OT 8

[Isene]

I appreciate your response here, and I would say that it almost answers my question, Geir Basically, I'm still wondering, would you advocate Scientology to someone - either the tech, or the experience of getting on the 'Bridge to Total Freedom." Based on your wins, is it worth it?

And happy holidays,

XB

Remove the CoS from the equation, remove KSW, cherry-pick what seems to work well... yes, then I would recommend it.

 

[Isene]

Geir,
I appreciate your discussion. But I want to address the one fundamental observation that I have that makes me just shake my head and say “How pathetic” when I read the things you write.

My intent is not to make less of what you are saying, but rather to try to understand how it is that you can maintain something that to me is clearly untenable.

I simply cannot understand how you cannot see that your statements are empty of substance.

So here goes:

It seems to me that most of your statements, even the very paradigm of your discussion, is based on tautological statements, built one upon the other, that have no substance.

The logic definition of tautology is: An empty statement composed of simpler statements in a fashion that makes it logically true whether the simpler statements are factually true or false; for example, “Either we’ll go or we’ll stay.” [American Heritage Dictionary]

Please do not mistake what I am saying for some semantic argument.

What I am saying is that you are not expressing anything of substance, but implying that there is substance to what you are saying.

I can give a cognition such as “I just realized that all bachelors are unmarried!” And I can say that I am blown away by this and it has changed my viewpoint and now I am more aware.

In a cognition or view or statement like this, it is true logically and therefore appears certain only because it is simply a restatement of the terms themselves.

So if I say, I am a thetan and not part of the physical universe, then that is apparently true and apparently logical and apparently certain because a thetan by definition is not part of the physical universe.

So it seems to be a truth, but it is merely a tautological statement based on your definition of a thetan. And your definitions are your presuppositions.

And therefore it is one big circular argument.

All of what you say presupposes that your definitions are true.

There is no logic or truth value or other basis for it being true other than it is a tautological statement.
It is simply true by definition and the definition is your definition.

Let’s say that someone who shares your paradigm and definitions says they are not in agreement with the physical universe.

My definition of reality is that which exists outside of our minds, and that this can be defined as the physical universe.

But this guy’s definition of reality is that reality is agreement.

So he can say that he is not in agreement with the physical universe and he can be certain of that and it is logical because it is a tautological statement build upon definitions built upon presuppositions of other definitions.

What I see in all your pronouncements are nothing but tautological statements.

And to me you seem to hold these tautologically statements as truth, when they are only true because of the definitions you give them.

It is one whole circular argument from start to finish.

I can’t understand how you cannot see this.

This is why I consider your reflections not to be reflections at all; I consider yours to be the semantic trick.

I am not saying that your reflections based on your definitions do not cause you to change your mind about things; of course it would.

If I redefined an automobile to be a chariot of a god then I may certainly come to the realization that since I drive an automobile then perhaps I am a god.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Excellent food for a big philosophical thread. And I am sorry I cannot engage in that one right now. X-Mas is coming and fast, and I am trying my best to answer questions that will not rob us of opening the presents and eating nice food. I will write an article on this - promise - and then I'll be back for some blog pimping over here.

 

[Isene]

I am not basing what I said on diagraming his sentences.

He said he got results, this implies it works, this implies it is empirical and scientific.

No. I said it worked for me. I am not claiming scientific validity for Scientology. In fact, I have criticized it for not taking that route:

http://isene.me/2011/02/23/scientology-scientific-standards/

 

[Isene]

I think that assumption is a stretch. I am talking about his OP blog.

And, besides, him saying it is a placebo effect now contradicts his premise all he has said about auditing and the tech in the past.

So I see that statement as a mere PR acceptable truth statement.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Not a stretch. It is what I am saying.

 

[Isene]

I have read enough of Gere's writings over time to know that he does believe that the tech works.

Maybe not all of it, but he has been an advocate of it as a way to his higher enlightened position.

If he is calling it a placebo effect now he may trying to have the best of both words, that is, saying it doesn't work but maintaining his status as an OT in other people's eyes..

Nope. Not interested in an "OT status". Never was. Hated it when I did seminars in Russia and people started to treat me as if I was a prophet or something. Hated it.

I simply want to explore and evolve and find out new things. Mostly for the sake of the journey and not any specific goal.

 

[Veda]

Are you able to be exterior from the body at will?

Are you able to be exterior from the body at will with full perception?

Can you travel freely, as a spirit, around the universe?

Can you recall all your past lives?

Have you attained the state of Clear as defined in 1950 DMSMH?

If David Miscavige left, and new reformed management took over, and OT 9 were released, and you were confident that it was an LRH level, would you return to the CofS to do OT9?

"No" to all of the above.

Except for the last question, which I'm glad you answered "No," it seems you did not attain the state of OT on the OT levels.

I guess you had "huge gains" in your own mind, which is, after all, all there is, per your definition of reality.

One has to wonder, why, if you're the creator of reality, you simply don't decide that you have the above abilities and, thus, have them.

 

[Isene]

Then you see the contradiction. He says it works because of the placebo effect.

But if it is the placebo effect then it doesn't work.

If it is the placebo effect that counts then why is he even concerning himself with Scientology?

His position through his whole evolution is untenable and now even contradictory.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Not to worry. It is faith based. And so is X-Mas

 

[Isene]

Show us yours and we'll show you ours.
You'll have to say what gains you got, specifically, other than it was cool to do it.

Follow the links:
http://isene.me/2012/07/10/my-current-stance-on-scientology/

 

[Isene]

Except for the last question, which I'm glad you answered "No," it seems you did not attain the state of OT on the OT levels.

I guess you had "huge gains" in your own mind, which is, after all, all there is, per your definition of reality.

One has to wonder, why, if you're the creator of reality, you simply don't decide that you have the above abilities and, thus, have them.

Yes, that is the question - just like why a person with fear of hights cannot simply decide to not have the fear - but still it disappeared when he talked to this guy I know (not a Scientologist) for an hour. Or why a person with fear of audiences cannot simply "get off it" - but he does after I have talked to him for a few minutes. It is covered by Watts, though. But the answer is the one I seek a better understanding of.

 

[Veda]

Yes, that is the question - just like why a person with fear of hights cannot simply decide to not have the fear - but still it disappeared when he talked to this guy I know (not a Scientologist) for an hour. Or why a person with fear of audiences cannot simply "get off it" - but he does after I have talked to him for a few minutes. It is covered by Watts, though. But the answer is the one I seek a better understanding of.

You seem to be revising some of your earlier assertions. And that's fine, and can be be expected when someone is moving beyond the Scientology experience.

Best wishes.

 

[Isene]

You seem to be revising some of your earlier assertions. And that's fine, and can be be expected when someone is moving beyond the Scientology experience.

Best wishes.

Always evolving

 

[Type4_PTS]

Then you see the contradiction. He says it works because of the placebo effect.

But if it is the placebo effect then it doesn't work.

If you went to the doctor for chronic headaches and he gave you a placebo to take daily which made your headaches go away, from your point of view as patient, you would probably think that the treatment "worked".

So I don't necessarily see it as a contradiction. This may not be a mainstream medicine view, but I see evidence that this view is shifting. Like here:
http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/201...bo-or-not-acupuncture-can-help-with-pain?lite

Scientists don't really understand how acupuncture works to relieve pain, and some believe that it only "works" because of the placebo effect. But it often gets better results than other methods and is becoming more and more accepted into mainstream medical treatments.

Acupuncture's use has become more mainstream. The military has used it to help treat pain from war wounds, and California recently passed legislation that would include acupuncture among treatments recommended for coverage under provisions of the nation's new health care law. That law requires insurance plans to cover certain categories of benefits starting in 2014. Deciding specifics is being left up to the states.
http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/201...bo-or-not-acupuncture-can-help-with-pain?lite

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Originally Posted by Veda
Are you able to be exterior from the body at will?

Are you able to be exterior from the body at will with full perception?

Can you travel freely, as a spirit, around the universe?

Can you recall all your past lives?

Have you attained the state of Clear as defined in 1950 DMSMH?

If David Miscavige left, and new reformed management took over, and OT 9 were released, and you were confident that it was an LRH level, would you return to the CofS to do OT9?

"No" to all of the above.

Thanks for the simple and direct answer.

So, summing up, here's what i see. Scientology did not deliver any of the states/abilities promised or what you paid for, but you are (for reasons known only to you) satisfied with some random "wins" that you had. And you want more of those kind of "wins".

QUESTION: When you promote the tech (which you have done often, including the blog essay that began this thread) wouldn't it be more far more honest and helpful to your readers to let them know up front that Scientology is a hoax that is incapable of delivering Clear, OT, exterior or Total Freedom, despite spending untold years and hundreds of thousands of dollars?

I think that your complete failure to disclose the truth about the Scientology hoax is what caused all the reactions you got on ESMB. Whatever your intent, I do not know, but it comes across as self-serving and very irresponsible to purposefully hide the cult's treacherous lying.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

If you went to the doctor for chronic headaches and he gave you a placebo to take daily which made your headaches go away, from your point of view as patient, you would probably think that the treatment "worked".

So I don't necessarily see it as a contradiction. This may not be a mainstream medicine view, but I see evidence that this view is shifting. Like here:
http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/201...bo-or-not-acupuncture-can-help-with-pain?lite

Scientists don't really understand how acupuncture works to relieve pain, and some believe that it only "works" because of the placebo effect. But it often gets better results than other methods and is becoming more and more accepted into mainstream medical treatments.

The problems with referring to Scientology as a "placebo" is that placebos are typically inert tablets costing a penny to make and a few seconds to swallow; whereas Scientology is a full-fledged con game costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and stealing decades of a person's life.

Placebos have nothing to do with wide scale consumer fraud, bankrupting people, disconnecting people from their familes, loved ones and workplace. Placebos also do not threaten, harass, lie, deceive, terrorize and fair game people for financial gain.

Using the word placebo in descriptions of Scientology is, ipso facto, a perversion of the term. Likewise, persons being utterly shaken down by a Ponzi Scheme who are elated with their (financial) "gains" are not experiencing a placebo effect either.

People get "wins" from all manner of things, both good and bad. If anyone is in doubt, look at some of the old black and white footage of Hitler's motorcade parading through the streets of pre-war Berlin where German citizens were swooning, joyfully crying and shrieking ecstatic words of adulation. Those people were having "wins" too.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

I think you are simplifying it a bit. The same effect is attributed to taking vile tasting medicine which brings about the cure - in the mind of the patient: if it tastes that bad, it is really strong medicine and it will cure me. And the person cures himself. Did you ever have Terpin Hydrate for coughs - God that s**t was vile.

Anyway, by making something expensive and hard to obtain makes it more valueable. That principal is as old as the oldest profession. Hubbard used it through out Scientology

Mimsey

 

[Type4_PTS]

"So, summing up, here's what i see. Scientology did not deliver any of the states/abilities promised or what you paid for....."

From wog to OT VIII are really just the set-up's to be able to get those real OT wins you're looking for. The next level will handle what you're wanting. Please come in immediately for a Tech Estimate!

I think that your complete failure to disclose the truth about the Scientology hoax is what caused all the reactions you got on ESMB. Whatever your intent, I do not know, but it comes across as self-serving and very irresponsible to purposefully hide the cult's treacherous lying.

I can see how the blog post linked to in the OP could be seen as a promotional piece for OT VIII, and I agree that it IS irresponsible to promote it without warning others of the potential dangers involved in traveling that route, and that is what's causing the reactions.

If I had told you how wonderful and scenic a particular road was without informing of you about the hundreds of people dying on it every year, you'd probably be pretty pissed off at me, such as with this road here:

North Yungas Road, Bolivia
The North Yungas Road (alternatively known as Grove's Road, Coroico Road, Camino de las Yungas, Road of fate or Death Road) is a 61-kilometre (38 mi) or 69-kilometre (43 mi) road[1] leading from La Paz to Coroico, 56 kilometres (35 mi) northeast of La Paz in the Yungas region of Bolivia. It is legendary for its extreme danger and in 1995 the Inter-American Development Bank christened it as the "world's most dangerous road".[2][3][4] One estimate is that 200 to 300 travellers are killed yearly along the road.[4] The road includes cross markings on many of the spots where vehicles have fallen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yungas_Road

 

[Type4_PTS]

The problems with referring to Scientology as a "placebo" is that placebos are typically inert tablets costing a penny to make and a few seconds to swallow; whereas Scientology is a full-fledged con game costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and stealing decades of a person's life.

Placebos have nothing to do with wide scale consumer fraud, bankrupting people, disconnecting people from their familes, loved ones and workplace. Placebos also do not threaten, harass, lie, deceive, terrorize and fair game people for financial gain.

I agree with every word you say here about Scientology, and then some.

But I believe that using a placebo and charging hundreds of thousands for it is part of the con game, and I believe Hubbard was aware of this from the beginning.

Using the word placebo in descriptions of Scientology is, ipso facto, a perversion of the term. Likewise, persons being utterly shaken down by a Ponzi Scheme who are elated with their (financial) "gains" are not experiencing a placebo effect either.

I believe that many of the "wins" that someone has from scientology do come from the placebo effect, at least in part, and don't believe it is a perversion of the term "placebo" to say so.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I think you are simplifying it a bit. The same effect is attributed to taking vile tasting medicine which brings about the cure - in the mind of the patient: if it tastes that bad, it is really strong medicine and it will cure me. And the person cures himself. Did you ever have Terpin Hydrate for coughs - God that s**t was vile.

Anyway, by making something expensive and hard to obtain makes it more valueable. That principal is as old as the oldest profession. Hubbard used it through out Scientology

Mimsey

No disagrement at all with the observable fact that people sometimes get "results" from all manner of snake oil. As a matter of fact did you ever see film footage of the ultra-religious "Snake Handlers" whose ministry consists of holding poisonous snakes as a religious ritual of spiritual deliverance?

A lot of parishioners of those cults have huge "wins" (i.e. a hyper-placebo effect) accompanied by VVGI's, realizations galore and the attainment of advanced deified states, much like Scientologists who have been regged & audited.

 

[Type4_PTS]

I was just doing a search for something and came across a thread on OCMB entitled "Scientology as a Placebo". I haven't read it as yet but linking to it for anyone who might be interested:
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=16228

 

[DagwoodGum]

The problems with referring to Scientology as a "placebo" is that placebos are typically inert tablets costing a penny to make and a few seconds to swallow; whereas Scientology is a full-fledged con game costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and stealing decades of a person's life.

Placebos have nothing to do with wide scale consumer fraud, bankrupting people, disconnecting people from their familes, loved ones and workplace. Placebos also do not threaten, harass, lie, deceive, terrorize and fair game people for financial gain.

Using the word placebo in descriptions of Scientology is, ipso facto, a perversion of the term. Likewise, persons being utterly shaken down by a Ponzi Scheme who are elated with their (financial) "gains" are not experiencing a placebo effect either.

People get "wins" from all manner of things, both good and bad. If anyone is in doubt, look at some of the old black and white footage of Hitler's motorcade parading through the streets of pre-war Berlin where German citizens were swooning, joyfully crying and shrieking ecstatic words of adulation. Those people were having "wins" too.

To put it harshly, the placebo was arsenic laced with cynide. To put it mildly, the placebo was a sugar pill laced with cyanide. In either case it didn't pass the taste test to many of us so we left our little clay demo tables with a mouthful of a bellyful.