the Ideal Orgs running. Has anyone got any inside information on this?
 

Freeminds

Bitter defrocked apostate
The orgs have always been run on a shoestring, doing things on the cheap or not at all. Failing to pay staff their $50 per week. Failing even to maintain a stock of toilet paper. Failing to pay their utility bills for so long that they actually end up paying additional fees when they get a disconnection visit, and so on...

The funny thing is, the orgs have survived for so many years on the knife-edge of bankruptcy that they won't actually recognise that there is a problem. We've already seen staff having to sit in their cars because they can't afford to heat their building, or using cellphones because the telephone company has disconnected their land lines.

Doing things on the cheap is 100% standard Hubbard tech. It was LRH himself who wrote the policy about never paying bills promptly. In one sense it makes the business quite robust, because it maintains liquid cash reserves for as long as humanly (thetanly?) possible. In another sense, it does a lot of harm to Scientology's veneer of prosperity and respectability; too many creditors have had to take them to court, and too many of them refuse to do business with the cult ever again. Word gets around! Scientology orgs are on a 'cash in advance' basis with most businesses in their neighbourhoods, now.

Any business that's on the skids has to cut back on the luxuries, and few businesses have ever been as thoroughly devoid of comfort or luxury as the customer-facing orgs of the Scientology cult. That keeps them staggering on for quite a long time, but only through emergency donations from long-time Scientology victims. With virtually no 'raw meat' to become the donors of the future, you have to wonder how long the charade can continue.

This doesn't pose a problem for the Midget, of course. At least, not in the short term. He's sitting on all the cash that was sent up-lines in previous years, although that seems to be reserved for gifts for celebrities, and out-of-court settlements.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
The orgs have always been run on a shoestring, doing things on the cheap or not at all. Failing to pay staff their $50 per week. Failing even to maintain a stock of toilet paper. Failing to pay their utility bills for so long that they actually end up paying additional fees when they get a disconnection visit, and so on...

The funny thing is, the orgs have survived for so many years on the knife-edge of bankruptcy that they won't actually recognise that there is a problem. We've already seen staff having to sit in their cars because they can't afford to heat their building, or using cellphones because the telephone company has disconnected their land lines.

Doing things on the cheap is 100% standard Hubbard tech. It was LRH himself who wrote the policy about never paying bills promptly. In one sense it makes the business quite robust, because it maintains liquid cash reserves for as long as humanly (thetanly?) possible. In another sense, it does a lot of harm to Scientology's veneer of prosperity and respectability; too many creditors have had to take them to court, and too many of them refuse to do business with the cult ever again. Word gets around! Scientology orgs are on a 'cash in advance' basis with most businesses in their neighbourhoods, now.

Any business that's on the skids has to cut back on the luxuries, and few businesses have ever been as thoroughly devoid of comfort or luxury as the customer-facing orgs of the Scientology cult. That keeps them staggering on for quite a long time, but only through emergency donations from long-time Scientology victims. With virtually no 'raw meat' to become the donors of the future, you have to wonder how long the charade can continue.

This doesn't pose a problem for the Midget, of course. At least, not in the short term. He's sitting on all the cash that was sent up-lines in previous years, although that seems to be reserved for gifts for celebrities, and out-of-court settlements.

Some years ago the data chief [ Ms Woodward?] came out and reported that cash/ bills for the entire class V network had crossed [= insolvent] in very roughly 2003. In 2001 the ARIS survey had 54,000 scientologists in the US. By 2008 this was 25,000. Note there is a + or - error of 20,000. In 2008 anons started protesting, 2009 Marty started his blog, 2012 Debby Cook's mail sent out. So do the math :)

Note that Marty or Mike has commented that the only reason for Idle Orgs
is so that DM can give some good stats/news at events. Sounds plausible to me.
 

GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
I suspect that to Slappy Dave, running the orgs is just a pain in the ass, something that has to be done to maintain some sort of veneer to keep up the fund raising operation. Also, from everything I have read here and elsewhere on the web, from his point of view, the Cof$ would be perfect if there were absolutely no other people involved, it was all him. Bottom line ... I suspect that his goal is to rid Cof$ of anybody that could possibly challenge his sole claim on the Sea Ogre Reserves. He maintains a tiny veneer of churchiness to maintain tax exempt status, and does a kewl 50% per year or so return on investment on the reserve accounts, and doesn't have to bother with services or maintaining a big facade, etc. Cof$ goes into Christian Science Reading Room mode with just a handful of ancient brainwashed followers.

Pete
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
I suspect that to Slappy Dave, running the orgs is just a pain in the ass, something that has to be done to maintain some sort of veneer to keep up the fund raising operation. Also, from everything I have read here and elsewhere on the web, from his point of view, the Cof$ would be perfect if there were absolutely no other people involved, it was all him. Bottom line ... I suspect that his goal is to rid Cof$ of anybody that could possibly challenge his sole claim on the Sea Ogre Reserves. He maintains a tiny veneer of churchiness to maintain tax exempt status, and does a kewl 50% per year or so return on investment on the reserve accounts, and doesn't have to bother with services or maintaining a big facade, etc. Cof$ goes into Christian Science Reading Room mode with just a handful of ancient brainwashed followers.

Pete

Could you please explain how there is a 50% per year ROI on reserve accounts ?
 

GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
Could you please explain how there is a 50% per year ROI on reserve accounts ?

With 1.5 billion dollars or therabouts, which is a credible figure for Sea Org reserves, there are all sorts of opportunities not available to a guy who might have, say, 40 or 50 thousand dollars to invest for retirement. These strategies are relatively safe, and, made safer still by being big enough to diversify. In equities, for instance, there would be the strategies of dividend capture, also purchasing and holding blue chip stocks and selling out of the money call options. There are commodity plays, leveraged energy deals, bond options, etc. That kind of money can buy the finest MBA types to figure out the best strategies and investments as well. 1.5 billion dollar accounts don't just go into CD's or savings or money market accounts and sit there making 2% annually. A 50% ROI would be conservative. Furthermore, inflation is a lot higher than the official pronouncements from Washington, and you HAVE to make that kind of return to get anywhere in a reasonable time frame.

Pete
 

Freeminds

Bitter defrocked apostate
I don't doubt that the rich get richer. We're seen that across the board, to an unprecedented degree in the last twenty years or so. I would dispute a return of 50%, however. Remember, that diversified portfolio cuts both ways; for every time you buy shares in something that goes straight up and vertical, like Google, there'd be an equivalent that failed to deliver, such as the dismal Facebook. Still, even if all you got was fifteen percent or something, that's not to be sneezed at.

I don't doubt that David Miscavige has an awful lot of money. Scientology is often described as a "billion dollar cult" and with good reason -- and you'd only need to squeeze $20,000 from each of around 50,000 victims to get that first thousand million dollars. We know that Scientology had that number of adherents at its zenith, and we know that a lot of members have handed over the proceeds of the sale of their house, plus their savings. We know that Scientology's expenses for what it sells are virtually nil. It would be bizarre if Scientology wasn't rolling in cash.

But.

To make that money work for you, you need a fund manager. For that much money, you'd employ somebody (or a team) full-time. And let's be honest: no normal person would want to employ a Scientologist in that role. Is that a job for an arrogant 'OT' whackjob who thinks he or she can "postulate" things, and who believes that failures can be attributed to the presence of an "SP"?

No: for your fund manager, you'd want somebody rational. And yet... could a person like David Miscavige trust a non-Scientologist with Scientology's (or more accurately, his) money? No, because he's not rational.

I think Miscavige is unlikely to be making his money work for him, to any great degree. Remember, he's still seeing an income, kicked uplines from all the orgs, despite never having invested in those orgs. It's pure profit. Sure, his pile is growing more slowly than it used to, but it's still growing: and tax-free. And there's a growing real estate portfolio, too. Not completed buildings, in many cases, and not housing successful businesses... but buildings that he can sell, later, for which he paid not a cent. It doesn't matter if they get fitted out tastelessly or never get finished - the next owner would remodel them anyway - nor if they don't actually have permission to open: the building is worth money.

But David Miscavige, alcoholic, paranoiac and violent micro-manager, playing the stock market? I can't see that happening. If he tried it would overwhelm him, but I can't see him trusting somebody else with the job.
 

RolandRB

Rest in Peace
How do the Class V Orgs and Avanced Orgs keep going unless there is real money flowing in? Does Flag income pay for the outer Orgs? Are the outer Orgs paying for Flag? Are IAS funds being used to pay Org utility bills?

I can understand the idea about the Class V Orgs being effectively insolvent but I think it is more complicated than that. Sure, they can't sell enough services to cover their staff training but that does not mean it has to stop. It is just that staff will get paid peanuts for ten years until things pick up again.

I am keen to know if they make enough income either from the Orgs or Flag to cover running costs and if not then the source of that money. It is surely not the Sea Org reserves.
 

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Empty buildings. No new public for years! Staff being forced to pay for auditing cuz there are no new PC's. 1 Clear in the Org in the past 3 years! 1 Oatee Ate in the past 3 years. Oatee Ate's are not coming around or talking to anyone! 1 Oatee joined staff in the past 5 years!

Does this sound like "flourishing and prospering"? The staff will tell you there is "expansion by EPIC PROPORTIONS but that is Slappy McSavages circuit they are running. How else can they justify rat hole apartments, ram en noodles, shit cars, no money, cleaning houses at nights after putting in 12 hours of running in circles doing nothing and creating nothing because there is no one coming in, empty buildings, empty events, COPE-COPE-COPE!

Definition of EXPANSION: 6.
A period of increased economic or business activity.

DM'S definition: Amount of money extorted from everyone for my bank account.


Straight up and vertical...of parishioner's filing bankruptcy! Lies told to control others, Suicides, deaths from cancer, blown PC's, blown students, psychotic breaks! That is the VFP in Scientology today!
 

Freeminds

Bitter defrocked apostate
We don't need to tell them their life is shit. They already know that. We don't need to tell them that their orgs are failing. They already know that.

I suppose that what most of the remaining Scientology staff need is an alternative. An alternative that gets them away from the lies and allows them to devote some of that energy and dedication to their own wellbeing and that of their families. And, of course, having started to make a life of their own, to actually keep what they've earned. This means not being hit for (bogus, unenforceable) Freeloader debt, not being suckered into buying sets of books they don't need, not being hit up for IAS donations, and not permitting WISE to get its hooks into them...

The more the orgs fail, the more desperate the appeals for cash will become. It's not about people anymore; it's purely about the money. Falling membership can be compensated for by extracting more money from each remaining person... but it's going to get worse and worse as time goes on.

Who'd want to be in that madhouse?

BTW, its' Thursday tomorrow...
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
CD's or savings or money market accounts and sit there making 2% annually. A 50% ROI would be conservative.


Dude, you and i have talked about investments a little bit, but how in hell could he possibly achieve a ROI of 50% without taking huge risk positions that depended on an incredible streak of good luck?

Maybe we should talk again if you have a way to routinely net 1% per week without standing the risk of losing ungodly amounts of the portfolio.

PM me or sign me up for your investment home study course (my check for $39.99 is already in the mail) :biggrin:
 

GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
But David Miscavige, alcoholic, paranoiac and violent micro-manager, playing the stock market? I can't see that happening. If he tried it would overwhelm him, but I can't see him trusting somebody else with the job.


DM is a lot of things, I doubt that stupid is one of them. With 1.5 billion, the question is not can you do 50% in a year's time, the question is can you do that much in a month's time. You should be able to double a large portfolio in a year's time with the dividend capture strategy alone. Then there is such a thing as covered calls on blue chip stocks. Real easy ... you purchase some stocks that will always be able to weather the storm, ones that are plugged into the system. You buy when they are at a fire sale price. You then sell the call options, way out of the money, where no way do you get called out. You make a conservative 3% to 5% per month on that.

Now most of the folks here who are reading this are more saavy than most, but, have you really taken the time to examine the nuts and bolts of how certain things work? Most folks are clueless. For example ... the air conditioner compressor on the wife-mobile blew out recently. There were ongoing problems with that car ... there were belt noises, I kept spraying belt dressing. Finally the belt derailed, and I fixed that. Then there were pulley noises. I tossed in a new belt tensioner and idler pulley. Still there were noises. Then the weather got warmer, but the car air conditioner wasn't performing like it should. I tried charging it with refrigerant, but, that wasn't the problem. I told the wife that the A/C compressor would probably need to be replaced, and, that I would do that job myself, but I would need to read up on that a bit and pick a weekend where she wouldn't be needing the car. Instead, the A/C compressor went totally FUBAR, seizing up and snapping the serpentine belt. The car had to be towed. I had to hack a learning curve, had to replace a power steering pump as well, had to learn the hard way to bypass removing the power steering pump pulley and just pull the entire assy. including the power steering pump bracket instead. Then I learned that when you toss in a power steering pump, you have to work the air out of the system since there is no low bleed point to get a nice solid hydraulic system, like with brakes. I made a shitload of goofs along the way, but, I got the job done. In many respects it would have been better to just allow the shop monkeys at Firestone do the job for their exorbitant price. But, I learned. I now know what I am doing with this particular job, I know the nuts and bolts of it. I hacked the learning curve. Phug that phuggen car, it didn't beat me.

Why did I digress? Besides the quadruple rum and coke I just chugged ... to let you know, that is what I am talking about ... nuts and bolts. Understanding a concept is one thing, the nuts and bolts of it all are another. What I am saying is this ... when you are dealing with a 1.5 billion dollar account, it comes with its own nuts and bolts, and, it comes with its own set of mechanics that specialize in the nuts and bolts of an account that size. One thing you are NOT interested in doing with an account that size is scalping ... if you had an account of a few hundred grand, you might be able to make 10% per week OR MORE with constant little day trades. You are ALSO not interested in just "buy and hold". You are big enough that you don't want to be totally into just one market or dependent upon a single currency. Furthermore, you are definitely not interested in just buying bonds. One thing that folks don't know about banking ... what the reserve requirement means. If I have a billion dollars and I run a bank, at a 10% reserve requirement, that 1 billion is my reserve and I can loan out 9 BILLION ... that is, money I don't have ... keeping the 1 billion in reserve, and the rest was CREATED VIA THE SIGNATURE OF THE BORROWERS. When the borrower signed off and I signed off, we agreed ... I acceped the borrower's signature and promise to pay AS HAVING VALUE, and what he owed me BECAME MY ASSET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bottom line ... people with that kind of money routinely see 50% per year or more ROI as well. It's not like they have to mine gold out of the ground and breaking their backs to do it. The funny money system works in your favor at some point. It only works against those who work for a living. If you work for a living you are always too busy to make any money anyways, and that includes hacking the learning curves and understanding the nuts and bolts.

Pete
 

GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
Dude, you and i have talked about investments a little bit, but how in hell could he possibly achieve a ROI of 50% without taking huge risk positions that depended on an incredible streak of good luck?

Maybe we should talk again if you have a way to routinely net 1% per week without standing the risk of losing ungodly amounts of the portfolio.

PM me or sign me up for your investment home study course (my check for $39.99 is already in the mail) :biggrin:

I just noticed your post after finishing up with the one I just did. Hopefully I answered your question. But to expound upon it a bit more ... one of the moves I would consider doing is launching a new M/C or VISA credit card. I wouldn't want to do it alone, but, out of 1.5 billion I would consider forming a corporate entity to start the venture, put a limited partnership behind the corporate entity, and find 30 partners who would be willing to kick in 50 million per. The corporate entity that I formed would be the senior or general partner, would not have to put up dime 1, and would make 20% or more of the profit. That, and out of the 1.5 billion account, I would pickup 2 or 3 of the limited partner units. With reserve requirements being what they are, multiply the interest rates on the cards by a factor of, say, 7 to take into account those who default.

That is just one play. Isn't it fun being a billionaire? There are lots more moves as well, such as owning Congressmen. All sorts of fun and games!

Pete
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
With 1.5 billion dollars or therabouts, which is a credible figure for Sea Org reserves, there are all sorts of opportunities not available to a guy who might have, say, 40 or 50 thousand dollars to invest for retirement. These strategies are relatively safe, and, made safer still by being big enough to diversify. In equities, for instance, there would be the strategies of dividend capture, also purchasing and holding blue chip stocks and selling out of the money call options. There are commodity plays, leveraged energy deals, bond options, etc. That kind of money can buy the finest MBA types to figure out the best strategies and investments as well. 1.5 billion dollar accounts don't just go into CD's or savings or money market accounts and sit there making 2% annually. A 50% ROI would be conservative. Furthermore, inflation is a lot higher than the official pronouncements from Washington, and you HAVE to make that kind of return to get anywhere in a reasonable time frame.

Pete

I suspect that's not possible for Miscavige. He doesn't trust anyone, he reflects his mentor. He micromanages to an extreme. One small loss which would be normal and expected anywhere else and you have a volcanic explosion :omg:, and you are micromanaged to an extreme.

Unless of course that's all a bullshit front for cult business that he drops off at the door as he grabs a martini, slippers and a pipe.

But in any case the whole thing is SECRET. So top notch advisors, no way. I can just see the basement room and the armbands and eyeshades as the RPF unit in charge of investments slaves :duh: away.
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
We don't need to tell them their life is shit. They already know that. We don't need to tell them that their orgs are failing. They already know that.

I suppose that what most of the remaining Scientology staff need is an alternative. An alternative that gets them away from the lies and allows them to devote some of that energy and dedication to their own wellbeing and that of their families. And, of course, having started to make a life of their own, to actually keep what they've earned. This means not being hit for (bogus, unenforceable) Freeloader debt, not being suckered into buying sets of books they don't need, not being hit up for IAS donations, and not permitting WISE to get its hooks into them...

The more the orgs fail, the more desperate the appeals for cash will become. It's not about people anymore; it's purely about the money. Falling membership can be compensated for by extracting more money from each remaining person... but it's going to get worse and worse as time goes on.

Who'd want to be in that madhouse?

BTW, its' Thursday tomorrow...

Not us, we left.

Maybe that's the true purpose of "independent Scn". To provide that window of hope, enough to take a chance on leaving and jump. Then breath for a bit and discover what was true for you can now be true for you.
 

RolandRB

Rest in Peace
DM is a lot of things, I doubt that stupid is one of them. With 1.5 billion, the question is not can you do 50% in a year's time, the question is can you do that much in a month's time. You should be able to double a large portfolio in a year's time with the dividend capture strategy alone. Then there is such a thing as covered calls on blue chip stocks. Real easy ... you purchase some stocks that will always be able to weather the storm, ones that are plugged into the system. You buy when they are at a fire sale price. You then sell the call options, way out of the money, where no way do you get called out. You make a conservative 3% to 5% per month on that.

Now most of the folks here who are reading this are more saavy than most, but, have you really taken the time to examine the nuts and bolts of how certain things work? Most folks are clueless. For example ... the air conditioner compressor on the wife-mobile blew out recently. There were ongoing problems with that car ... there were belt noises, I kept spraying belt dressing. Finally the belt derailed, and I fixed that. Then there were pulley noises. I tossed in a new belt tensioner and idler pulley. Still there were noises. Then the weather got warmer, but the car air conditioner wasn't performing like it should. I tried charging it with refrigerant, but, that wasn't the problem. I told the wife that the A/C compressor would probably need to be replaced, and, that I would do that job myself, but I would need to read up on that a bit and pick a weekend where she wouldn't be needing the car. Instead, the A/C compressor went totally FUBAR, seizing up and snapping the serpentine belt. The car had to be towed. I had to hack a learning curve, had to replace a power steering pump as well, had to learn the hard way to bypass removing the power steering pump pulley and just pull the entire assy. including the power steering pump bracket instead. Then I learned that when you toss in a power steering pump, you have to work the air out of the system since there is no low bleed point to get a nice solid hydraulic system, like with brakes. I made a shitload of goofs along the way, but, I got the job done. In many respects it would have been better to just allow the shop monkeys at Firestone do the job for their exorbitant price. But, I learned. I now know what I am doing with this particular job, I know the nuts and bolts of it. I hacked the learning curve. Phug that phuggen car, it didn't beat me.

Why did I digress? Besides the quadruple rum and coke I just chugged ... to let you know, that is what I am talking about ... nuts and bolts. Understanding a concept is one thing, the nuts and bolts of it all are another. What I am saying is this ... when you are dealing with a 1.5 billion dollar account, it comes with its own nuts and bolts, and, it comes with its own set of mechanics that specialize in the nuts and bolts of an account that size. One thing you are NOT interested in doing with an account that size is scalping ... if you had an account of a few hundred grand, you might be able to make 10% per week OR MORE with constant little day trades. You are ALSO not interested in just "buy and hold". You are big enough that you don't want to be totally into just one market or dependent upon a single currency. Furthermore, you are definitely not interested in just buying bonds. One thing that folks don't know about banking ... what the reserve requirement means. If I have a billion dollars and I run a bank, at a 10% reserve requirement, that 1 billion is my reserve and I can loan out 9 BILLION ... that is, money I don't have ... keeping the 1 billion in reserve, and the rest was CREATED VIA THE SIGNATURE OF THE BORROWERS. When the borrower signed off and I signed off, we agreed ... I acceped the borrower's signature and promise to pay AS HAVING VALUE, and what he owed me BECAME MY ASSET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bottom line ... people with that kind of money routinely see 50% per year or more ROI as well. It's not like they have to mine gold out of the ground and breaking their backs to do it. The funny money system works in your favor at some point. It only works against those who work for a living. If you work for a living you are always too busy to make any money anyways, and that includes hacking the learning curves and understanding the nuts and bolts.

Pete

I'm surprised that none of the pension funds have latched onto this.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I just noticed your post after finishing up with the one I just did. Hopefully I answered your question. But to expound upon it a bit more ... one of the moves I would consider doing is launching a new M/C or VISA credit card. I wouldn't want to do it alone, but, out of 1.5 billion I would consider forming a corporate entity to start the venture, put a limited partnership behind the corporate entity, and find 30 partners who would be willing to kick in 50 million per. The corporate entity that I formed would be the senior or general partner, would not have to put up dime 1, and would make 20% or more of the profit. That, and out of the 1.5 billion account, I would pickup 2 or 3 of the limited partner units. With reserve requirements being what they are, multiply the interest rates on the cards by a factor of, say, 7 to take into account those who default.

That is just one play. Isn't it fun being a billionaire? There are lots more moves as well, such as owning Congressmen. All sorts of fun and games!

Pete



Thanks bud. I read both of your responses but in my experience with investments, venture capital, market trading programs et al, I have only seen theories of such returns OR shorter time frames that an investment strategy worked before the market paradigms or conditions changed for the worse.

What I think you are talking about is a robust model that can perform without a bubble bursting and taking outrageous losses at some point.

What you are describing sounds like the Holy Grail (50% or more ROI annually, year in and year out) and probably should have its own thread. Have you actually been able to achieve this for your own capital? I want a front row seat at your next seminar!
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
HH, what never got explained was how " RESERVES " of 1.5 Billion got to be completely in a " TRADING ACCOUNT ".

Perhaps you can chime in here and help me understand how the entire reserves got put into a trading account.

Nevermind the covered calls ( which he glossed over to mentioning much detail of that one either needs to own the stock or buy options to write against ).

Most professional traders do acknowledge that covered calls are a CONSERVATIVE method of profit but none claim anything like 50 % ROI on an annual basis.

Again, most professionals will tell you that a trading rate of over 70 % is considered genius level and one that the very hottest hedge fund managers aspire to achieve.

When someone tells you that all their trades over a longish period of time are positive do get to share some of what they are smoking - that is some very very good stuff !

I knew an options trader that showed me the slips of where he grossed $250,000 on a short term options trade - and where some went against him for that, too.

But, back to the question - does anybody know anybody that puts their entire net worth into a trading account managed by a professioanl or themself ? ( And nevermind that wou ld violate every common sense 101 rule of diversification ! )

Not evenmisscabbage is THAT stupid.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
HH, what never got explained was how " RESERVES " of 1.5 Billion got to be completely in a " TRADING ACCOUNT ".

Perhaps you can chime in here and help me understand how the entire reserves got put into a trading account.

Nevermind the covered calls ( which he glossed over to mentioning much detail of that one either needs to own the stock or buy options to write against ).

Most professional traders do acknowledge that covered calls are a CONSERVATIVE method of profit but none claim anything like 50 % ROI on an annual basis.

Again, most professionals will tell you that a trading rate of over 70 % is considered genius level and one that the very hottest hedge fund managers aspire to achieve.

When someone tells you that all their trades over a longish period of time are positive do get to share some of what they are smoking - that is some very very good stuff !

I knew an options trader that showed me the slips of where he grossed $250,000 on a short term options trade - and where some went against him for that, too.

But, back to the question - does anybody know anybody that puts their entire net worth into a trading account managed by a professioanl or themself ? ( And nevermind that wou ld violate every common sense 101 rule of diversification ! )

Not evenmisscabbage is THAT stupid.


HH, what never got explained was how " RESERVES " of 1.5 Billion got to be completely in a " TRADING ACCOUNT ".
Well, I take any information about the disposition of funds as speculation, anecdotal or plain "old". A trading account can take funds in/out with the click of a button, so it's not any stretch for that to be possible. And, I would imagine that the paranoia of COB has lead him to a succession of "one-click-away" transfer accounts so that money can be moved around in safe-haven (offshore) venues with several layers of trusts in case any litigation ever has forensic accountants trying to track or freeze assets.

Perhaps you can chime in here and help me understand how the entire reserves got put into a trading account. Assuming that it was put into a trading account, I would imagine that in the early days Miscavige simply had the Feshback brothers advise and expedite such matters, if not have a discretionary trading account that they could manage for him corporately and/or personally.

Nevermind the covered calls ( which he glossed over to mentioning much detail of that one either needs to own the stock or buy options to write against ).Most professional traders do acknowledge that covered calls are a CONSERVATIVE method of profit but none claim anything like 50 % ROI on an annual basis. Again, most professionals will tell you that a trading rate of over 70 % is considered genius level and one that the very hottest hedge fund managers aspire to achieve. To my knowledge NOBODY is routinely achieving 50% or more without taking outrageous risks. If there were such trading programs, large institutional investors or countries would put billions into such accounts on behalf of their clients and reap unheard of windfalls. We are talking about the cover of Fortune, Forbes and an entire issue of the Wall Street Journal, lol.

When someone tells you that all their trades over a longish period of time are positive do get to share some of what they are smoking - that is some very very good stuff !I knew an options trader that showed me the slips of where he grossed $250,000 on a short term options trade - and where some went against him for that, too.But, back to the question - does anybody know anybody that puts their entire net worth into a trading account managed by a professioanl or themself ? ( And nevermind that would violate every common sense 101 rule of diversification ! ) Not evenmisscabbage is THAT stupid
Yes, I do know of many who "put their entire net worth into a trading account managed by a professional or themselves". I personally know dozens of "OT's" who felt thrilled, privileged and eternally grateful that they were "accepted" by master investor/trader Reid Slatkin. The status-filled bragging done by the "chosen ones" who glowingly assured others of their special relationship to their genius-close-personal-friend was horrible even before anyone knew that he was a con man. I even remember the time when Slatkin shocked his investors by sending a letter that he would no longer be managing their investment and returning their funds. People were freaking out because they had factored an automatic 24-30% annual ROI into their lifestyle. They literally begged him to not return the funds. One person with millions bragged that Reid had "allowed" them to stay in, because they were so trouble-free, wonderful, et al. It must have felt like the last person being chosen to board a lifeboat on the Titanic! LOL.

Realistically, if any major fund manager could achieve anything over 10% annually for clients in various market conditions they would be Hall of Fame. If any could routinely achieve 20% they would be legendary. The only way I personally know of to hit the ranges of above 20% are to invest and operate a company that purchases and/or loans funds against commodities or collateral for a fraction of their liquidation value. Naturally, this is very different than a passive "trading account" where one hands over a big box of money and a genius somewhere sends them big checks every month. I lost that guy's phone number, could you send it to me again? LOL
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
What data is there that the reserves are in a trading account?

I have said before that the advices and data I have seen and heard about specifically say what the reserves are supposed to be kept in. Denise probably has better and mores specific info than I but the gist of it was - they are supposed to be portable and liquidatable. Gold, jewels and hard currency (swiss francs were the ones mentioned)


There was very little "trading". Money sent to reserves in KBL or BIS was, for the most part, converted. Hubbard was not - AFAIK (and I stand to be corrected on this part) - interested in investing. He was about acquisition and hedging. Hubbard was risk averse in the extreme.

Now DM has gone whole hog on this Ideal Org crap which is way out in left field and not at all something Hubbard would have embraced so undoubtedly there have been changes but I have not heard anything from anyone with knowledge about what changes have been made in the handling of reserves.



HH, what never got explained was how " RESERVES " of 1.5 Billion got to be completely in a " TRADING ACCOUNT ".
Well, I take any information about the disposition of funds as speculation, anecdotal or plain "old". A trading account can take funds in/out with the click of a button, so it's not any stretch for that to be possible. And, I would imagine that the paranoia of COB has lead him to a succession of "one-click-away" transfer accounts so that money can be moved around in safe-haven (offshore) venues with several layers of trusts in case any litigation ever has forensic accountants trying to track or freeze assets.

Perhaps you can chime in here and help me understand how the entire reserves got put into a trading account. Assuming that it was put into a trading account, I would imagine that in the early days Miscavige simply had the Feshback brothers advise and expedite such matters, if not have a discretionary trading account that they could manage for him corporately and/or personally.

Nevermind the covered calls ( which he glossed over to mentioning much detail of that one either needs to own the stock or buy options to write against ).Most professional traders do acknowledge that covered calls are a CONSERVATIVE method of profit but none claim anything like 50 % ROI on an annual basis. Again, most professionals will tell you that a trading rate of over 70 % is considered genius level and one that the very hottest hedge fund managers aspire to achieve. To my knowledge NOBODY is routinely achieving 50% or more without taking outrageous risks. If there were such trading programs, large institutional investors or countries would put billions into such accounts on behalf of their clients and reap unheard of windfalls. We are talking about the cover of Fortune, Forbes and an entire issue of the Wall Street Journal, lol.

When someone tells you that all their trades over a longish period of time are positive do get to share some of what they are smoking - that is some very very good stuff !I knew an options trader that showed me the slips of where he grossed $250,000 on a short term options trade - and where some went against him for that, too.But, back to the question - does anybody know anybody that puts their entire net worth into a trading account managed by a professioanl or themself ? ( And nevermind that would violate every common sense 101 rule of diversification ! ) Not evenmisscabbage is THAT stupid
Yes, I do know of many who "put their entire net worth into a trading account managed by a professional or themselves". I personally know dozens of "OT's" who felt thrilled, privileged and eternally grateful that they were "accepted" by master investor/trader Reid Slatkin. The status-filled bragging done by the "chosen ones" who glowingly assured others of their special relationship to their genius-close-personal-friend was horrible even before anyone knew that he was a con man. I even remember the time when Slatkin shocked his investors by sending a letter that he would no longer be managing their investment and returning their funds. People were freaking out because they had factored an automatic 24-30% annual ROI into their lifestyle. They literally begged him to not return the funds. One person with millions bragged that Reid had "allowed" them to stay in, because they were so trouble-free, wonderful, et al. It must have felts like the last person being chosen to board a lifeboat on the Titanic! LOL.

Realistically, if any major fund manager could achieve anything over 10% annually for clients in various market conditions they would be Hall of Fame. If any could routinely achieve 20% they would be legendary. The only way I personally know of to hit the ranges of above 20% are to invest and operate a company that purchases and/or loans funds against commodities or collateral for a fraction of their liquidation value. Naturally, this is very different than a passive "trading account" where one hands over a big box of money and a genius somewhere sends them big checks every month. I lost that guy's phone number, could you send it to me again? LOL
 
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