Ot III and beyond sources plagiarized from

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
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This post is to address some common misconceptions held by never ins , press , Scientologists and often even exes and critics . Specifically regarding the OT III story and influences that extend all through Scientology.

I personally find the more I look at Scientology materials closely ( and listen to advice on this from Jon Atack and Arnie Lerma on where to look ) the more I ALWAYS find the same exact conclusion and concur with them on this issue : ALL Dianetics and Scientology materials are actually plagiarized and repackaged from other - usually earlier- sources that are not credited .They go through the same process over and over of getting altered for concealing where they came from . I call it filing off the serial numbers - change them just enough to make them look slightly different . Later Hubbard stressed making them fit and support all the framework and lies his sci-fi spiritual mish-mosh was built on but primarily he stressed hiding that he was not actually the source of anything . He called himself source as a countermeasure against discovery - it is one of the first things a Scientologist must accept about him and the subject to be accepted by the cult .

A case in point is how many see the OT III story and think Hubbard made it up while drunk and addicted to drugs and it and he are insane . Well that is almost right except for one part that becomes more significant the more you understand it .

He stole OT III entirely from other sources - even the auditing and the name Xemu and the spaceships transporting evil spirits to Earth and binding them in clusters to humans which require exorcism - ALL of it .People often focus on how silly the story seems to grown ups . Yeah , it is bizarre bullshit and to my mind- like all the content of Dianetics and Scientology -100% false and Hubbard always knew he was lying about it .

The thing I want to get folks to look at is that it is not his idea , not even a little bit and he stole it from several sources and combined them to make this insane cult doctrine and the procedure to handle the BTs ( Body Thetans you exorcise in OT III and above they, are alien spirits from 75 million years ago flown to Earth in spaceships and blown up with H-bombs in volcanoes then implanted and stuck in people to drive us crazy in Scientology doctrine - hey I did not write it and do not believe it ).

He stole almost all of this from Oahspe an insane cult text from an earlier cult that has been described as a mind control cult ...this is feeling familiar somehow... anyway this insane cult text has many elements in common with OT III and in fact upon close examination ( good luck it is truly bizarre and jarring mentally to read - and I spent thousands of hours getting indoctrinated in Hubbard's cult doctrine so..if I feel that way most people will find this stuff incomprehensible as it is ).




I am going to try to very briefly use a small sampling of quotes to show this but to really objectively determine it I recommend one learn the content of Ot III and the other OT levels and how the auditing is done ( if you do not already know it well ) and then read Oahspe or at least some descriptions of it and key sections and quotes on your own to independently decide if I am right , part right or dead wrong for yourself .

Oahspe: A New Bible is a book published in 1882, purporting to contain "new revelations" from "...the Embassadors of the angel hosts of heaven prepared and revealed unto man in the name of Jehovih..." It was produced by an American dentist, John Ballou Newbrough (1828–1891), who reported it to have been written by automatic writing, making it one of a number of 19th-century spiritualist works attributed to that practice. Oahspe defines adherents of the disciplines expounded in Oahspe as "Faithists".

Oahspe comprises a series of related interior books chronicling earth and its heavenly administrations, as well as setting forth teachings for modern times. Included are over 100 drawings.The title page of Oahspe describes its contents with these words:
A New Bible in the Words of Jehovih and His Angel Ambassadors. A Sacred History of the Dominions of the Higher and Lower Heavens on the Earth for the Past Twenty-Four Thousand Years together with a Synopsis of the Cosmogony of the Universe; the Creation of Planets; the Creation of Man; the Unseen Worlds; the Labor and Glory of Gods and Goddesses in the Etherean Heavens; with the New Commandments of Jehovih to Man of the Present Day.​
"Jehovih", "The Great Spirit", "Ormazd", "Egoquim", "Agoquim", "Eloih", "The I Am", "Jehovah" and other names are used throughout Oahspe as the name of the Creator.
According to Oahspe: the Creator is both masculine and feminine. Om is one of the names used to refer to the feminine (mother) aspect. Other references include, "The All Person", "The unseen" and "The Everpresent", "The All Light", "The Highest Light". God and Lord are titles of office for a person in the spirit realm who began life as mortal/in corporeal form (spirit within a body). The Creator is all and was all and forever will be all; He/She was never born and is beyond all Gods. The Creator is our father and mother, and all that are and were born are our brothers and sisters.
The Oahspe has been stated as being the first known reference to the term "starship".

Basic teachings Oahspe emphasized service to others; each person is graded according to service to others. Each individual, group and nation is either in ascension or descension; sooner or later, all ascend, rising in grade. The higher one's grade, the better are the conditions within one's own soul, and the better the place awaiting one in heaven.
According to Oahspe, when mortals die their spirits continue to live, regardless of who they worshiped, or even whether they disbelieved in an afterlife.The spirit realm becomes their new home, which is called heaven, and the individual spirit is called an angel. There are unorganized heavens close to or on the earth. Also starting there - and linking to the highest heavens - are the organized heavens. Both types of heavens are accessible to mortals. If a portion of heaven lives in a state of chaos and delights in evil, that portion is called hell.
An angel must subsist for a season after death somewhere along a continuum of delightful to abysmally wretched conditions. The heavenly place where angels initially live is determined by what their habits were as mortals; as well as by their aspirations and diet. Selfish behavior, low thoughts, or eating animal derived food will place a newborn angel in the lowest level, being on the earth. Evil oriented persons enter heaven into hellish conditions. Nevertheless, all in descension eventually turn around and ascend upward to more delightful places within an organized heaven, whose chief is called God. God is an advanced angel ordained into office for a season.
The morphologically plural name Elohim, often translated as god-singular in the Old Testament, is not used to mean the Creator throughout the main body of Oahspe; the singular Hebrew terms "Jehovih" (SHD 3069) and "Eloih" are used instead.
Arrangement of Oahspe According to Oahspe, the history of humankind is marked by a series of progressions. These lessons come in cycles: advancement followed by recession, being in turn succeeded by other cycles of improvement and regression. Cycles exist within cycles, but one important cycle, used in improving the grade of humanity, is a 3000 year cycle (average), and it is this cycle around which the books in Oahspe are organized.
The first few books of Oahspe lay the groundwork for understanding the nature of the work. This merges into a concise history taking the reader up to the present time, the new era. Separate from the history books are a series of books intended to illume for the reader the requirements of humanity for this day and age.
An interesting graphological characteristic of Oahspe is that a number of its sub-books are printed on pages divided in two, top to bottom. In these, the top half of the page contains a narrative of celestial events, while the bottom half describes the corresponding events on Earth.

Cycles The text describes cyclical events that occur within a range of greater and smaller cycles. For instance, according to Oahspe, the earth is traveling with the sun and its planets through regions of space in a large circuit of 4,700,000 years, which is divided into sections of 3,000 years average, which also occur within larger cycles of 24,000 years and 72,000 years, and so on. Each of these regions has variations in density and other qualities, and so, engender varying conditions that the Earth encounters. Also, explanation is given as to the rise and fall of civilizations.
above quotes From Wikipedia



The Real Wall of Fire
I doubt even that Hubbard's purportedly death-defying 'discovery' of the secret OT Level III, "The Wall of Fire" was even an original idea, much less discovered as part of any research of any kind. You will find in the 1882 edition of OAHSPE "A Sacred History of the Dominions of the Higher and Lower Heavens on Earth" there is a reference to "druijas" the term used for spirit entities, being gathered up from all over the galaxy, packaged in 'vessels' and transported in 'winged space ships' to earth by the billions. This is called, in this book, "The Wall of Fire". The identical name, for an almost identical story line, that Hubbard sells you as Operating Thetan Section Three. It is also amusing to note that Dianetics, Hubbard refers to "automatic writing", and it just so happens that this same book OAHSPE, is claimed to have been written by "automatic writing".
From Lermanet.com


Now to quotes from Oahspe itself .

And the star of Fiatisi's etherean ship was stationed near the earth, that she might the better behold the deliverance of the spirits that were to be freed by the submersion of the land of Wagga; and of these spirits there were upward of twenty-four billion four hundred millions, of whom more than three billion were fetals and familiars and spirits in chaos. ( this is the basis for the millions and billions of Bts aka Drujas and has spaceships in it as well like OT III )

Now will I carry away their heaven and earth, and they shall be seen no more forever. But the drujas and fetals shall be carried to Hautuon and cast into walls of fire. And they shall be divided up into groups; kin shall be torn away from kin, and friend from friend, and mother from daughter, and father from son; for they are become as absorbents, sucking one another continually. (this establishes the term wall of fire famous throughout Scientology and that the BTs are abhorrent or very messed up spirits )

And the walls of fire shall go up around them without ceasing, and they shall not escape. And they that guard them shall keep them from one another, that they shall do no evil. Neither shall they sleep nor rest, but be stirred up and made to know that they are alive, and can exist independent of fetal (sucking). ( this shows the wall of fire as eternal unceasing imprisonment without relief )

What more is the earth (Pan) to these spirits of evil and darkness? What more is their first heaven than a place of perpetual devouring? Have they not made it a place of everlasting destruction? They visit their evils upon mortals; the young child cannot escape them, nor the middle-aged, nor the old man nor old woman. ( this shows we are all supposed to be subject to them regardless of if we are young or old , good or bad )

And the star of Fiatisi's etherean ship was stationed near the earth, that she might the better behold the deliverance of the spirits that were to be freed by the submersion of the land of Wagga; and of these spirits there were upward of twenty-four billion four hundred millions, of whom more than three billion were fetals and familiars and spirits in chaos. ( this has a spaceship near earth from somewhere else earlier and many Bts - just like in OT III )

On Drujas

JEHOVIH had said: All angels below the first resurrection, save infants, shall be known in heaven and on earth as drujas, for they are such as have not capacity in knowledge or strength of individuality.
2. As there are on earth paupers and vagrants and beggars and criminals who are druks, so are there, in hada, spirits that are a great trial to both mortals and angels.
3. And they inhabit mortals and the houses that mortals dwell in. Some mortals have one or two of them; some a score; and some have hundreds of them. Some of them continue to inhabit mortal dwellings long after mortals have abandoned them, even till they fall in ruins. And whoso cometh into such house, the drujas come upon him to live on him and with him. ( this is identical to the idea of many BTs being in and on one needing removal )
4. And if a mortal have greater wisdom and strength of soul than the drujas, he ruleth over them, to a good purpose, reforming them and raising them up out of darkness and helplessness. ( this relates to Hubbard's ideas on"higher tone" people not being subject to "demon circuits" as much as others in Dianetics and the raising up out of darkness is the auditing in the OT levels )
5. But if the drujas have greater power than the mortal, then they pull him down in darkness, making of him a man to lust after the affairs of earth. Sometimes they help man to riches and great power; and if he have sons and daughters who are brought up in idleness and ease and luxury, then the drujas fasten upon them, leading them in their own way, of lust and debauchery, or hard-heartedness.(this is the" dwindling spiral "idea and "contagion of abberation" too and back to the tone scale again )

On some occasion the drujas rule over their mortal, and his neighbors call him mad, and they send him to a mad-house, which is to them a city of delight. When mortals engage in war, slaying one another, the drujas have great merriment, taking part, by inspiring the mortals into the conflict.( this goes to the idea that Bts are the cause of war and strife etc. all through human history )

Drujas rule over mortals more than mortals rule over them. It was because of their abundance and their power to do evil, that Jehovih commanded His chosen to marry amongst themselves; and to withdraw from other peoples, and make themselves a separate and exclusive people, that they might not be inhabited with drujas.( this is an important part of Hubbard's con - he teaches starting with the "wog" doctrine and it escalates the further one goes in Scientology that Scientologists are more aware , sane and less evil than all others and by the time one joins the Sea Org they are taught they are the ONLY sane beings left on Earth ! Yep , a separate sane group of people to redeem the world via any means necessary )

When a mortal dieth, and he had dominion over his drujas, not only his spirit will rise to the first resurrection, but his drujas also, whereupon they are all delivered into light.
21. When a mortal dieth, and his drujas had dominion over him, then his spirit becometh a druj also, and he becometh one with them, fastening on whoso cometh in the way; but if it be in a house and no mortal cometh, upon whom they can fasten, then they remain in that house. And here they may remain a year or ten years or a hundred years, in darkness, knowing nothing, doing nothing, until other angels come and deliver them, which is often no easy matter, requiring bodily force to carry them away.( this is another key concept fundamental to all of Scientology - that spirits will degrade and become BTs without the OT levels and thus hold down other spirits in a group death spiral into blindness , amnesia , pain and eternal damnation and oblivion that is inescapable if Scientology does not clear earth NOW )

Jehovih gave certain signs unto both angels and mortals, whereby it shall be known both on earth and in heaven which is master over the other, a mortal or his drujas, and, consequently, such matter determineth to what place the spirit of a man will most readily fall after death

If the mortal, on the other hand, shall have risen to control himself over these habits and desires, then will he be indeed, at the time of death, already entered into the first resurrection; and the drujas, if he have any, will be delivered also.( this is key to the idea that on OT II one may free BTs and redeem them to a state of higher freedom and sanity )

And whilst it is burning, and the drujas distracted with the show, the angels of power come upon them and carry them off, hundreds of millions of them. And the mortals are thus cleared of them that would have bound them in darkness and death.( here we have the term clearing which is used in both Dianetics and Scientology - I am certain Hubbard actually repackaged this and spread the occult ideas he got here and from Aleister Crowley ALL throughout Dianetics and Scientology covertly )

To accomplish the resurrection of the drujas dwelling with mortals on the earth, had Lika, Son of Jehovih, appointed At'yesonitus, with his twelve generals, very Gods in wisdom and power, each one to a certain division of the earth.

Gessica had the vessels constructed with walls of fire around the margins, to prevent the drujas escaping. And there were built in all four hundred vessels, each capable of carrying one hundred million drujas.( here these alien spirits are captured and placed in space ships with the walls of fire to imprison them and they get transported to Earth and bound invisibly to all the people of earth )

The manner of driving the drujas into them was by leaving part of the fire-wall open, and by fire-brands in the ethereans' hands cutting off sections of drujas from the hells. In this way the ethereans drove the drujas into the vessels, whereupon the doorway in the wall of the ship was closed. And then the workers of the ship put it under way and carried them up to Hao-yusta, where the Gods and Goddesses received them, placing the drujas in pens, walled with fire, where they could be treated and restored to reason, after which they were to be liberated in installments, according to their safety.
4. In the first year Gessica delivered from the hells of hada five thousand million drujas; but in the second year he delivered thirty-five thousand millions; and in the third year, sixteen thousand millions. After this the work went slowly on, for the balance of the hells were mostly in knots, some of them hundreds of millions. And these had to be delivered individually, requiring great labor, and power, and wisdom, and dexterity.
( here we have knots or clusters of BTs and the tremendous amounts of them stated to be on Earth described )

above quotes from Oahspe parenthetical remarks by myself

Next is some of Hubbard's repackaging of some of these ideas for his fraud ( still false ideas but being sold as another brand by another man )
Now all of a sudden we take apart the composite theta body which is you, into its component theta bodies, and we take these apart as regard to the experience, and we find the potentiality of which a central theta line is capable.
…So you just make sure that you differentiate from entity to entity and try to get them unstuck off the track very neatly and nicely and get the theta being back in power.
…If you have a psychotic entity on your hands… you have to audit this entity…
Now, here you have, then, a simple problem of finding out where he is stuck in the track, and in what kind of an incident he’s stuck.
First, what entity is stuck, when is he stuck, and run it out…
And one after another, you spot and straighten up these entities.
- HCL-21 ANATOMY OF THE THETA BODY 16 April 1952 Hubbard quotes
Hubbard — Saint Hill Special Briefing Course lecture The Free Being 9 July 1963 –
Just a few trillion years ago the whole confounded place was all blown up, the suns were disorganized, planets all thrown to hell and everything else. Well, the little guys with the airplanes showed up again, and they still could put up the theta traps for this boy .
Hubbard quotes- they recast key elements in sci fi framework to fit the rest of Scientology


Next a quoted section about Qahspe from the publisher to help briefly describe it

demon spirits, engrafting spirits who live on mortals, teaching re-incarnation; spirit powers over mortals; chaotic spirits on battle-fields; lost spirits in haunted houses; obsessions, entrancement, spirit manifestations, how to get them; how to determine what realm a spirit belongs to, and who he is; how spirits deceive mortals; how selfish spirits in the lower heavens make slaves of their dupes after death and entrance into heaven; how to acquire prophecy and seer-ship; the delusion of the magnetic sleep; of spirit control; how to know the nature of spiritual communications; how mortals are graded by the Gods, and their status known in heaven; how nations fall; why cities are burnt down; how spirits can cast pestilence and contagious diseases; how the offspring of mortals are controlled; how any one may determine into what realm of heaven he will enter after death; how to determine the time of his bondage and of his emancipation; how to determine the place in heaven where a king or queen will go; where a rich man will go; the length of the time of bondage of any of them in the lower heavens; how any one may discover his own grade, as to where he will go; how they work themselves out of bondage in the lowest heavens; the necessity of purifying ourselves in flesh and in thoughts before we are companionable to pure angels; rites and ceremonies; discipline and communities in heaven; ships in the higher heavens that carry thousands of millions of angels in the etherean seas, and on excursions of thousands of years; the great firmament, etherea, filled with thousands of millions of etherean worlds, habitable within and without; the labors of Gods and Goddesses; the insignificance of our earth and its heavens, atmospherea; what is meant by higher and lower heavens; how mortals can attain to receive communications from the first resurrection, from the second resurrection and from the third, and even from Gods and Goddesses; what is purification; how to purity one's self, in flesh, and in spirit; how to know when a spirit communication is from the second resurrection or from the first; how to raise children;
( notably this has key ideas for Scientology often in differing original forms - BTs , being bonded to them , grades , BTs causing illness and misfortune , purification , working one's way up grades and differing levels of awareness, a heaven[ outer space ] full of populated worlds and many spaceships flying through there in the distant past , the insignificance of Earth and the OTs out in the universe making and controlling worlds, how to raise children , how to attain a higher spiritual state and escape a lower one - is this the basis for a lot of Scientology or am I off somehow ? )

quote from
The Publisher's Synopsis of Oahspe, The New Bible Book of Es, Daughter of Jehovih Now a couple more quotes from Hubbard on his repackaged version of this to compare :

But listen, you’re living in a universe which is crawling with this type of stuff. And planet Earth was a dumping ground to end all dumping grounds. Actually, the end of OT III is when those BTs and clusters that are easily put into communication are gone. It’s not when all BTs in the whole universe that ever will be, are gone.
You’ve never had any pcs like that unless you’ve worked in an institution and have seen some inmate living in a totally lifeless state, unaware of anything. NED for OTs handles this condition on BTs and clusters which existed without being suspected except for the occasional clue of a strange picture or a wild somatic.
[h=5]- Ron Hubbard, HCO BULLETIN OF 15 SEPTEMBER 1978, ISSUE I, NED for OTs Series 1, NED FOR OTs RD THEORY OF, p2 section MENTAL TRANSMISSION[/h] [h=5][/h] [h=5][/h]
ot_iii_oct_2_1968_-_21_nearby_stars.png

Ron Hubbard

Now this is the real story of Ot III and Scientology - plagiarized cult ideas that were used in an earlier mind control cult to delude and abuse followers . That is where Hubbard's "science" and "religion " come from - they are fakes no science no religion ever . It is a CULT made from earlier cult doctrine with some pseudoscience mixed in to fool modern audiences and mind control from hypnotism , the occult , psychology and other sources like Hitler and plagiarized rhetorical methods and sublime writing to entice and enthrall victims . The idea to get is not that OT III and other ideas in Scientology are silly or weird - they are stolen and calculated to function as they have in earlier practices - to confuse then control people into becoming slaves covertly . Some ideas were less insidious in their original form but all become pernicious in Hubbard's twisted combination to enslave and abuse . And I have yet to find one that produces any of the miracles or enlightenment Scientology claims . And I was in for 25 years and have known hundreds of Scientologists and met probably thousands . So please help get out the word Scientology is not weird ideas Hubbard pulled out of his ass that suckers fell for . It is entirely ideas that persuaded people in the past that have been taken and combined intentionally to persuade them now . It is not true and Hubbard never sought or found truth with it - he always sought a way to covertly confuse then control THAT is what Scientology is . Furthermore , If you look at Crowley and Hitler's doctrine and practices and know Scientology well you can see he used their ideas from the beginning to the very end consistently . Not exactly the role models I want to base my life around - that is why he had to hide them . I invite end encourage all exes and indies and Scientologists to consider these ideas and look more at these two for further proof - or lack thereof .
 

ethercat

Cat in flight
ALL Dianetics and Scientology materials are actually plagiarized and repackaged from other - usually earlier- sources that are not credited .

I just wanted to say that unless Hubbard did actually have OT powers - which I don't believe for one nanosecond - they would have to be from earlier sources.

:carryon:
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
<SNIP>.( this is another key concept fundamental to all of Scientology - that spirits will degrade and become BTs without the OT levels and thus hold down other spirits in a group death spiral into blindness , amnesia , pain and eternal damnation and oblivion that is inescapable if Scientology does not clear earth NOW )

When you say all of Scientology - would that include those below the level of clear?

Thanks.
 

Dave B.

Maximus Ultimus Mostimus
I just wanted to say that unless Hubbard did actually have OT powers - which I don't believe for one nanosecond - they would have to be from earlier sources.

:carryon:

Some questions come to mind for me.

Newbrough. Dentist. Messing around with Nitrous Oxide?? Did nitrous exist at that time?

Hubbard had his encounter with the Askashic Records after a nitrous dental thing.

Wallace Ford. Half-British half-Maori immigrant to the US Founder author of Nation of Islam Detroit USA circa 1930. The NOI cosmology is very similar to Hubbards, with time frames like 66 trillion years, labs where bodies are created, etc etc. The NOI used to hand out promo publicly in the 1970's with all the data on it. I do not know about now. It may be considered "classifed". Anyway, Ford or Fard as he was called related this upper-level info to Elijah Muhammed and at some point "disappeared". I always thought he was one of those guys who got into OT3 materials and died from it.

Did Ford ever have a nitrous dental operation? Honest question.

I think calling Hubbard a plagarizer is not really useful.

This "OT3" information seems to be out there. Seems to be from several different sources. Is it your incident? I don't know, depends if you were here, right? Seems to be Hubbards incident, for sure.

Affects the inhabitants of 21 stars in the local area... etc. hardly a universal plague. Implanters up to implanter games seems to me. And in my opinion a function of living in such a ghetto, "eastside" kind of star area. You can laugh at that if you want but from everything I've seen it's the fucking Wild West out here.

Yes, I think it happened. How it happened is open to interpretation.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
The crazy bit is that if the story were actually fact automatic writing would bring it out. There would be automatic writers all over the place coming up with the same story. The story would be part of folk mythology round the world. There would be stories in the Andes, among the Bushmen and the Shamans in Siberia would tell of it. I have never heard anything like this anywhere else apart from this oddball Victorian abnormality, comic books and then Mr H.
 

Dave B.

Maximus Ultimus Mostimus
The crazy bit is that if the story were actually fact automatic writing would bring it out. There would be automatic writers all over the place coming up with the same story. The story would be part of folk mythology round the world. There would be stories in the Andes, among the Bushmen and the Shamans in Siberia would tell of it. I have never heard anything like this anywhere else apart from this oddball Victorian abnormality, comic books and then Mr H.

And Wallace Ford.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
I have a question to ask re all of the above.

The question is: So what?

The validity or workability or usefulness of OT-3 has nothing whatever to do with its origins - whether they be Hubbard himself or Crowley or Oaspe or Rosicrucian or or hypnotism or the manual of psychiatry. None of it is of any relevance at all.

All that is relevant is: Can a person make gains (and I mean gains according to his own perception of what gains could be) by doing OT-3?

If he/she does then it is relevant and worthwhile for him.

If he doesn't then it was not worthwhile.

And that is all there is to it.
 

Leland

Crusader
I have a question to ask re all of the above.

The question is: So what?

The validity or workability or usefulness of OT-3 has nothing whatever to do with its origins - whether they be Hubbard himself or Crowley or Oaspe or Rosicrucian or or hypnotism or the manual of psychiatry. None of it is of any relevance at all.

All that is relevant is: Can a person make gains (and I mean gains according to his own perception of what gains could be) by doing OT-3?

If he/she does then it is relevant and worthwhile for him.

If he doesn't then it was not worthwhile.

And that is all there is to it.

This is just plain stupid.

The entire structure and the reason for existing at all .....for the Sea Org.....is OT 3.

Your post above...."and that is all there is to it" is extremely short sighted.....

Xenu probably came from a Comic Book....and some public celebration on Las Palmas....that has been talked about here.....not to mention LRH's drug addled brain.....accounts for incident 1 and 2.......Geeze....


There is simply no archaeological nor geological proof...that OT 3 occurred....besides the absurdity of it ...in the first place...

I'm not going to say more....
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
This is just plain stupid.

The entire structure and the reason for existing at all .....for the Sea Org.....is OT 3.

Your post above...."and that is all there is to it" is extremely short sighted.....

Xenu probably came from a Comic Book....and some public celebration on Las Palmas....that has been talked about here.....not to mention LRH's drug addled brain.....accounts for incident 1 and 2.......Geeze....


There is simply no archaeological nor geological proof...that OT 3 occurred....besides the absurdity of it ...in the first place...

I'm not going to say more....

I think the point is that it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference if it is fiction if 'running the incident' created OTs, as it doesn't make super beings but anxious financially raped beings then there is no need to dig up volcanoes looking for nineteen fifties aircraft.
 

Gib

Crusader
I have a question to ask re all of the above.

The question is: So what?

The validity or workability or usefulness of OT-3 has nothing whatever to do with its origins - whether they be Hubbard himself or Crowley or Oaspe or Rosicrucian or or hypnotism or the manual of psychiatry. None of it is of any relevance at all.

All that is relevant is: Can a person make gains (and I mean gains according to his own perception of what gains could be) by doing OT-3?

If he/she does then it is relevant and worthwhile for him.

If he doesn't then it was not worthwhile.

And that is all there is to it.

I"ll have to agree with Leland, although I know what you are saying.

But, what about that little ole scientology axiom of viewing something thoroughly will as-is it,

or the exact truth is the exact time, place, form and event?

So, how can it be not true if one is to as-is?

Now you are saying it doesn't matter if the event of OT3 was true or not? And it only matters if a person got a gain or not. That's the same as a placebo.
 

Gib

Crusader
When you say all of Scientology - would that include those below the level of clear?

Thanks.

No.

People below the the level of clear do not know the story. It's a secret and the only hint of it is Hubbards taped communication known as RJ67 released to the general scientology public. Hubbard calls it the "wall of fire".

This RJ67 is basically a mystery sandwich communication as well as a sublime writing of a lofty writing to create awe and wonder in a scientologist below the level of clear (and even above clear).

Here is a reference of sublime writing (1897):

https://books.google.com/books?id=r...=onepage&q=sublime and belles lettres&f=false
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
This is just plain stupid.

The entire structure and the reason for existing at all .....for the Sea Org.....is OT 3.

Your post above...."and that is all there is to it" is extremely short sighted.....

Xenu probably came from a Comic Book....and some public celebration on Las Palmas....that has been talked about here.....not to mention LRH's drug addled brain.....accounts for incident 1 and 2.......Geeze....


There is simply no archaeological nor geological proof...that OT 3 occurred....besides the absurdity of it ...in the first place...

I'm not going to say more....


This is an interesting reply.

So the entire reason for the Sea Org existing at all is the OT-3 incident, is it? I would say not. For those who are trapped within the Sea Org mindset perhaps it is. But that is just the freebie bit of "status" that LRH duped them into buying. For those outside it - it's all a big maybe.

Is it comic book short sightedness? I don't think so. Consider: One of the very effective methods of getting a guy to run past lives - when he can't - is to get him to run imaginary incidents. Science of Survival has something on this in it. Get the guy to imagine where he might have been and what might have happened to him and run that. You'ld be amazed at how soon he gets into something that moves the TA, that produces real somatics in the session and that when run standardly produces huge relief for the guy. So was it all really imaginary?

And then there is Jung and his dream symbolism. Running so called phoney incidents which may or may not be true can still have the preclear using them as symbolic representations for something that might have happened to him at some time. And again, running it produces relief and cognitions.

So go ahead and run it, I say. If there's gains then the preclear benefits.

I truly have no idea whether or not the OT-3 incident happened or not. I don't give a shit one way or the other. But I have had numerous people whom I C/Sed through it and all of them made gains. Me included. So what the hell. Do it. Maybe there was something like it, maybe it was exactly like LRH says. maybe there was something totally different. Who knows? Not me.

As for expecting archaeological or geological proof - now you're in comic book territory. Some years ago National Geographic magazine sent a dive team to Bikini atoll to see what the underwater landscape looked like after the 100 plus nukes that were exploded there in the 1950s. Surprise surprise they found no trace of anything that indicated that anything untoward had ever happened there. And this after only 40 or 50 years. If you expect anything to be there after all the alleged millions of years since the incident then you're dreaming. There is an Iridium layer of off-planet origin in the geological strata that occurred at round about that time but that certainly proves nothing.

So I say again. Whether Hubs dubbed it in or whether he plagiarized it from somewhere else or whether it is just Sci-Fi bullshit that he wrote to get guys in the Sea Org to have an enormous galactic sense of mission - who cares?

All I care is that guys make gains from the auditing they get.
 
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Gib

Crusader
This is an interesting reply.

So the entire reason for the Sea Org existing at all is the OT-3 incident, is it? I would say not. For those who are trapped within the Sea Org mindset perhaps it is. But that is just the freebie bit of "status" that LRH duped them into buying. For those outside it - it's all a big maybe.

Is it comic book short sightedness? I don't think so. Consider: One of the very effective methods of getting a guy to run past lives - when he can't - is to get him to run imaginary incidents. Science of Survival has something on this in it. Get the guy to imagine where he might have been and what might have happened to him and run that. You'ld be amazed at how soon he gets into something that moves the TA, that produces real somatics in the session and that when run standardly produces huge relief for the guy. So was it all really imaginary?

And then there is Jung and his dream symbolism. Running so called phoney incidents which may or may not be true can still have the preclear using them as symbolic representations for something that might have happened to him at some time. And again, running it produces relief and cognitions.

So go ahead and run it, I say. If there's gains then the preclear benefits.

I truly have no idea whether or not the OT-3 incident happened or not. I don't give a shit one way or the other. But I have had numerous people whom I C/Sed through it and all of them made gains. Me included. So what the hell. Do it. Maybe there was something like it, maybe it was exactly like LRH says. maybe there was something totally different. Who knows? Not me.

As for expecting archaeological or geological proof - now your're are in comic book territory. Some years ago National Geographic magazine sent a dive team to Bikini atoll to see what the underwater landscape looked like after the 100 plus nukes that were exploded there in the 1950s. Surprise surprise they found no trace of anything that indicated that anything untoward had ever happened there. And this after only 40 or 50 years. If you expect anything to be there after all the alleged millions of years since the incident then you're dreaming. There is an Iridium layer of off-planet origin in the geological strata that occurred at round about that time but that certainly proves nothing.

So I say again. Whether Hubs dubbed it in or whether he plagiarized it from somewhere else or whether it is just Sci-Fi bullshit that he wrote to get guys in the Sea Org to have an enormous galactic sense of mission - who cares?

All I care is that guys make gains from the auditing they get.

and if they do not gains,

what will you do?
 

Leland

Crusader
This is an interesting reply.

So the entire reason for the Sea Org existing at all is the OT-3 incident, is it? I would say not. For those who are trapped within the Sea Org mindset perhaps it is. But that is just the freebie bit of "status" that LRH duped them into buying. For those outside it - it's all a big maybe.

Is it comic book short sightedness? I don't think so. Consider: One of the very effective methods of getting a guy to run past lives - when he can't - is to get him to run imaginary incidents. Science of Survival has something on this in it. Get the guy to imagine where he might have been and what might have happened to him and run that. You'ld be amazed at how soon he gets into something that moves the TA, that produces real somatics in the session and that when run standardly produces huge relief for the guy. So was it all really imaginary?

And then there is Jung and his dream symbolism. Running so called phoney incidents which may or may not be true can still have the preclear using them as symbolic representations for something that might have happened to him at some time. And again, running it produces relief and cognitions.

So go ahead and run it, I say. If there's gains then the preclear benefits.

I truly have no idea whether or not the OT-3 incident happened or not. I don't give a shit one way or the other. But I have had numerous people whom I C/Sed through it and all of them made gains. Me included. So what the hell. Do it. Maybe there was something like it, maybe it was exactly like LRH says. maybe there was something totally different. Who knows? Not me.

As for expecting archaeological or geological proof - now your're are in comic book territory. Some years ago National Geographic magazine sent a dive team to Bikini atoll to see what the underwater landscape looked like after the 100 plus nukes that were exploded there in the 1950s. Surprise surprise they found no trace of anything that indicated that anything untoward had ever happened there. And this after only 40 or 50 years. If you expect anything to be there after all the alleged millions of years since the incident then you're dreaming. There is an Iridium layer of off-planet origin in the geological strata that occurred at round about that time but that certainly proves nothing.

So I say again. Whether Hubs dubbed it in or whether he plagiarized it from somewhere else or whether it is just Sci-Fi bullshit that he wrote to get guys in the Sea Org to have an enormous galactic sense of mission - who cares?

All I care is that guys make gains from the auditing they get.

My rebuttal:

Well....Earth is not all like a atoll in the Pacific Ocean.

LRH...on talking about OT 3 and Teegeack....If I remember correctly said that this planet had approximately 75 BILLION people on it....PLUS...I would imagine....all the others....brought here on space ships that looked like DC 3s....as that is what OT 3 is about....

He stated that there were major metropolitan areas...(cities all over earth...) There would have to have been MASSIVE infrastructure to support 75 billion people on this planet. Not one bit of proof has been found of this....by anyone.

He stated that Sicily had a major city....(these cities he spoke about...I imagine had huge skyscrapers....)

Greece...and then Rome.....have built all over Sicily in ancient times....American troops invaded Italy via Sicily during WWII.....Modern Italy has built all over Sicily. Sicily is a chunk of rock. There is are no ancient remains of a "space alien" city on Sicily.....

And further more......there was no Sicily 75 million years ago.....!!

http://australianmuseum.net.au/image/map-of-world-late-cretaceous

LRH apparently was not aware of, or did not take into consideration tectonic plate shifting...or continents moving....from 75 million years ago....

LRH says "Fifth Invader Force" ran Egypt.....................BULLSHIT!

Why are pyramids all over earth...? Because that is the only architectural form that ancients could build that could be built tall.....

Egyptians did not even have iron....let alone steel. They cut the rocks with copper tools and cut them with copper saws with abrasives....

That "Chariots of the Gods" guy....pulled a big con. Sure it is popular, and many people believe....but there is not one iota of proof...after all these decades.
 

Leland

Crusader
Many people have spent decades in Scientology.....to even get to OT 3.

The entire purpose of the Sea Org...was to "protect and deliver OT 3."

Yet....with this huge outlay of effort and work and blood and sweat and tears....and dodging the cops and.....protecting the structure of the "church" ......all to deliver the "upper bridge"..........

What did HubTard do.....???????

He apparently jotted off.....a couple pages of a bullshit story....and sold it to us.....

After all the time and effort to get to OT 3....to pay for it.....to probably move to Los Angels or some other location that offers it.....what do you get....?

Some couple pages of confused writting.....apparently just written down ..."off the cuff".......

NO DETAIL. NO FACTS.....NO PROOF. Absolutely nothing scientific..... And we are talking about some "supposedly real..." for which proof could be found...I suppose....somewhere.

NO thorough well laid out writing about it at all.....

What he wrote has holes big enough to throw an elephant through them....

Yet....you are told "this is DEADLY" material to read....!!

If it were "DEADLY", don't you think he would have put a bit more effort into it.......FOR US?????????????

AND,,,in all the decades since the release of OT3......has the "Church" done one thing to prove it?????

The Cult now has 1.7 BILLION dollars in the bank.

Don't you think that after all these decades....they could have set up an expedition to go to some location...or several locations....and drilled a hole...or dug a hole someplace...and say....HEY LOOK....Here is part of an ancient "advanced" civilization.....???????

BUT NO!! They have not.

And they have not....because there was not one.

The OT 3 story is a lie.....

It is just another of Hub Tubs science fiction stories.....

Hells Bells.....he spent more effort and time on one science fiction story he sold.....than he did on the OT 3 story....

AND IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT DISCOVERY OF ALL TIME.......

BULL SHIT. ITS ALL BULLSHIT

IT IS A CON JOB.
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Consider: One of the very effective methods of getting a guy to run past lives - when he can't - is to get him to run imaginary incidents.

Leon2, the very reason people do run past life incidents and believe them to be real is because they used their imagination to create them.

So of course if a person wants to run past lives but is having trouble, an auditor doing what Hubbard says to do would help the person along in learning how to create them from imagination.

This is just Hubbard's method of saying that some people need to get the ball rolling this way, by creating imaginary past life incidents in order to get sucked into believing they once experienced incidents in an imaginary past life.

There are hundreds of 'OTs' who will openly tell you that they no longer believe in what they once knew to be their whole track. Some, however, are still trying to overcome the sense of shame that they ever believed in the first place.

I do agree that it is not important to know where Hubbard got his OT tech from. I could care less.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
Leland and AnonMary - I have no problem with what you wrote here. None of it is incompatible with what I wrote.

All OK except for one little detail by Leland - there is no way in hell that the rocks the pyramids are made of could have been chiseled out with copper tools. No friggin way at all.
 

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
From me then Blanky

.( this is another key concept fundamental to all of Scientology - that spirits will degrade and become BTs without the OT levels and thus hold down other spirits in a group death spiral into blindness , amnesia , pain and eternal damnation and oblivion that is inescapable if Scientology does not clear earth NOW )
When you say all of Scientology - would that include those below the level of clear?

Thanks.

The "you will all die horribly and not survive earth " is something all Scientologists are taught in KSW and other places . Hubbard does not give all the details as he uses the mystery to compel further reaching for answers via rhetoric . But in KSW you get the idea that degrade enough beings can reach a state where they are blind . with amnesia and in pain forever and insane . This is something I was heavily indoctrinated in from day one in Scientology .

So Gib is right in that you do not get the OT III story in full until there but you get the theme from Oahspe of spirits degrading and falling into states where they cannot pick up a body and are insane and incapable of reversing the dwindling spiral . These ideas are all in Oahspe and like a lot of doctrine in Scientology it expands and shifts as you move up the pyramidal cult thought reform structure er "bridge to total freedom ".

I may address Leon later I gotta go now . :run:
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
From me then Blanky

<snip>

The "you will all die horribly and not survive earth " is something all Scientologists are taught in KSW and other places . Hubbard does not give all the details as he uses the mystery to compel further reaching for answers via rhetoric . But in KSW you get the idea that degrade enough beings can reach a state where they are blind . with amnesia and in pain forever and insane . This is something I was heavily indoctrinated in from day one in Scientology . <snip>

Awesome. Thanks. That helps.
 
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