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Discussion in 'Scientology Technology' started by mockingbird, Dec 23, 2015.

  1. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    OT IX And X
    Occasionally someone or other asks or speculates about the release of OT IX and OT X and I think of it as frankly a near impossibility. I will try to make a simple case for why it is unlikely.

    One prediction I have is an either or proposition. I feel we will never see OT IX or X released in any form OR it will signal a state of near complete collapse of the Scientology cult and actually speed the collapse itself.

    If anyone releases these levels once actual delivery occurs and no OT abilities are created the disappointed cult members walking away will be a part of tremendous changes for the tiny core of fanatics remaining. If this happens the cult will most likely dwindle down to five or ten thousand members, perhaps even less.

    Between the fact that no levels actually exist and that they are promoted as being the first actual OT levels with powers and Scientologists have been told repeatedly in writing that all orgs must be Saint Hill size before the upper levels can be released those factors combine to make releasing something and calling it IX and X just too problematic. It is the move you only do when you know the con is about to end.

    Staff and Sea Org members will leave if he did it because they will know something is too wrong for this to still be Scientology. I cannot stress that enough. Captain David Miscavige (leader of the Sea Org) knows this. He also knows once the levels utterly fail to grant any powers the whole fraud will collapse for individual Scientologists who realize that only an all too human is behind the curtain. One with no miracles, no wisdom and no magic.

    Miscavige has to avoid this at all costs.

    I think my idea hinges on two factors. As staff and Sea Org members we had the "all orgs Saint Hill size" prerequisite pounded into us daily. And the accompanying ideas that at Saint Hill size we got good pay and the Universe Corps and would see literally thousands of new Scientologists coming in EVERY org.

    That myth can never be true, and Miscavige knows it. But staff use the Saint Hill myth to justify a million things, from no pay to poor service, bad and no results from Scientology and also as a way to blame themselves for bad conditions because they think if they just made the org Saint Hill size all the problems, abuses and injustices would just go away.

    And it's been this way for decades. Hubbard set it up that way. Saint Hill size is the rainbow we all chased. It promised enough staff with enough training to deliver wins and miracles. It promised good pay and decent working conditions. It promised the Universe Corps and free OT levels for staff.

    Those very generous promises were always empty lies, and just counterfeit dreams to control us with false futures. That term is used to describe how narcissists deceive their victims. Hubbard knew they could never be but they served his purpose. He was the wolf in shepherd's clothing, and quite a ravenous wolf as well.

    We also used the Saint Hill size excuse to avoid issues related to the lack of positive impact from Scientology socially and the lack of expansion. At every org and mission you can say we are just not big enough to see a standard Scientology org, but everyone else is.
    Additionally for the public the con has a runway of excuses.

    They learn to believe in godlike miracles then accept excuses why they never come. You think you will get Einstein like genius and perfect memory with no negative emotions or habits by clear on the Scientology bridge. Then you accept lower and lower results until by clear lowered expectations are routine.

    You then on the OT levels from OT III on go from blaming the fictional horror of the reactive mind to the absurd excuse of body thetans. You are told you removed the reactive mind by clear, so that excuse won't work anymore.

    On the OT levels you blame body thetans and they are the excuse for the promised super powers of telekinesis, telepathy, healing etc. etc. never materializing. But you get told by OT VII that they are all handled. Then by OT VIII that valences and false memories are handled.

    So any further OT levels would be expected to actually deliver the long promised miracles and OT abilities.

    Between the two groups being deceived with the Saint Hill size lies AND the upper OT levels lies no reality Scientology can deliver wouldn't shatter the illusion for many Scientologists.

    When you promise paradise, when you preach perfection of self and group, you can never be exposed as a fraud. That false future has to always be in the future. If it is ever the present it is exposed, the curtain gets pulled back and the emperor is not wearing a stitch.

    Hubbard knew this and Miscavige does as well.
  2. WildKat

    WildKat Gold Meritorious Patron

    Good post! Totally agree.

    BTW, I think I saw on Rinders site or maybe Tony's... A copy of an actual announcement from Flag or somewhere that IX/X were forthcoming, maybe even a date? That led me to think Miscavige is trying for a last chance money-grab before it all goes bust.
  3. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Wildcat I saw that story and it was based on promo describing a guest as an OT VIII IX and X Auditor and C/S. I explained that the guy was listed as an OT completion on the auditing side of the bridge AND a class IX and class X auditor and C/S on the training side. I also explained that if OT IX and X ever are released it will require a huge evolution of training and recruiting that would be known for years. Also Captain David Miscavige (leader of Scientology and the Sea Org) would reg the whales dry for years before beginning delivery. He might even reg for decades to buy buildings or ships. He wouldn't just send one guy to talk to an OT committee. It doesn't work that way.

    That OT committee meeting came and went months ago. No announcements on upper OT levels.

    Here is a link to Tony Ortega's story.

    Here's a link to Mike Rinder's post.
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2015
  4. CommunicatorIC

    CommunicatorIC @IndieScieNews on Twitter

    There is a significant amount of evidence that OT IX and X will be released in 2016. That evidence is memorialized in this thread.

    Such evidence includes, but is not limited to:




  5. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    CommunicatorIC, I think Mike Rinder makes the case for why OT IX and X will likely never be released. The claims he shows from 1993 that IX and X are "closer than you think" were just bullshit used to get OT VIII completions to buy the BC.

    I remember meeting VIIIs who did the BC so they would be qualified for IX and X. Now Miscavige is bilking more dupes out of money for whatever he can. Whether it's doing objectives again or repair lists for OT levels or basics courses he is bleeding them dry.

    He simply CANNOT release anything and call it IX and X because the thousands of long suffering staff have been fed a pack of lies. Lies that rely on seeing Saint Hill size as a utopian paradise. If they realize it will never come he is going to have a bigger mass exodus than what occurred after Snow White and Hubbard's death and GAT and GAT II and the Posse of Lunatics debacle.

    He knows that thousands of staff and thousands of Sea Org members have denied all the failures of Scientology and literally religiously awaited reaching the make break point of Saint Hill size to have good pay, to have decent working conditions, to have the miracles Hubbard promised but never delivered on.

    And a million other things. I have personally literally hundreds or thousands of times heard people use the "we just have to make it to the make break point and this will be better" line.

    Miscavige knows this is the culture of Scientology. All orgs Saint Hill size is as significant to long term staff and Sea Org members as the second coming of Christ is to Christians.

    If Miscavige were ever foolish enough to release something and call it IX and X it would create an astonishing change. Just like in doomsday cults when their predicted end of the world day comes and goes it would have predictable results.

    This has been documented over and over. In his books When Prophecy Fails and A Theory Of Cognitive Dissonance Leon Festinger explains this in great detail.

    Often a cult when their prophesied end time comes prepares for the end. Then the disconfirming event happens. The prophecy undeniably fails. The group breaks into two parts.

    The most dedicated inner core find a new prophecy or vision from God or an angel to change the date or say their prayers convinced God to spare the world. They become much more zealous and fanatical. To alleviate the cognitive dissonance of the disconfirming event they begin recruiting with far greater dedication.

    The other outer subgroup with less dedication is dejected and walks away from the cult if they can. They sometimes even leave the city or country to get away and start a new life elsewhere.

    The failed prophecy shatters their faith. They realize that if this fundamental core doctrine is obviously false the entire belief system may be wrong. That often jump starts long dormant independent and critical thinking.

    Miscavige knows this. He knows the pack of lies about Saint Hill size and the conditions in orgs are essential to controlling staff and Sea Org members. And part if the pack of lies to hold public waiting for the long promised upper OT levels. The levels above OT VIII are supposed to be the real OT levels with the telekinesis, telepathy, healing and all the other promised powers.

    Miscavige knows if he puts out IX and X and abandons the Saint Hill size con that will cost him thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of members. And if he releases anything for IX and X that doesn't produce actual superpowers that will cost him the prized whales.

    He would have a full scale exodus and rebellion from the bottom and a mass walk away from the top, financially.

    His best move is a delaying action in his mind. He just puts off dealing with it and puts it off and strings people along with basics and redoing the lower bridge over and over. He has no other choice. He has no other way to keep the con going and that is likely all he lives for now.

    I cannot see any circumstances in which IX and X are released, except Miscavige deciding to just reg every cent he can in a cash grab then run. But where could he go ? And be sure he would be safe forever ?
  6. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    There's always the original OT levels. Then they could copyright Cap'n Bill's stuff
  7. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Guanoloco, the original OT levels never produced any magical powers. So we still have all the problems I described.
  8. CommunicatorIC

    CommunicatorIC @IndieScieNews on Twitter

  9. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    From Mike Rinder's blog.

    This is an old tactic the cult has been using for regging at least since 1993. They say something is coming in the future to draw in the hopeful and then run a bait and switch.

    There is no OT IX and X. Unless they repackaged some other fraud for extracting cash. Whatever garbage they can cobble together won't provide any miracles or super powers, just like the rest of Scientology.

    I feel the probability of Miscavige continuing to stall on new OT levels is nearly one hundred percent. He has too many problems with any alternatives.
  10. CommunicatorIC

    CommunicatorIC @IndieScieNews on Twitter

    Obviously, time will tell, but I respectfully disagree with Mike's prediction that Miscavige will stall on new OT levels. Scientology has a lot of parked OT VIIIs, and: (a) given all of the recent negative publicity, Miscavige needs a carrot; (b) after Super Power the OT VIIIs need something new to spend money on

    FWIW, the rumors I'm hearing are that OT IX and OT X are a go.

    My prediction is that Miscavige got someone to rewrite, recombine and recycle the old OT levels.

    I do agree that anything they cobble together for OT IX and OT X won't provide any miracles or super powers. Those will obviously be provided by New OT XXIV and XXV.
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2015
  11. Gib

    Gib Crusader

  12. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    It is fine to believe Miscavige will try to sell something. But how would he address the issues I brought up ?

    The Saint Hill size doctrine serves so many purposes effectively. It would be suicidal to abandon that. Staff know their orgs are tiny and so do Sea Org members. They would have a large number of people leaving as a consequence. Also after the levels utterly fail to fulfill promises the fallout would be catastrophic.

    You have to understand that the current OT VIII works a certain way. It takes the Scientologist who bought into the reactive mind lie all the way to clear on a special journey. They persist and purchase the journey to OT III. They do those drills. Then they do OT III and buy into exorcism of body thetans.

    If they are on board with this for years they can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep removing seventy five million year old alien spirits. If they made it through all this the new excuse on OT VIII is BTs cases and implanted identities and valences.

    So by the end of OT VIII the cult members' minds are severely altered. They have entirely constructed a hypnotic delusional reality along the way.

    From the hypnosis in TRs and objectives on the individual cult member is conditioned to accept Hubbard's ideology and frame everything within it. With Hubbard's indoctrination the cult member enters a submissive hypnotic state and intakes his doctrine. The loaded language becomes the beliefs and deep seated ideas, emotions and values of the cult member.

    Hubbard additionally used a propaganda technique of calling actions and things their exact opposites. These reversals hide the truth.
    The reversals of meaning obliterate reason and create doublethink in the victim. Failure equals success.

    They finally have valences and false memories as the identity they have entirely bought into. Then on OT VIII even this is eliminated. They suppressed their own beliefs and identity quite thoroughly in going up through the OT levels. They adopted a new identity with a vast set of false memories that are created and framed to produce one thing: submission to Hubbard's authority.

    The terms they use and thousands of beliefs they acquire are within Hubbard's control. Bits of their individuality remain in the way the new memories are formed. The delusion of body thetans that is required often twists the victims'mind. Hallucinations have been reported for several Scientologists from OT III on up. Several accounts include seeing body thetans everywhere and in everyone.

    So then on OT VIII the true memories and identity have been buried already for decades. And the new identity and memories get contradicted. The victim has only Hubbard's direction and authority left.

    The delusion is quite extreme by this point. Many OT VIII completions claim to be Gods with their own universe. And astounding abilities like creating ANYTHING they postulate EVER.

    Claims such as having everything they desire being exactly how they desire it and having everything they don't care about being outside their determination by intention.

    In other words everything including weather, world peace, children starving and all occurrences are seen as under the direct personal control of an OT VIII. That certainly fits the definition of delusional.

    So at this peak of deception what is left to do with the victim ?

    They simply have reached such an extreme level of deception that they are utterly unreal to most people.

    How any further indoctrination wouldn't produce someone obviously insane is difficult to conceive. They already believe they are Gods. Any further and others will truly expect them to show it.
  13. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    I don't know...the lack of results have never stopped them before.
  14. prosecco

    prosecco Patron Meritorious

    Mockingbird, I cut most of your post to reply, but all your points are excellent.

    I agree with Communicator I/C that OT IX and X will be delivered and that there probably won't be a long runway to do so.

    As far as the Saint Hill status being a criteria, maybe there will be a, 'ground breaking' something or other that justifies it, perhaps along the lines that Ideal Org status is a cut above Saint Hill status or another spin, i.e. that the goals of Saint Hill status actually have been obtained as evidenced by (fill in the blank...)

    I also think there will be a general amnesty along with it as lots of people are falling off the lines and they need to reel them back into the fold. A tech release is the perfect opportunity to do so, as it's also another income source, namely those who aren't auditing on, 'the level,' or those who aren't active.

    As far as your point about how they will train auditors, I don't think it will be that difficult. Off the top of my head, seem to recall OT IX and X are audited actions rather than solo. So, it would be delivered either at FSO or the Ship, but either way, that's only having to train maybe, what, 30 or so auditors? It's probably not anything hugely difficult, so they could be checked out on it quickly. I am guessing here on the basis that the, 'big reveal' on OT VIII was probably about a page or so of new information with the other parts padding it out.

    Don't forget that scientology is essentially a marketing scheme. They sell their goods and services internally, and they are brilliant at it.
  15. oneonewasaracecar

    oneonewasaracecar Gold Meritorious Patron

    It is a pretty compelling argument. Miscavige really doesn't have anything else to sell and he has buyers.

    I'm sure he could fabricate a loophole around the Saint Hill sized problem.
  16. WildKat

    WildKat Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yep, there's all those reasons why people didn't make it. SPs and PTS being at the top of the list, and always coming back to the basic "it's your fault, not the tech"
  17. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    I think that Miscavige cannot overcome the idea the long suffering staff hold that Scientology organizations need to be built from the bottom up. Meaning each and every org needs to reach the size of Old Saint Hill to properly deliver Scientology.

    Thousands of staff and Sea Org members have bought into an illusion that Scientology depends on them personally building their own org up. Then flowing public up to the Sea Org service orgs.

    They have been blaming themselves for decades. If Miscavige releases ANYTHING called OT IX and X without first making the orgs Saint Hill size that alone will cost him thousands of longtime Scientologists.

    He would need to be quite desperate to do that.

    Regarding having nothing left to sell he can keep sending people through the lower bridge and come up with the Golden Age of Admin and Golden Age of Ethics.
  18. WildKat

    WildKat Gold Meritorious Patron

    Probably working on that as we speak.
  19. prosecco

    prosecco Patron Meritorious

    I hope you're right and I'm wrong. Truly.
  20. Leland

    Leland Crusader

    There must be some animosity....amongst staff.....that the Cult pretty much just services rich people....

    And that staff.....are not going to get their "bridges".....anytime soon....if at all.

    Of the old staff leave/die......the younger kids can be sold the same old "bill of goods" of being awarded their bridge....or winning it somehow....."in the future" if they do a good job...and work hard.

    But overall....even public ....that make minimum wage...or even $12 or $20 an hour......there is no way to live...and pay for the cost of doing their next level.....IMO.

    There must be plenty of weary public also...