OT 8

[Mark A. Baker]

... At least on OT8 Geir realized he is not Mark A. Baker.

but it seems that you haven't yet realized you're not Geir Iseme. (It's a joke, don't get upset). ...

My mind is Buddha Mind so in a sense I am Geir, ergo why should I be upset?


Mark A. Baker

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

My mind is Buddha Mind so in a sense I am Geir, ergo why should I be upset?


Mark A. Baker

Ok, now that's cool!

Good answer.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

My mind is Buddha Mind so in a sense I am Geir, ergo why should I be upset?


Mark A. Baker

hmm.. Is that mixing of metaphors? - If one is a metaphor...

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

You would prefer to decide for them?

Mental conditioning affects us all, but then you already knew that. Breaking down that conditioning is difficult. One of the neat things about auditing is that it can breakdown unrecognized mental filters which block a person's understanding. That can be highly beneficial to the individual in question. You know that too. Unfortunately, that process can also be turned on its head to the detriment of individuals, which is one of the many reasons why individuals can have widely divergent results from any sort of activity which involves addressing the preconceptions and other mental filters which determine their mental conditioning. But again, you already know all of that.

So why exactly are you objecting to someone else who has chosen to express his views concerning his own experiences and thoughts regarding such activities? His ideas are thoughtful and well-expressed. If he doesn't choose to bother with the sort of unnecessary conflict which can be routinely found in response to similar posts on the board who can really blame him?

In the case of Geir's post with regard ot viii, few enough people have completed the church's bridge that his views on the subject are valuable from that perspective alone. No one need take them as 'the last word' on the topic.


Mark A. Baker

Mark,

I haven't done any of the OT levels.

But I have heard unequivocally over and over from every OT I have discussion with about how much more aware of things they are than I am.

Yet now you're trying to convince me that somehow they couldn't see what I could see.

You can't have it both ways.

Either they could see the crimes and injustice or they aren't any more aware than anyone else, maybe even less aware.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[degraded being]

My mind is Buddha Mind so in a sense I am Geir, ergo why should I be upset?


Mark A. Baker

Why should you be upset? Because if you are Geir, for the reason you have given, then you are also me and the other scum on this board.

 

[Panda Termint]

I think if someone did not know it was because they did not want to know.

For people who claimed each step brought with it increased knowingness they sure seemed to pick and choose what they wanted to know.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I think that you're quite mistaken about this, TAJ. I know my own experience and I have discussed this exact point with many Exes.

I've never met a single Public person who had an inkling of a fraction of the abuse and intolerable conditions extant during our participation. Some might well think of it as willful blindness but most of these things are very well hidden from the scientology Public. As a matter of fact, I've actually had several RPFers extolling the virtues of the RPF to me after they had graduated.

Perception is everything and now, with the benefit of the internet and 20/20 hindsight, it's easy to see how cleverly we were fooled into thinking all was well within the CofS. I was perhaps naive but I wasn't willfully blind to the abuse.

 

[pollywog]

I think that you're quite mistaken about this, TAJ. I know my own experience and I have discussed this exact point with many Exes.

I've never met a single Public person who had an inkling of a fraction of the abuse and intolerable conditions extant during our participation. Some might well think of it as willful blindness but most of these things are very well hidden from the scientology Public. As a matter of fact, I've actually had several RPFers extolling the virtues of the RPF to me after they had graduated.

Perception is everything and now, with the benefit of the internet and 20/20 hindsight, it's easy to see how cleverly we were fooled into thinking all was well within the CofS. I was perhaps naive but I wasn't willfully blind to the abuse.

Then the knowing how to know just wasn't all that fucking great, was it?

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I think that you're quite mistaken about this, TAJ. I know my own experience and I have discussed this exact point with many Exes.

I've never met a single Public person who had an inkling of a fraction of the abuse and intolerable conditions extant during our participation. Some might well think of it as willful blindness but most of these things are very well hidden from the scientology Public. As a matter of fact, I've actually had several RPFers extolling the virtues of the RPF to me after they had graduated.

Perception is everything and now, with the benefit of the internet and 20/20 hindsight, it's easy to see how cleverly we were fooled into thinking all was well within the CofS. I was perhaps naive but I wasn't willfully blind to the abuse.

What about increased awareness and knowingness?

Wasn't there a lot of that supposedly going around with public PCs?

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Well, Geir ain't gonna post the OT8 materials.. He didn't have the moral stamina to copy and steal that shit when he left. But, those materials being what is needed and wanted right now makes his promotion and advertising of OT8 moot. Just more 'hype' for OT8, which is readily available from the Sinister Scam Cult of Scientology itself.

Obviously promoting OT8 to ex-scientologists will work like trolling and/or shit stirring.. Something that we wouldn't expect from ever so polite Geir... But frankly, I'm quite certain that Geir knows exactly what he's doing. If for nothing else than him having stirred this exact same shit before.

ARRHHRRMMMPPFFT!!!!!

Scientology is a fraud. Hubbard designed it as a fraud from the get go. The idea was to cheat some marks out of their money. Calling it a 'religion' damn near made the fraud 'legal'.

Scientology, and Hubbard, has a political agenda. A society that rivals Orwell's 1984 in it's absolute evilness.

Promoting OT8, or any other Scientology shit, is to promote the above.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Mark,

I haven't done any of the OT levels.

But I have heard unequivocally over and over from every OT I have discussion with about how much more aware of things they are than I am.

Yet now you're trying to convince me that somehow they couldn't see what I could see.

You can't have it both ways.

Either they could see the crimes and injustice or they aren't any more aware than anyone else, maybe even less aware.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I'm not trying to convince you about anything having to do with "OTs". That was hubbard's shtick.

I can understand how someone can get personal benefit from aspects of auditing on the ot levels. I've known people who have. Heck, I've been there myself, although admittedly with 'squirreled" versions.

I've also known people who had done ot levels who I considered to be, to put it euphemistically, "unreliable". Clearly one of those people was l. ron hubbard himself.

Clearly, ymmv.

Auditing can be tremendously helpful in increasing personal awareness. That doesn't mean it necessarily will be. Much depends on the individual. Much depends on the intention. Much depends on the application. In short, there is many a slip 'twixt cup and lip ...

The biggest mistake with regard to the tech that hubbard ever made was his "one size must fit all" approach. It's useful to remember that that is as true with regard the failures of auditing as it is with regard the successes.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Why should you be upset? Because if you are Geir, for the reason you have given, then you are also me and the other scum on this board.

I don't think of the other expressions of "self" as scum. I just recognize that the three poisons effect all aspects of 'my' ordinary mind and that is the source of the confusion and turmoil that ensues.


Mark A. Baker :angel:

 

[pollywog]

I don't think of the other expressions of "self" as scum. I just recognize that the three poisons effect all aspects of 'my' ordinary mind and that is the source of the confusion and turmoil that ensues.


Mark A. Baker :angel:

Affect.

(sorry. Grammar Nazi in training.)

 

[Jump]

Affect.

(sorry. Grammar Nazi in training.)

Mark could have meant 'effect' in that the three poisons cause all aspects of his mind to occur .. but I doubt that

 

[Infinite]

. . . Auditing can be tremendously helpful in increasing personal awareness . . .

DOX PLOX - and, of couse, success stories don't count.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... But I have heard unequivocally over and over from every OT I have discussion with about how much more aware of things they are than I am.

Yet now you're trying to convince me that somehow they couldn't see what I could see.

You can't have it both ways.

Either they could see the crimes and injustice or they aren't any more aware than anyone else, maybe even less aware.

The Anabaptist Jacques

You can only see that at which you look. Very few zen masters or gurus are also competent hedge fund traders. Not because they haven't the potential, but because they don't bother to concern themselves with those markets from lack of interest. One thing that is obvious about people, they have different interests and motivations and these are what govern where they put there attention.

Many ots have not only noticed what was going on in the church environment, they sought to change things. They often got booted out for their troubles. No doubt one of the reasons the church has produced so few ot viii's lies in the fact that they have made it extremely difficult to get that far. Time spent actively involved in the management or activity within an actual org of scientology might actually work against people to the degree it increased the likelihood of 'ethics trouble' rearing it's ugly head. Who knows?

The fact is that not all scientologists make scientology the entire focus of their lives. Successful auditing addresses the concerns and interests of the individual, and NOT, as the church often appears to act, those of the group. So any shifts in awareness are going to be primarily centered around the cognitive subjective processes of the individual. That may result in changes of perception of the physical environment, but that is a less certain and more indirect feature if present at all.

The reality is that successful auditing is about personal introspection and the 'levels' as described are not objective states of being. They are subjective states. Accordingly, two people can both attest to the same 'level' and yet exhibit vastly different abilities and competencies.

Was hubbard lying? Quite possibly. But ye may well have believed what he said himself at the time he said it. What is clear is whether or not he was intentionally lying, he was quite clearly mistaken in his assertions. Auditing 'levels' do not reflect uniform and objective states of being.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Affect.

(sorry. Grammar Nazi in training.)

spelling NAZI in training.

That's not a grammatical error.

 

[Jump]

<snipped>
Very few zen masters or gurus are also competent hedge fund traders. Not because they haven't the potential, but because they don't bother to concern themselves with those markets from lack of interest.

...

Mark A. Baker

Let's look at that axiom you start your post on. You may be right, but it could equally be because hedge trading only works on results, bullshitting doesn't cut it.

Feelings of one-ness and tranquillity are not the same as all-knowingness. They are entirely different.



It's like the spiritual seeker shouldn't ask the short order cook to make him one with everything.

 

[Infinite]

. . . Was hubbard lying? Quite possibly. But ye may well have believed what he said himself at the time he said it . . .

Huh? L Ron Hubbard was intentionally lying about Auditing from day one . . .

. . . What is clear is whether or not he was intentionally lying, he was quite clearly mistaken in his assertions. Auditing 'levels' do not reflect uniform and objective states of being.

True, yet Auditing levels do reflect the uniform and objective handing over of cash due to false pretence, as L Ron Hubbard intended.

 

[Hatshepsut]

I have been keeping up with these very interesting posts. Lively....yes.

I just now wandered into what I felt was similar type stuff after re-checking an earlier mention of Avatar in a post here


Harry Palmer from Star's Edge ____ about Identity Handlings or his Creation Procedure Handling. One is from alt.clearing technology .
Dutch I believe for the first half but scrolling halfway down the doc it re-appears in English.

AVATAR WIZARD COURSE
ENTITIES LECTURE, ORLANDO,
FLORIDA JANUARY, 1991, DAY 10

By Harry Palmer

http://www.stelling.nl/cgi-bin/admi...AVATAR.htm&titel=Avatar:_goddelijke_business_

from alt.clearing

PERSISTENT IDENTITY CREATION
HANDLING PROCEDURE


posts by two former avatar masters

http://groups.google.com/group/alt....alt.clearing.avatar/browse_frm/month/2006-03?


CREATION HANDLING PROCEDURE

(Revised and reissued by Star's Edge International 3/1/96 to update and
replace Creation Handling Procedure previous Avatar Course Section III)



General Theory

Observation: Awareness creates within itself and experiences within its
creations.

When awareness chooses to experience its creation, it becomes identified
with the creation; it exists as that creation. It does not respond _to_ the
creation; it responds _as_ the creation. While it is identified with the
creation, it manifests as consciousness limited by the boundaries of the
creation. Defined consciousness may believe itself separate from the
undefined awareness that exists beyond the limits of the creation being
occupied. When it does, gods are created.

Since undefined awareness is without limits, creation may be said to
occur within it. (The within/without is used here for conceptualizing the
idea. Since awareness is without even infinite limits, it would be more
accurate to say that awareness and creation are of entirely different
realms, but this is difficult to conceptualize.) Undefined awareness is the
source of the first creation, which is a definition containing awareness and
limited by boundaries. The now-limited-awareness is called consciousness and
often believes that it is existing within boundaries that are not of its own
creation. So now consciousness considers itself separate and different from
undefined awareness. This limited (defined) consciousness may continue to
create within itself, but the limits of its creations are the original limits
established by the first creation.

Existing within limits that you consider beyond your power of creation
is the essence of experience. This is how people come to view themselves as
trapped or subject to definitions not of their own creation.

 

[Panda Termint]

Then the knowing how to know just wasn't all that fucking great, was it?

It's an interesting point. I suspect that the degree of effort put into ensuring that others didn't find out these things was (and remains) rather successful. If you doubt this just look to your current crop of scientologists. Scientologists working their way up the Bridge are primarily interested in "knowing how to know" about themselves and things relating to their personal interactions with others, the whole Game is set up to direct their attention in that direction. An active Public scientologist seldom looks outside the limited sphere of the Auditing Room or Academy except when his attention is being directed elsewhere for some particular CofS purpose.

What about increased awareness and knowingness?

Wasn't there a lot of that supposedly going around with public PCs?

The Anabaptist Jacques

See my answer above. I can only speak from my own experience and tell you what I've heard from others. We (meaning myself and other Exes I've discussed this with) remained blissfully unaware of the CofS' crimes and abuse whilst under the thrall of that group. The CofS has had a lot of practice at covering things up and coming up with believable (to the Believer) explanations of unavoidably exposed oddities. Again, this is evidenced by recent events within the CofS. If this were not so, why would anybody still be there toeing the line?