OT 8

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

The statement I quoted was excerpted from his OP blog. This one:






I'm not aware of what he has said in the past as concerns auditing and the tech (other than that blog post).

Maybe there IS a conflict as you say. I don't have enough of an understanding of his concept of how all the tech works to know one way or the other.

Anyways, maybe he'll respond to some of these points.

I have read enough of Gere's writings over time to know that he does believe that the tech works.

Maybe not all of it, but he has been an advocate of it as a way to his higher enlightened position.

If he is calling it a placebo effect now he may trying to have the best of both words, that is, saying it doesn't work but maintaining his status as an OT in other people's eyes..

After all, people do seem to be interested in what he is saying and he self-promotes his blog to get followers.

Maybe his placebo effect comment is his way of finally coming around to the view that the tech is worthless.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[degraded being]

I *think* I follow what you are saying. For example, the Axioms of Scientology could be viewed as a tautological series of statements, starting with Axiom 1, "Life is basically a Static."

The disconnect comes when we enter "Flatlander" mode. Those who HAVE experienced this "Life Static", and those that have not. For those who have experienced it, it is a powerful and enabling kind of thing, and the later Axioms work out. For those that have not experienced "Life Static", it is just more words on a page.

?

More tautology?

 

[Type4_PTS]

QUESTION 1: If the OTs "go out of agreement" and the apple disappears (for them) does it also disappear for anyone else?
​

Excellent apple, thank-you!

 

[Div6]

Perhaps. But the experience is one thng and the interpretation of the experience another thing.

Someone with a different set of definitions may interpret the experience as the Holy Spirit, or space travel, or an effect of drugs.

What makes it more than a tautological statement if it is based on definitions which are based on an objectively measurable experience, or, at least a reasoning based on an experience.

Otherwise it is just faith.

There is nothing wrong with faith.

But what I object to is the claim that one particular paradigm is scientifically based (Scientology) when it is just based on faith.

That's what makes it pathetic and suspect as invalid.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I think you nailed it. The "definition" of life static is "no mass, no wavelength, no location in time or space, but with the ability to postulate and perceive."

No "objective" measurement possible there!

 

[Panda Termint]

I'm really glad Geir is here and discussion can take place. It makes me happy.

(I'm easily pleased).

Agreed. Merry Xmas Geir and to all here on ESMB.

 

[degraded being]

He also said:


The impression I get is that he's saying that Scientology worked for him because he believed it would work.

I don't get that he's making a scientific claim. He's acknowledging that the results he got were because of the placebo effect.

He has a bob each way, doesn't he? Like Hubbard, It sounds convincing and smart to argue using a scientific style, investigative, methodical, finding what-caused-what; yet based on hookitipootchy.

The "placebo effect" findings are to announce his conclusion based on methodical investigation, aren't they? It is similar to drug vs placebo trials/research, except in it is a philosophical investigation, not a medical one, so he does not need physical proof, but his ideas should at least be argued without logical flaws.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I think you nailed it. The "definition" of life static is "no mass, no wavelength, no location in time or space, but with the ability to postulate and perceive."

No "objective" measurement possible there!

And Scientology calls this an axiom, a self-evident truth.

How it can have no mass, no wavelength, no location in time or space and still be evident is beyond me.

I don't think most people would have a problem with Scientology if it claimed to be faith based.

But it doesn't. It claims to be scientific with predictable results for its processes.

I've got more respect for faith-healers.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Type4_PTS]

I have read enough of Gere's writings over time to know that he does believe that the tech works.

Maybe not all of it, but he has been an advocate of it as a way to his higher enlightened position.

If he is calling it a placebo effect now he may trying to have the best of both words, that is, saying it doesn't work but maintaining his status as an OT in other people's eyes..

After all, people do seem to be interested in what he is saying and he self-promotes his blog to get followers.

Maybe his placebo effect comment is his way of finally coming around to the view that the tech is worthless.

Well, I do get from his OP that he does believe strongly that the tech works, but a big reason that it works is because of the placebo effect.

I also get (from the exchange I had with him several hours ago) that while he believes the tech works, he doesn't seem to place nearly the value on it as a typical scientologist. (Our eternity doesn't depend upon the application of the tech).

This is the exchange I'm referring to:

Hi Geir,

I do have a question for you and any others who have completed OT 8.

Are their some particularly important benefits you felt you obtained from this (or any of the lower levels) which you believe to be unobtainable by any other means, other than Scientology?

Nope. As I say in the OP link - I do believe anything can have the potential to give a person any gain as long as it leads the person to believe it does.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Well, I do get from his OP that he does believe strongly that the tech works, but a big reason that it works is because of the placebo effect.

I also get (from the exchange I had with him several hours ago) that while he believes the tech works, he doesn't seem to place nearly the value on it as a typical scientologist. (Our eternity doesn't depend upon the application of the tech).

This is the exchange I'm referring to:

Then you see the contradiction. He says it works because of the placebo effect.

But if it is the placebo effect then it doesn't work.

If it is the placebo effect that counts then why is he even concerning himself with Scientology?

His position through his whole evolution is untenable and now even contradictory.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

The highest ability in Scientology is to "go out of agreement" with the physical universe (and other beings trying to control you) and "mock up your own reality."

However....

The moment you "go out of agreement" with the part of the physical universe called Scientology (and the Scientologists trying to control you) and "mock up your own reality"--Scientology will declare you an SP and do everything they can to destroy you.

Have I mentioned recently that Ron was a degenerate liar?

 

[degraded being]

I am currently very curious about other methods that has demonstrated similar gains as I got from the bridge.

Show us yours and we'll show you ours.
You'll have to say what gains you got, specifically, other than it was cool to do it.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

...


SIDE BY SIDE COMPARISON:

OT VIII: I went out of agreement with the physical universe, spotted my wholetrack counter-postulates and as-ised them. Then, using my OT powers I postulated a new reality in my universe and made my mockups real to other beings in the MEST universe, on this planet.

WOG: I thought about it and changed my mind.​

Helpful Tip for OTs: Always end each sentence with "on this planet". It enables other smaller beings to duplicate your theta power, certainty and calm space, on this planet.

 

[Veda]

Oh God, not the placebo thing again. This thread is going in circles.

He also said:


The impression I get is that he's saying that Scientology worked for him because he believed it would work.

I don't get that he's making a scientific claim. He's acknowledging that the results he got were because of the placebo effect.

-snip-

As for placebo; I don't believe in a Real World Out There. I believe in a completely subjective world. Hence placebo is all there is

-snip-

Obviously, the word "placebo" has a special definition for Geir, since everything is "placebo."

If anyone wants to revisit this - ultimately futile - placebo discussion, that goes on for pages and pages, return to Geir's above post and you'll be in the middle of it.

 

[Isene]

Yep. It adds value, must work is the thought one would have to himself if I paid so much money for it, but "it" is drawn out over time. And "it" includes lost opportunity that one never sees, oh that outpoint of missing data..

As well as "wow, he LRH wrote so much, there must be something to this". But, hey, if one (LRH) is getting paid for talking and lecturing, and people listen and buy my words, why, why not keep talking and lecturing.

(Answer deleted - answered wrong post - damn I'm tired)

 

[Infinite]

And Scientology calls this an axiom, a self-evident truth.

How it can have no mass, no wavelength, no location in time or space and still be evident is beyond me.

I don't think most people would have a problem with Scientology if it claimed to be faith based.

But it doesn't. It claims to be scientific with predictable results for its processes.

I've got more respect for faith-healers.

The Anabaptist Jacques

It gets worse. Apart from the fact that the "static" is not self evident, given also that it has the ability to "consider", what can it possibly "consider" in the absence of anything to "consider" nor the time in which to do so?

 

[Isene]

Night Gier - thanks for posting. Maybe next time you can tell me if you are interested in doing the old OT 5 & 6 Mimsey

I will do them - probably in 2014. I wan to know what they will do for me. L10 & L12 I will do in 2013.

 

[Isene]

Is that, (highlighted), philosophy?

Does the physical universe have a power of suggestion?
Is it really "in agreement with all the individuals residing in it?
You might have the same ideas that I do, or not, but first it would take a while to decipher the scientology cult way of conceptualising things, to find out what you really mean. "In agreement" ????

Nice to have another interested in these things. I will have to leave this one for another time, lest there will be no X-Mas

 

[Isene]

Are you able to be exterior from the body at will?

Are you able to be exterior from the body at will with full perception?

Can you travel freely, as a spirit, around the universe?

Can you recall all your past lives?

Have you attained the state of Clear as defined in 1950 DMSMH?

If David Miscavige left, and new reformed management took over, and OT 9 were released, and you were confident that it was an LRH level, would you return to the CofS to do OT9?

"No" to all of the above.

 

[Isene]

.
.
Gier:
"...I was mainly on an exploration to see what the bridge could offer. I wasn't speculating that much or trying to resolve much. More like "let's see what this level can do...", "Oh, OK, that was pretty cool" or "hey, that's a neat gain", etc...."

Yes, but the bridge took a lot of money and time, organising your life around it...etc.
You sound as if you were not really concerned about what result you got as long as it was satisfying. Right? But surely, you must have had some expectation.
Did you expect "spiritual" gains? Release (as per the release levels) re-gained abilities? State of clear? Abilities of OT -ones suggested by promo, or other individuals, or just hoping for something OT? (beyond usual intellectual/cognitive abilities, or metal-physical abilities?

I have been working hard to remove all expectations in life - and is often left with pure enjoying instead. I was pretty good at that from before. I had small expectations and was mostly excited about doing the next level as the previous seemed to work rather well.

 

[Isene]

This you state reminds me of the PTS/SP tech.

As a small business owner I have run across people that have created trouble for me and thus I no longer do business with them. My choice. Thus they are PTS/SP to my business.

This is quite similar to the credit card and loan industry. If one borrows money, and promises to pay back as agreed, why one is a good member. Default, and one gets a sliding scale credit rating, PTS tech. But, the bottom line is make payments, good customer. Makes sense.

Add in PR and Marketing tech.

per KSW, the only thing you can be upbraided for is "no results". Add in OSA (fear) to keep people silent while doing PR/Marketing.

Per 4 conditions of exchange, exchange in abundance to be a howling success.

Why isn't scientology a howling success by now, 60 years?

Why does a staff member or reg have to hard sell?

Exchange keeps the bank off. You got that right, but it ain't a bank, it's being ripped off and I'm upset is the thought. What bank, there is no bank, it's made up by communicating it exists thru books.

End of rant.

Although there are pieces of the Admin Tech that works - as a whole it is unworkable:
http://isene.me/2011/11/29/on-l-ron-hubbards-administrative-technology/ (Geir - your local link whore)

And then - the CoS and Hubbard overpromised and underdelivered. Hence the need for hard sell.