OT, a trap?

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
OT, operating thetan. Is the concept a trap?

I propose that it can be.

The premise of this is the LRH saying, be able to experience anything and only cause what others can easily experience.

The push of both the old OT levels and the new is the increase in the ability to project intention and be at cause. This is one sided.

Any flow locked in one direction is sure to stick at some point. "Operating" is action, outflow.

Sure it is a great thing to be at cause or even have the ability to be total cause, (if of course your ethics were perfect!). But what about the other side of the equation?

Should not an OT be able to experience anything? Be total effect?

I say yes.

An OT optimally should be able to be total cause or total effect, and also have the wisdom to (or ethics) do so appropriately.

I would be interested in comments that address how the ot levels facilitate this, or could. I see mostly the "resurgence of cause". (granted a missing element in human life).
 
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archetypes

Patron with Honors
OT, operating thetan. Is the concept a trap?

I propose that it can be.

The premise of this is the LRH saying, be able to experience anything and only cause what others can easily experience.

The push of both the old OT levels and the new is the increase in the ability to project intention and be at cause. This is one sided.

Any flow locked in one direction is sure to stick at some point.

Sure it is a great thing to be at cause or even have the ability to be total cause, (if of course your ethics were perfect!). But what about the other side of the equation?

Should not an OT be able to experience anything? Be total effect?

I say yes.

An OT optimally should be able to be total cause or total effect, and also have the wisdom to (or ethics) do so appropriately.

I would be interested in comments that address how the ot levels facilitate this, or could. I see mostly the "resurgence of cause". (granted a missing element in human life).

Thanks for bringing that up and I would agree with you. I've re-visited the concept of OT after hours of auditing engrams by chains to the basic-basic and doing a lot of reading on the side.

GPMs/dichotomies/polarities which are fixed and lodged in the subconscious keep coming to the fore in my auditing and getting dissolved from my personal life so I don't have to as much swing from one extreme to the other and have more freedom of expression. I would suspect that "Cause and Effect" would get handled as dichotomies somewhere in this line of auditing.

Seems like a good preperatory action for the OT drills -- have fewer compulsions to shoot down lightening bolts, even though I'm probably more able to do it now than before (haven't done the drill for that) :)

During engram running I am uncollapsing myself from the varied mock-ups I collapsed myself into and got fixed upon and getting closer and closer to the original me viewpoint. What this adds up to I believe is that a Clear who is a trained OT and stably so, will always be awake to himself as a sovereign static and at the same time can be happily and fully invested in Life.

A sovereign static housewife, I wonder what that's like :eyeroll:
 
OT, operating thetan. Is the concept a trap?

I propose that it can be.

Ummm, Alex, ANY concept is potentially a trap. That's the "problem" with concepts. The more "stuff" that gets mentally "mocked up" the more likely one is to become "fixated" on the "mock ups". All the more so if the concept can be viewed as a "role" or "identity". The associated "havingness" can enhance the tendency to fixate.

If you haven't lately, take a look at the Tao Te Ching.


Mark A. Baker
 
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Thrak

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yes "OT" is definitely a trap. To say that one has cracked the ultimate mystery of the universe and then sell the secret at incredible prices is totally a trap and a fraud.
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yes "OT" is definitely a trap. To say that one has cracked the ultimate mystery of the universe and then sell the secret at incredible prices is totally a trap and a fraud.

It is a trap in that scientology brings a person to identify as a "thing" - an immortal thetan. This gives succur to the ego, the part of the mind that thinks it is a "thing", thinks it is the Self, wishes for survival and is terrified of annhilation.

So a scientologist buys (literally) into Ron's ego promises of Self-survival. Into his promises of existence outside of the body, outside of the universe and even outside of life. Given that for the ego, the body, the universe and life can be sources of threat to its existance, the ego really likes the idea of being "exterior" to these problem sources.

Even more, Hubbard promises the ego it can be "at cause" over the body, universe and life and like Alex says, at best this is a stuck flow.

So a scientologist creates this egoic thing (a thetan), considers himself to be it and mocks up and desires various imagined ideals of survival as this created causative thing. He is therefore trapped in wanting the unattainable.

It is unattainable because it is a stuck flow imbalance. Effects will hit back as a natural re-adjustment of the imbalance. And one thing above all is certain and that is that the ego will perish, so being stuck to a little perisher is just about the worst decision a person can make!

On the mundane side one easily sees this egoic identification as one goes about amongst scientologists. One sees many "big ego" types who are assertive and uncompassionate (at cause). It is plainly visible if one looks. This is the manifestation of Ron's ego trap.

I often suggest wearing the opposite concept as a release from Ron's implanted stuck flow "The highest purpose in the universe is to recieve an effect."

This is easily as glorious and releasing a concept as Hubbard's opposite.

A great releasing process to free one from the ego trap of scientology is:

"Can I allow myself to be an effect?"

"Can I allow myself to be a cause?"

Alternating those back and forwards and allowing any feelings or emotions that get stirred up just to be there without attaching positive or negative opinions to the feeling and then continuing on with the polarity above.

At some point, sooner or later, the whole subject of cause and effect will melt and one will be released. :happydance:

Also a good healthy dose of Eckhart Tolle (the price of a book) is priceless.
 
OT, operating thetan. Is the concept a trap?

I propose that it can be.

The premise of this is the LRH saying, be able to experience anything and only cause what others can easily experience.

The push of both the old OT levels and the new is the increase in the ability to project intention and be at cause. This is one sided.

Any flow locked in one direction is sure to stick at some point. "Operating" is action, outflow.

Sure it is a great thing to be at cause or even have the ability to be total cause, (if of course your ethics were perfect!). But what about the other side of the equation?

Should not an OT be able to experience anything? Be total effect?

I say yes.

An OT optimally should be able to be total cause or total effect, and also have the wisdom to (or ethics) do so appropriately.

I would be interested in comments that address how the ot levels facilitate this, or could. I see mostly the "resurgence of cause". (granted a missing element in human life).

An OT should be able to be total cause OR total effect.........
There's the word "should" again.
Is it possible, desirable, necessary?

There's the word "total" again. From Ron it would have to be TOTAL because he was a totalitarian control freak, with others and possibly himself.

What if, in the end, no matter what path you choose, or how cool you become at being cool in the face of anything, it never gets to TOTAL. You find that life delivers something big or small that shows you, that you just do not like what is going down. Usual solution is to wait for the time that you will be perfect, later, when you are more evolved, etc. Dream up a meaning for it....like, life is teaching you something. Maybe it is not. Maybe what you like or don't like just is that way. Are you perfect now? (Not specifically you, Alex?). Have you made soooo much progress that you can see what a much calmer, more contented person you are? Does that mean you are like that forever now?. Something or somebody giveth, and something or someone taketh away. Don't know what's around the corner. Serenity might only be on loan.
Just rambling.
 

Tiger Lily

Gold Meritorious Patron
Great thread!!! Alex, I'm not very trained or anything, but that was how I was feeling as I was studying Scientology -- I felt like I was getting deeper into a trap -- of course if that came up it was "case" and I needed more auditing/training to handle it. . . vicious spiral.

It is a trap in that scientology brings a person to identify as a "thing" - an immortal thetan. This gives succur to the ego, the part of the mind that thinks it is a "thing", thinks it is the Self, wishes for survival and is terrified of annhilation.

So a scientologist buys (literally) into Ron's ego promises of Self-survival. Into his promises of existence outside of the body, outside of the universe and even outside of life. Given that for the ego, the body, the universe and life can be sources of threat to its existance, the ego really likes the idea of being "exterior" to these problem sources.

Even more, Hubbard promises the ego it can be "at cause" over the body, universe and life and like Alex says, at best this is a stuck flow.

So a scientologist creates this egoic thing (a thetan), considers himself to be it and mocks up and desires various imagined ideals of survival as this created causative thing. He is therefore trapped in wanting the unattainable.

It is unattainable because it is a stuck flow imbalance. Effects will hit back as a natural re-adjustment of the imbalance. And one thing above all is certain and that is that the ego will perish, so being stuck to a little perisher is just about the worst decision a person can make!

On the mundane side one easily sees this egoic identification as one goes about amongst scientologists. One sees many "big ego" types who are assertive and uncompassionate (at cause). It is plainly visible if one looks. This is the manifestation of Ron's ego trap.

I often suggest wearing the opposite concept as a release from Ron's implanted stuck flow "The highest purpose in the universe is to recieve an effect."

This is easily as glorious and releasing a concept as Hubbard's opposite.

A great releasing process to free one from the ego trap of scientology is:

"Can I allow myself to be an effect?"

"Can I allow myself to be a cause?"

Alternating those back and forwards and allowing any feelings or emotions that get stirred up just to be there without attaching positive or negative opinions to the feeling and then continuing on with the polarity above.

At some point, sooner or later, the whole subject of cause and effect will melt and one will be released. :happydance:

Also a good healthy dose of Eckhart Tolle (the price of a book) is priceless.

Lionheart :clap: :clap: Yes!! Great post!! I never thought of a Thetan as an egoic thing, but it IS!! Great observation. This really resonates with me, and helps put it all in perspective. And that would by why Scientology ended up as such a mess.

TL
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
So, how would one go about gaining the ability to be total effect at will, yet not be trapped in it?

It seems we are to some extent trapped at effect by our body considerations, holding us to MEST.

And perhaps we are so much at effect that efforts to rehabilitate cause are the correct directions to get to some balance.

But isn't seeking balance, a buy in to the duality, the GPM of it?

Maybe its all learning, and when experience is total, we pop out of it?

Able to experience anything. (except perhaps our own cause).
 

Pepin

Patron with Honors
So, how would one go about gaining the ability to be total effect at will, yet not be trapped in it?

It is ALWAYS our choice to do any or all of that as creative beings.

It seems we are to some extent trapped at effect by our body considerations, holding us to MEST.

THAT consideration in itself is the trap

And perhaps we are so much at effect that efforts to rehabilitate cause are the correct directions to get to some balance.

This is a reason why it is paramount to truly know thyself as spirit apart from a body to keep perspective when unraveling the tangled web of lies the body speaks.
 

Div6

Crusader
I have 2 comments to this:

1. IN 8-8008 LRH pointed out that is was actually cruel to make a "clear" without educating them in how they came to be trapped in the first place.
Sof if one goes for the key-out of being exterior, and does not further their education as to how they came to be brought so low in the first place, it amounts to nothing more than another addiction.


2. LRH also made clear that Scn and Dianetics were 2 different subjects.
Dn's = body and body PTP's.
Scn = The broad scope of LIFE.

If a person had somatics, etc. It was DN's. Only when they were flying should Scn processes be embarked upon. I think this has become horribly confused. Further, as one studies Level 3 (Change, ARCX's, etc) it has become clearer to me that the idea to be gained there is that LIFE is SENIOR to all the scales in Scn. 0-8. In other words, a person needs to be educated and drilled on all aspects of all of the scales, to then be brought to the point where they realize they are senior (as a life energy creation unit) to all of them. This will return considerable power of choice, widen the possibilities of games, and should also result in an increase in responsibility for one's own condition and the condition of others.

It should also demonstrate that they can occupy any strata of any scale, and change it if they so desire. This should go far towards resolving the "obsessive cause" cases we see all too often.
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
So, how would one go about gaining the ability to be total effect at will, yet not be trapped in it?

It seems we are to some extent trapped at effect by our body considerations, holding us to MEST.

And perhaps we are so much at effect that efforts to rehabilitate cause are the correct directions to get to some balance.

But isn't seeking balance, a buy in to the duality, the GPM of it?

Maybe its all learning, and when experience is total, we pop out of it?

Able to experience anything. (except perhaps our own cause).

If one views cause and effect as opposites then one is stuck in the polarity, the apparency, the illusion.

If one discharges the apparent dichotomy, the balance is not a "buy in" to the duality, rather the duality disappears. This is true release.

I notice you used the words "trap" and "holding" these words denote a fixed position in the dichotomous illusion. Once released on cause and effect there is no "trap" and one is not "held".

Poor Ron was fixed in the polarity and was in must-cause and resist-effect. This is scientology, it is not a released viewpoint.

Try actually doing what I wrote, rather than thinking about it, experience release on cause/effect:

A great releasing process to free one from the ego trap of scientology is:

"Can I allow myself to be an effect?"

"Can I allow myself to be a cause?"

Alternating those back and forwards and allowing any feelings or emotions that get stirred up just to be there without attaching positive or negative opinions to the feeling and then continuing on with the polarity above.

At some point, sooner or later, the whole subject of cause and effect will melt and one will be released. :happydance:
 
Another deconstrution method is to replace cause with install and effect with result. There is more to lila than installing results.
 
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