OT III QUIZ

kate8024

-deleted-
Too funny that no source is given on these experiments to prove what he says. :laugh:

Unlike all the other things he says which have thorough references ;-) Maybe he was 'borrowing' the measurement of the soul's mass reported by Dr. MacDougall and doubling it (42 grams is 1.48 ounces).

How can a thetan be crippled and dismembered,
if he/she is without a body?

I guess they could be virtually crippled by doing things to them like the things purportedly done to the BT's in Incident 2.
 

Gib

Crusader
Unlike all the other things he says which have thorough references ;-) Maybe he was 'borrowing' the measurement of the soul's mass reported by Dr. MacDougall and doubling it (42 grams is 1.48 ounces).



I guess they could be virtually crippled by doing things to them like the things purportedly done to the BT's in Incident 2.

rather confusing for the science of knowing how to know. :confused2:
 

kate8024

-deleted-
Now, as I keep saying here, that the procedure seems to work is completely independent of the truth/falsity of the theory, but I hadn't thought of that back then when I was sup'ing. :)

One hypothesis I have which excludes BT's as being real is that our brains have sort of in-built (which could either be there for some odd reason via evolution or more likely there as a result of brain organization coming from common early life experiences or possibly they just get there via growing up in western culture) stories which one could consider sort of scenario templates or archetypes. In these templates, the details would not matter just the general sequence.

It would be an interesting experiment to get someone who had never heard any of the OT3 material and give them the same thing but with the details changed but keeping the overall story and see of they experience the procedure working in the same way as someone doing the actual OT3 material.
 

Gib

Crusader
One hypothesis I have which excludes BT's as being real is that our brains have sort of in-built (which could either be there for some odd reason via evolution or more likely there as a result of brain organization coming from common early life experiences or possibly they just get there via growing up in western culture) stories which one could consider sort of scenario templates or archetypes. In these templates, the details would not matter just the general sequence.

It would be an interesting experiment to get someone who had never heard any of the OT3 material and give them the same thing but with the details changed but keeping the overall story and see of they experience the procedure working in the same way as someone doing the actual OT3 material.

while the auditor does not evaluate for the person,

what does hubbard and scientology do?

Does hubbard evaluate?
 

kate8024

-deleted-
while the auditor does not evaluate for the person,

what does hubbard and scientology do?

Does hubbard evaluate?

Absolutely he does, I would say the vast majority of his writing would count as evaluating. The auditor isn't supposed to evaluate for you - but you will have 10,000,000 words of LRH in your head telling you whats right and wrong and what is supposed to work and what not and so on in addition to the worrying about the consequences of of an auditor getting the wrong read on something. The only PC that LRH is not evaluating for during an audit is one who has never read/listened to any of his work (and even then of course he is influencing what auditors look for so is still exerting some influence).
 

Gib

Crusader
Absolutely he does, I would say the vast majority of his writing would count as evaluating. The auditor isn't supposed to evaluate for you - but you will have 10,000,000 words of LRH in your head telling you whats right and wrong and what is supposed to work and what not and so on in addition to the worrying about the consequences of of an auditor getting the wrong read on something. The only PC that LRH is not evaluating for during an audit is one who has never read/listened to any of his work (and even then of course he is influencing what auditors look for so is still exerting some influence).

And that's why DM ordered, or included in the new bridge to total freedom (entrapment) that every member must do the "Basics" or read and listen to every LRH book & lecture. So LRH can tell everybody what is wrong with them and lead them to super powers. LOL
 

Anonycat

Crusader
Absolutely he does, I would say the vast majority of his writing would count as evaluating. The auditor isn't supposed to evaluate for you - but you will have 10,000,000 words of LRH in your head telling you whats right and wrong and what is supposed to work and what not and so on in addition to the worrying about the consequences of of an auditor getting the wrong read on something. The only PC that LRH is not evaluating for during an audit is one who has never read/listened to any of his work (and even then of course he is influencing what auditors look for so is still exerting some influence).

The e-meter is something Mathison thought he could try to sell to the field of psychiatry, but it was a gimmick and was discarded as such. In the beginning Hubbard even required a crisp, clean pillow case for each new session.

220px-Volney_mathison.jpg


meterad1950s.gif
 

kate8024

-deleted-
The e-meter is something Mathison thought he could try to sell to the field of psychiatry, but it was a gimmick and was discarded as such. In the beginning Hubbard even required a crisp, clean pillow case for each new session.

I tend to think of it as being of varied usefulness. For some combinations of PC and auditor it probably helps the PC find unknown mental associations and for some combinations of PC and auditor it gets in the way at best and can be potentially detrimental.

When doing things like the OT3 material, however, many people have reported seeing the meter react as LRH says it should which means there is some phenomenon going on that we don't totally understand. It could be that people get those readings because they expect to (or expect not to), it could be that mental repetition of any random stories produce the same results, it could be that one sees these phenomenon only when going through a story that is archetypal. The only way to really know as far as I am aware is to conduct research.
 
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Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
I tend to think of it as being of varied usefulness. For some combinations of PC and auditor it probably helps the PC find unknown mental associations and for some combinations of PC and auditor it gets in the at best and can be potentially detrimental.

When doing things like the OT3 material, however, many people have reported seeing the meter react as LRH says it should which means there is some phenomenon going on that we don't totally understand. It could be that people get those readings because they expect to (or expect not to), it could be that mental repetition of any random stories produce the same results, it could be that one sees these phenomenon only when going through a story that is archetypal. The only way to really know as far as I am aware is to conduct research.

Good point - I think the truth about the E-Meter has to come out first. I do not think it is accurate or reliable. It measures something - maybe blood pressure rising and falling.

Interesting subject but my E-meter has been smashed to smithereens so I can't do any research - sorry!!

I think the therapy comes in talking and someone duplicating you - the rest is "smoke and mirrors". Also - if you believe it.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
It would be an interesting experiment to get someone who had never heard any of the OT3 material and give them the same thing but with the details changed but keeping the overall story and see of they experience the procedure working in the same way as someone doing the actual OT3 material.

When the new OT3 materials came out around 1982, at Saint Hill we ran an "OT3 Update" service. We didn't ask permission from Int Mgmt but just did it. The service consisted of putting the new issues (maybe 8 of them) in a pack and M4ing and star-rating them on people. We called in dozens of the local OT3s for this. It only cost £10, and everyone was happy with it - the public got some interesting (to them) stuff, and there were lots of bodies in the shop, many of whom hadn't been on lines for years.

For me it was fascinating, as I discovered that many people had done OT3 without having the faintest idea of what they were doing. Not a clue. It wasn't that they had a couple of the items in the line-up reversed but more that they had missed the whole Xenu-volcano-BT concept completely and just solo audited in a fog of what was supposed to be occurring.

So they did their solo auditing, and took up individual mysterious cycles which F/N'd and wrote things on the worksheets and eventually couldn't find any more thingies to take up and then attested the level.

I carefully didn't think about this too much!

-----

I just realized this isn't what you proposed. Sorry. I have read of people "trying it out" after reading about OT3 on the Internet and getting nowhere with it. At SH I noted that people who somehow got onto OT2/OT3 without having done much auditing (this was shortly after Dianetic Clear came out and before the procedures had all been clarified) tended to (1) not get any reads on OT2, (2) not find any BTs on OT3, (3) conclude Scn was a con and leave.

I imagine that someone with little auditing who had attention on current life issues wouldn't find anything much to audit on OT3. The signal-to-noise ratio would be too poor. It's like trying to have an intimate whispered conversation in a noisy disco - not going to work.

For clarification in case anyone doesn't know my position, my opinion is that Hubbard's theory is ridiculous but there are genuine underlying phenomena that the OT3 procedure (imperfectly) addresses - a finite number of delicate thingies that one individually locates and puts attention on. The thingie then dissipates with an F/N and whatever was hanging up is doing so no longer. Hubbard calls this "blowing a body thetan," and I just look on it as a bit of disharmonious energy-consciousness dissipating.

Paul
 
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Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
When doing things like the OT3 material, however, many people have reported seeing the meter react as LRH says it should which means there is some phenomenon going on that we don't totally understand. ... The only way to really know as far as I am aware is to conduct research.

Yeah, sure; but so what? There's hardly anything that we totally understand. Turn your radio dial to a frequency with no station, and listen to the random noise: it's not understood. In principle you could track down just what little jittering electrical charges in the universe made those mysterious waves your set picked up. Would that be at all worthwhile or interesting, though? No.

If we had to research everything that wasn't totally understood, we'd never even get out of bed. "Not totally understood" is a way low bar. It needs a lot more than that to make something worth researching. I see no a priori reason to suspect that any e-meter behavior associated with Hubbard's OT3 material will end up having anything to do with anything interesting or worthwhile. Only a fairly serious amount of preconditioning from the cult, it seems to me, could make anyone think otherwise.

There are lots of other mysteries that look a lot more promising. Maybe once we've gotten them all cleared up, somebody will get around to the e-meter wobbles on OT3. Until then, life is just too short, you know?
 
Yeah, sure; but so what? There's hardly anything that we totally understand. Turn your radio dial to a frequency with no station, and listen to the random noise: it's not understood. In principle you could track down just what little jittering electrical charges in the universe made those mysterious waves your set picked up. Would that be at all worthwhile or interesting, though? No.

If we had to research everything that wasn't totally understood, we'd never even get out of bed. "Not totally understood" is a way low bar. It needs a lot more than that to make something worth researching. I see no a priori reason to suspect that any e-meter behavior associated with Hubbard's OT3 material will end up having anything to do with anything interesting or worthwhile. Only a fairly serious amount of preconditioning from the cult, it seems to me, could make anyone think otherwise.

There are lots of other mysteries that look a lot more promising. Maybe once we've gotten them all cleared up, somebody will get around to the e-meter wobbles on OT3. Until then, life is just too short, you know?
What's there really left to understand? it's a silly biofeedback role playing game, you can buy them on ebay .

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...eedback+game&_nkwusc=biofeed+back+game&_rdc=1


Hubbard's biofeedback role playing game just happened to have a painfully cheesy 1950s science fiction theme.
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
Right — that's the most plausible explanation for all that's basically going on. It's plausible enough that I see no reason to look farther. The case doesn't have to be proven.
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

For me it was fascinating, as I discovered that many people had done OT3 without having the faintest idea of what they were doing. Not a clue. It wasn't that they had a couple of the items in the line-up reversed but more that they had missed the whole Xenu-volcano-BT concept completely and just solo audited in a fog of what was supposed to be occurring.

So they did their solo auditing, and took up individual mysterious cycles which F/N'd and wrote things on the worksheets and eventually couldn't find any more thingies to take up and then attested the level.

I carefully didn't think about this too much!

-----

I just realized this isn't what you proposed. Sorry. I have read of people "trying it out" after reading about OT3 on the Internet and getting nowhere with it. At SH I noted that people who somehow got onto OT2/OT3 without having done much auditing (this was shortly after Dianetic Clear came out and before the procedures had all been clarified) tended to (1) not get any reads on OT2, (2) not find any BTs on OT3, (3) conclude Scn was a con and leave.

I imagine that someone with little auditing who had attention on current life issues wouldn't find anything much to audit on OT3. The signal-to-noise ratio would be too poor. It's like trying to have an intimate whispered conversation in a noisy disco - not going to work.

:) "The signal to noise ratio" idea has a nice new-agey feel to it, but there's a downside to the mental grooves that are created by repeatedly engaging in the ritual of "going into session" with one's e-meter, and one's "LRH data."

A clue regarding this downside is provided by way of Hubbard's (self) 'Affirmations' of the late 1940s:

""Your writing has a deep hypnotic effect on people and they are always pleased with what you write...

"Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people. It predicts their emotions, for you are their ruler
."

For clarification in case anyone doesn't know my position, my opinion is that Hubbard's theory is ridiculous but there are genuine underlying phenomena that the OT3 procedure (imperfectly) addresses - a finite number of delicate thingies that one individually locates and puts attention on. The thingie then dissipates with an F/N and whatever was hanging up is doing so no longer. Hubbard calls this "blowing a body thetan," and I just look on it as a bit of disharmonious energy-consciousness dissipating.

Paul

We've been over this before and, I think, we agree that anyone recommending that others "do" OT 2 or OT 3 is being irresponsible.

IMO, it's a toss up as to whether doing these "in a fog" is better or worse than doing them "properly."

As for some revised procedure that addresses such things as "dichotomies," or such things as "disharmonious energy-consciousness" ," that's another topic. In any event, such would no longer be OT 2 or OT 3 and would not qualify for the name "mind f__k."
 

Terril park

Sponsor
One hypothesis I have which excludes BT's as being real is that our brains have sort of in-built (which could either be there for some odd reason via evolution or more likely there as a result of brain organization coming from common early life experiences or possibly they just get there via growing up in western culture) stories which one could consider sort of scenario templates or archetypes. In these templates, the details would not matter just the general sequence.

It would be an interesting experiment to get someone who had never heard any of the OT3 material and give them the same thing but with the details changed but keeping the overall story and see of they experience the procedure working in the same way as someone doing the actual OT3 material.

I believe belief in ghosts, demons entities are the most widespread religious beliefs.
The new testament is full of stories of excorcisms, Christians still perform them,
my father a priest was an excorcist. Most christians would never have heard of OT 3.

A little something I wrote quite a while ago.

NOTS AND THE BIBLE

The Xenu story "body thetans" and Nots auditing has come in for much
ridicule
. Here.I’d like to put aside the Xenu story,perhaps class that as
mythology, ,and look at the relationship between Nots and the
excorcising of demons as presented in the Gospels.
One point about the Bible is that it is as well as a religious
text,a historical document.Further an authorititive one in that there
are several accounts of the same person and events from multiple
sources.There are many references to exorcisms,including multiple
possession.

There is the question of what if any are the differences between
a demon and a "body thetan" or entity.They are both non material yet
alive in some way,both affect the possessee adversely in some way,both
can be gotten rid of by simple commands,
both can exist as multiples or clusters..Collectively they seem to have
troubled man throughout his existance.As far as I can see there is not
such a lot of difference.
Considering the Gospels have come down to us through many
versions,translations ect,none of which were contemporary with
Christ,there is remarkable similarity,
to Nots auditing,if that was also the original intention of Christ.


"In the evening at sundown,they would bring all the sick and demon
possessed to him……On such occasions he cured many people afflicted with
various diseases and drove out many demons." Mark 1-32.

"And summoning his 12 deciples he gave them authority to drive out
unclean spirits and to heal every disease and every ailment." Matthew
10-1

"And his reputation spread through the whole of Syria.They
brought him evertone who was ill,who suffered from any kind of disease
or was in intense pain,who was possessed,who was epileptic,or a
parylytic,and he cured them.Mathew
4-24.

These are a few examples. These show that driving out demons was a
separate
goal different to curing ,epilepsy,disease,paralysis,pain ect.This was
probably relieving the person with regard to mental or spiritual
issues.Councelling if you like
which is still practiced today in confessional and in exorcism.

CLUSTERS

In some instances multiple possession is encountered and
handled.This is parrallelled by the auditing of "clusters" on Nots.


"Mary,the one from Magdala,from whom seven Demons had taken
their leave…." Luke 8-2


"Jesus questioned him :"What is your name?"
"Legion" ,he said,because many demons had entered him.They kept
begging himnot to order them to depart into the abyss……and they
bargained with him to let them enter those pigs.And he agreed.Then the
demons came out of the fellow and entered the pigs…." Luke 8-30


"When an unclean spirit leaves a person,it wanders through
waterless places in search of a resting place.When it dosn’t find one
it says,I will go back to the home I left.It then returns,and finds and
finds it swept and refurbished.Next it goes out and brings back seven
other spirits more vile than itself,who enter and settle in there.So
that person ends up worse of than when he or she started." Luke 11 -24

It seems multiple possession was quite common.The last reference
seems to be giving an explanation of why that would be.It is also
parralel to the phenomena of having audited one of a cluster using
Nots ,there are several more entities who have the same
pictures,incidents copied among themselves.And they remain.


TEACHING

Christ actually taught his Deciples to also drive out demons. See
mathew 10-1 above.

Also see below Mark 9-38 , Jesus is called teacher.

"He called his 12 together and gave them power and authority over
all demons and to heal diseases." Luke 9-1

"He formed a group of twelve to be his companions,and to be sent out
to speak,and to have authority to drive out demons." Mark-14

Also disciple means one who recieves instruction.As I understand
it Christ was a man so could not rely on devine powers to excorcise
demons.He used words,much as auditors do.His disciples certainly were
not devine and he taught them how to drive out demons.It also seemed an
important part of his mission.Bringing his version of the "Tech" to
people,perhaps.

COMMANDS

Well in Luke 8-30 you have him bargaining with demons,to let them
go into pigs.

Here is another example. "But Jesus yelled at it,"Shut up and
get out of him."
Mark 1-25.

This latter is a bit abrupt.In that it is similar to
the "Thetan hand" technique of Nots.

The Shcolars of the Westar institute:-

Jesus undoubtedly made remarks during the exorcism of
demons.Because they were not incantations or magical formulae,the
disciples did not preserve his actual words.As a consequence,scholars
conclude that words such as those found in 1-25 represent the story
tellers’s idea of what Jesus would have said in expelling a demon.
This cold mean these words were simple questions or commands such
as found in auditing.As in everyday use,and thus not remarked on.They
are lost it seems
unless new archaelogical treasures are discovered.


SQUIRRELLING


Here is a section from Mark 9-38

"John said to him,"Teacher,we saw someone driving out demons
in your name,so we tried to stop him,because he wasn’t one of our
adherents"
Jesus responded,"Don’t stop him!……….In fact whoever is not
against us is on our side……."

Sigh!…..If only COS had this same attitude.Note the
addressing of Jesus as Teacher. It looks like Christ is teaching an
early form of nots here.


CONFIDENTIALITY

From Luke 8-16

"No one lights a lamp and covers it with a pot or puts it
undera bed;rather one puts it on a lampstand,so that those who come in
can see the light.After all,there is nothing hidden that won’t be
brought to light,nor secreted away that won’t be made known and
exposed."

Here is another point COS could have learned from.

So those who wish to mock Nots,you get very close to mocking your
friends or your own tradition.
Religion generally,and Christianity in particular has been usurped
and taken over by Rulers governments and different factions.One well
known example being the Take over by Constantine,in 325 A.D ,who
instigated the Vote on whether God was
1 or 3,by a council of bishops at Niceae.
Thus some parts of the tradition are given prominence over others
at different times.I was very surprised at the very many refs.to
casting out of demons.I have
only quoted a fraction of them.Yet this tradition is not spoken much
about.
I was raised in Christian schools althiough I am not one.I was never
told much of this,in fact can remember nothing.

bb
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Yeah, sure; but so what? There's hardly anything that we totally understand. Turn your radio dial to a frequency with no station, and listen to the random noise: it's not understood. In principle you could track down just what little jittering electrical charges in the universe made those mysterious waves your set picked up. Would that be at all worthwhile or interesting, though? No.

If we had to research everything that wasn't totally understood, we'd never even get out of bed. "Not totally understood" is a way low bar. It needs a lot more than that to make something worth researching. I see no a priori reason to suspect that any e-meter behavior associated with Hubbard's OT3 material will end up having anything to do with anything interesting or worthwhile. Only a fairly serious amount of preconditioning from the cult, it seems to me, could make anyone think otherwise.

There are lots of other mysteries that look a lot more promising. Maybe once we've gotten them all cleared up, somebody will get around to the e-meter wobbles on OT3. Until then, life is just too short, you know?

The meter works on even people brand new to Scn. One the NED interneship
I had to drag someone in off the street and audit them. It worked. No doubt everyone who did this interneship back then also needed to.Note that police lie detectors include something similar to a meter.
 
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