OT wins or Derealisation?

G

Gottabrain

Guest
Gadfly, I also love what you say here:

"We each may be God's way of experiencing, up close and personal, some unique aspect of this amazingly complex, beautiful and detailed Universe. For me, at this point in my "evolution", I am trying to do THAT the best I can. While also recognizing that EVERY OTHER separate thing is simply some other version of myself, just at a different point in space and time along the unfolding of this Universe (God's Creation). And each deserves complete tolerance, respect, and love. Of course, it would sure be nice if some of them would eventually come to also grant such tolerance, respect, and love to all others. But, their failure or refusal in that regard is no excuse for me not to.

I also see that as a key ingredient of a "valid spiritual path". It breaks down barriers and encourages tolerance, respect, and love to all others. ANY ideology, religion or philosophy that creates a model that involves "good guys" and "bad guys", and provides EXCUSES TO HARM some segment of creation (for your own or your group's benefit) is, to me, fundamentally flawed. Again, Scientology fails horribly in that regard. Both in theory, and especially, today in DM's current version of Scientology, in practice. Hubbard has/had been mocking up "enemies" right from the beginning. The subject itself creates separation/division and erects barriers. THAT asepct, all by itself, sabotages the subject. No matter WHO is in charge
"

I agree with all of this. Nicely said. :thumbsup:
I also see us as God's points to view and experience, to give and gain knowledge. If we see a problem or solution, God sees the problem or solution and it becomes available to all. (Doesn't excuse us from not personally implementing it, though)

We are all the same at different paths, with different aspects in different amounts to our personal experiences, physical characteristics or capabilities, education or personalities. But still the same in our essence, all family, all connected to everything and everyone else alive, all children of God.

All part of the sea of life.

watch
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Gadfly, I also love what you say here:

"We each may be God's way of experiencing, up close and personal, some unique aspect of this amazingly complex, beautiful and detailed Universe. For me, at this point in my "evolution", I am trying to do THAT the best I can. While also recognizing that EVERY OTHER separate thing is simply some other version of myself, just at a different point in space and time along the unfolding of this Universe (God's Creation). And each deserves complete tolerance, respect, and love. Of course, it would sure be nice if some of them would eventually come to also grant such tolerance, respect, and love to all others. But, their failure or refusal in that regard is no excuse for me not to.

I also see that as a key ingredient of a "valid spiritual path". It breaks down barriers and encourages tolerance, respect, and love to all others. ANY ideology, religion or philosophy that creates a model that involves "good guys" and "bad guys", and provides EXCUSES TO HARM some segment of creation (for your own or your group's benefit) is, to me, fundamentally flawed. Again, Scientology fails horribly in that regard. Both in theory, and especially, today in DM's current version of Scientology, in practice. Hubbard has/had been mocking up "enemies" right from the beginning. The subject itself creates separation/division and erects barriers. THAT asepct, all by itself, sabotages the subject. No matter WHO is in charge
"

I agree with all of this. Nicely said. :thumbsup:
I also see us as God's points to view and experience, to give and gain knowledge. If we see a problem or solution, God sees the problem or solution and it becomes available to all. (Doesn't excuse us from not personally implementing it, though)

We are all the same at different paths, with different aspects in different amounts to our personal experiences, physical characteristics or capabilities, education or personalities. But still the same in our essence, all family, all connected to everything and everyone else alive, all children of God.

All part of the sea of life.

watch

Gottabrain, I have EVERY Alan Parson's album! I love all sorts of music, and very deeply at that (being a musician), but you picked here a stupendous song from a really great band!

They were, in a funny sort of way, a more commercialized and yuppie version of the Moody Blues! And, I just love them. Alan Parsons was co-engineer on Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon album, so he had some great experience behind him.

on and on - to the sea . . . . . :thumbsup:

You just prompted me to take a look at something. For me, I have been practicing "being there with love and total admiration gazing at whatever falls in front of me", and consciously allowing and opening the line TO GOD. I have been trying to act as a clean and open channel TO GOD. To sort of "serve my purpose" as a tentacle - as it were.

It just never crossed my mind to let it flow BOTH WAYS!!!!!! :omg:

I am going to put that into practice. Now, I suppose that I have opened other channels "coming in" as I activily meditate, and when I visualize it is always done with the attitude that I am placing this "image" at the foot of "God" (the active Intelligence behind all structure and functioning throughout the Universe), and how and when it manifests is entirely up to Him/Her.

Note: Visualization can be thought of as a form of prayer, though it involves a more detailed set of exact models and mechanics than random "praying".

People would benefit GREATLY by having available an active way to consciously change ones own agreements, considerations and ideas about all sorts of things. If it is true, and I see that it is, that ANY experience of the Universe is confined well within Einstein's theory of relativity, then it behooves any person to have at his or her disposal some set of tools to intentionally CHANGE ones set of ideas about everything. Because, as ones ideas change, so changes the very manner in which any person experiences the Universe. It is ONLY any person's set of agreements, postulates and considerations about everything, on all dynamics, that defines the "state of the observer". And, this "state of the observer" psychologically determines almost completely HOW and WHAT the observer experiences of some tiny slice of the Universe. I am sorry to use Scio terminology, but in this case, I can find no other words to use that better delineate all of this. In other words, a person's firm attitudes, and ideas (held with conviction), create the "colored glasses" though which any person sees the world around him or her. It is always relative.

Well not always. One CAN let go of all ideas and considerations, about everything on every dynamic, just wipe the slate clean, but you might be a bit uncomfortable suddenly finding yourself merging with and into all-that-is! At that point all sense of personal identity vanishes. I say this from experience, and not only from reading the reports of others about "mystical experiences". :happydance:

Some people will try to explain that as "disassociation" of ones personality, something that is viewed negatively, and which is also used as a way to explain what happens during "TRs" or "exteriorization". I have no doubt that these same psychologists would diagnose Buddha or Jesus with the same "mental disorder", so I don't give it much stock. In a sense, one does disassociate from everything. But, that is NOT necessarily a bad thing. The same happens with techniques that work to reduce or vanquish the "personal ego". In a certain regard, some branches of modern psychology don't like it when any member of society veers too far away from being a good, modern, well-indoctrinated "consumer".

In changing the "state of the observer", affirmations have a great value. But, they need to be used in a context that includes parameters such as, "by this coming about nothing is harmed, and many things benefit", and "God will bring this to me in the best way possible, in ways that I, in my limited scope, can never possibly anticipate or imagine". In other words, it is best done with a firm awareness of and complete respect for the Intelligence behind it all. Affirmations are simply a tool. One can affirm nutty shit like Hubbard did, or something more like what the Dalai Lama does - he affirms "world peace". Basically, he spends time each day meditating/praying for "world peace". You can't get more "selfless" than that.

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Badass

Patron with Honors
Beautiful string of posts Gadfly!

I believe enlightenment occurs when the being is totally aware of the "colored glasses" which he is using, and can make them all vanish completely, and create different sets of them at will to observe the universe in different ways.

Having only one fixed set of colored glasses means creativity has been lost, and maybe even the awareness of that creativity.

Also, just looking at created things somehow is not enough.

The search for knowledge (observation of created things) seems to me just an endless endeavour in which I spent many years doing not much more than chasing my tail.

Not even understanding of created things seems to go far enough.

At present time I´m trying to understand creativity and discover how much of it can I find in myself and how much of it I can be the cause of........

yes...creation of creativity......now my brain is melting.:omg: ....time to go to sleep!!!!!

Good bye and thanks for all the fish!!!!
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Beautiful string of posts Gadfly!

I believe enlightenment occurs when the being is totally aware of the "colored glasses" which he is using, and can make them all vanish completely, and create different sets of them at will to observe the universe in different ways.

Having only one fixed set of colored glasses means creativity has been lost, and maybe even the awareness of that creativity.

Also, just looking at created things somehow is not enough.

The search for knowledge (observation of created things) seems to me just an endless endeavour in which I spent many years doing not much more than chasing my tail.

Not even understanding of created things seems to go far enough.

At present time I´m trying to understand creativity and discover how much of it can I find in myself and how much of it I can be the cause of........

yes...creation of creativity......now my brain is melting.:omg: ....time to go to sleep!!!!!

Good bye and thanks for all the fish!!!!

Wow! Very well put. :thumbsup:

This especially rang true for me:

I believe enlightenment occurs when the being is totally aware of the "colored glasses" which he is using, and can make them all vanish completely, and create different sets of them at will to observe the universe in different ways.

And, what is left when you remove ALL sets of glasses? :yes: :yes: :yes:

I used to have the idea that a "proper Scientology Bridge" would solve this by "undoing all of the postulates and agreements made by the spiritual being down through all time". I used to have the notion that all of these postulates and agreements acted as "limiting factors", and as such, when spotted and removed with Scientology processing, would allow the spiritual being to "be there" pretty much with nothing else - simply pure awareness.

I used to think . . . .

But there were a few problems for me with that. First, it was always "negative gain". It bothered me that the Scientology Bridge was dependent on simply "removing things" as a way to improvement. I agree that SOME of that is useful, but I feel that its usefulness runs out fairly quickly. I mean, once I was totally exterior with full perception on the Grades, the LAST thing I wanted was more of THAT.

Mmmmm? I just spotted that great moment when I had finished some Grade's session, and had walked out to a spot on a bridge over the Charles river. It was Spring in Boston, 1977. There were MANY beautiful boats in the harbor. I was just standing there, well no, the "body" was just standing there, and "I" was perfectly "there", with nothing else, my mind was entirely crystal clear, my space was immense, and I felt the jet plane fly "through me". I just now indicated to myself that EVERYTHING AFTER THAT was unnecessary and an OVERRUN! And, I line-charged for about 3 minutes! :thumbsup:

Oh, just to mention, as far as the OP of this thread goes, I NEVER experienced ANYTHING like "Derealisation". Whenever I got "blown out", the colors were routinely BRIGHTER, the details clearer, reality was always MORE THERE, and I felt wonderful.

Another problem with this approach of auditing is that you NEVER learn to actually MONITOR AND CONTROL your own inner space - thoughts, attention, concentration, imagination, agreements, postulates, etc. I wanted to get in the driver's seat instead of always sitting in the back seat. It was real to me that I could "adjust" my own postulates and agreements, I had read quite a bit of widely varied subjects that touched on this idea, and I had even begun experimenting with these ideas. But Hubbard does not even HINT at such abilities, much less provide tools to expand ones learning and skills in these areas. I think he was very WELL aware of how to do these things, having been involved in magick, but he seems to have purposely left all of that OUT. That was a BIG outpoint to me. It was a glaring screaming Red Flag. I "knew" deep down that THIS was the "key", and also that Scientology did NOT address it.

I did the PDC OT Course on Flag in 1995, and all of this stuff about the creation, maintenance and destruction of universes by way of postulates, agreements and considerations made total sense to me. It still pretty much does. But then, I found the course drills insufficient, and I would make up my own drills and essays as I went along! The Course Supervisor hated it, BUT I was doing SO WELL, I was "beaming", and I would just tell him how great it all was - and he left me alone. Rocky Lackey - I think that was his name. I read later that Hubbard's inspiration for these lectures was Crowley. That was fine with me, because I always liked Crowley (brilliant writer). I read books by him before and after Scientology.

A brief note. Some people stuff all ideas about "magick" into one tiny little cubby-hole. Usually, "it's all bad". Christians tend to do that. They are often indoctrinated to do so. But, the subject is HUGE. There are "big personalities" like Hubbard in some of it. But most importantly, as with many things, the subject provides "tools". In the end, it matters ONLY what YOU DO with these tools. There is a simple way to test "goodness" or "badness" (maybe in anything).

Positive - conducted for the benefit of others, and if conducted for self, it NEVER harms or intereferes with any free-willed thing (white magick, selfless, compassionate)

Negative - always conducted for the benefit of self, often at the expense or harm to others, or even with an aim to harm another intentionally and knowingly (black magick, ego, inconsiderate)

With this distinction, cripes, cigarette companies could be viewed as "black". :omg: Minimally, if you smoke for awhile, your lungs will turn "black". :whistling:

Note: As I see it, this ability to change reality at will with postulates can exist within a framework of "God", where you are very much a creative being, in the image of God, and that this ability might ultimately know no bounds. You are "part of God", in EVERY SENSE. But, in a strange incomprehensible and mystical way, the part CAN become the whole. There might be MANY universes, all based on differing postulate/agreement systems, with EACH shared by a near-infinite amount of beings. There my be as MANY of these as there are grains of sand on all the deserts and beaches of Earth. The "extent" of all "Creation" may include FAR MORE than what we perceive as "the universe". And STILL, all of this exists as a moment in the mind and heart of God! Could be . . . . :confused2:

See, when God made you "in His image", it was meant largely in the sense of His/Her creative powers. We each have a very active and real quality of creative imagination, and while this may now be a sort of "lower harmonic", it seems to me that as one possibly expands and gets to "know God", that it may occur at some point that you "merge" back into the central source. And, maybe not. :confused2:

But also, at a certain point of awareness, it just doesn't matter! This universe, and your participation in it, isn't going anyway anytime soon. So, sit back and enjoy the ride.

For awhile, when I was still involved with Scientology, I dubbed-in for myself that Hubbard must eventually get into the "real meat" above OT VIII. Maybe that is when all of the DRILLS will finally come out. But, noticing that the old OT levels simply jumped right into "operating exterior", I assumed that Hubbard wasn't EVER going to get into this stuff. What stuff? How to actively, with your own self-determinism, monitor, adjust, eradicate and create postulates and agreements at will.

That is the big tamale, and may even possibly open doors to other dimensions and alternate universes. Granted, that is entirely in the realm of supposition and guessing.

Nearly all of this sort of "negatve gain" auditing is NON-SPECIFIC in terms of WHAT actual aspects of your mind might be benefited. The gains are random and widely variable from person to person. In that, you have no control. There is absolutely no useful drilling or practice into the various aspects of learning to monitor and control your inner space. Something that ANY person could and would greatly benefit by.

Note: I suppose that the Expanded Grades bit so hard for me, because some of the processes involved the creative imagination, and NOT just getting rid of things.

Second, a major flaw with the whole package deal of organized Scientology is that while you might even actually be getting rid of important considerations and agreements that limit you as a being, you are quietly adopting a HUGE amount of new agreements according to the "Gospel According to Ron". One puts on a very thick pair of NEW glasses, no matter how high one travels up the Bridge. And, you are NEVER allowed to take those glasses off for a moment.

If anyone has a difficulty agreeing with that last part (because you still resonate with a certain amount of the indoctrination), just try to disagree with any aspect of KSW or modern management. First, you probably can't do it, because you are so heavily indoctrinated into this NEW set of agreements, and second, the Church with handle you very quickly if you try to do so.

Hubbard booby-trapped the whole thing. Why exactly, I don't know, and I don't really care. But he DID booby-trap it all. One cannot ever become senior to ones own agreements and considerations when you must exist within a strict framework that forces and demands the acceptance of some NEW crazy set of postulates and agreements (KSW, Scientology ethics and justice policies, on and on, ad nauseum).

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EP - Ethics Particle

Gold Meritorious Patron
May I have your attention!?

Splendid posting here you all! :thumbsup::clap: (yeah, I'm southern.:wink2:)

Within the limits of culture and society, I pretty much manage and direct my own attention. :yes: Or do I really? :confused2:

To whatever degree I do not exercise or have full volitional mastery over my own attention, then it could be argued that I am "suppressed" :unsure: or to some degree not aware. :confused2:

I find that any unwanted stimulus that pulls my attention away from where I have it... well, that sorta pisses me off. :grouch: (causes an ARC break, in Sciospeak). :whistling:

Attention management (one's own, particularly) IMO should be studied and taught...but when?:unsure:

Any thoughts or comments? :)

Now, please take your attention back, and do whatever you please. :coolwink:

Fall out and loll around! :happydance:

Whatever, it's your life!

EP
 

Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
Nice one

:thumbsup:

Most people believe there are spirits around us. I do. But Hubbard interpreted this as their being "stuck" to us. I don't agree with Hubbard's interpretation at all. It's part of the illusion/delusion.

We're all connected by virtue of being alive and that's a GOOD thing.

Whether we get a good or bad "suggestion" and whether it's from our own mind's experiences and interpretations or from around us isn't all that important to me. Suggestions are only that - we don't have to act on any of them.

With the exception of those with physiologically based mental or physical disabilities, don't we all have every single skill and characteristic that everyone else has, but in varying degrees?

Who isn't capable of destruction? Of jealousy, prejudice, anger, grief?

Isn't it better to accept our flaws and work hard at making our good characteristics stronger?

Scn is a crutch, an addiction like any other addiction:

Scientology:I feel pain, I'll get some auditing. That was grueling and painful and when I couldn't take it anymore, POP! I just was into outer space and felt great. That was so much better than real life.

Oops, I'm upset again. Back for more auditing.

Wow! I'd like to always feel this way! That would be true OT! I'm going to go all the way up the Bridge because Ron said I could feel this way permanently when I get to the top and I'll be a superbeing!

Drugs:I feel pain, I'll smoke a doogie. I feel great. I held the moon between my fingers.

Wow! I'd like to always feel this way! Then my mind would always be free! It's so much better than regular life. I want to go there permanently, it makes me feel like a superbeing!

Gambling:I feel bad, I want distraction. I just won a heap of money. I feel great!
Oh crap, lost the money. Better get more so I can get that feeling back.

Wow! I'd like to quit my job and win all the time for a living. I'm really special! Life is so boring otherwise! I can control the machines! I feel like a superbeing and want to feel like this forever!

Sex:
I was feeling unwanted and terrible about myself, then I had sex and feel refreshed and great! It was exciting and my body feels tingly and I felt so high! I want to feel that way always!

Wow! I really am a super desirable, irresistable being that no man can refuse! I want to feel this way all day long, every day! What an amazing high - I am a superbeing with special sexual powers! Ooops - I'm feeling normal again. Need more sex!

Food:
I was feeling unloved and terrible about myself, then I ate 3 chocolate cakes, ice cream and Kentucky Fried and I feel so satisfied, complete and full! I don't want anything and I am so nourished now!

Wow! I am a luscious person, just as luscious as chocolate cake and ice cream! I want to feel this way forever! I need more food!

Power:
What a high it was ordering people around and having them come to me for advice! I feel so huge, so special, bigger than life!

Wow! I am a true leader and God. I am above other people. I need to show them all the way. More people, more people, this is such a good feeling, how could it possibly be bad? I want to feel this way all the time and reach the height of my potential!

Extreme Sports:(saw this one on TV for Ripley's):
My dad & I took a bike for a month in the mountains. He nearly died and I was so sad. But he and I both made it and I feel great!

Wow! I'm going to do this every chance I can. What an adrenaline rush! I want to feel like this all the time, permanently! We made it when so many others didn't, we must be superbeings!

Nice one, GB, :clap: :yes:
 

Badass

Patron with Honors
.... a major flaw with the whole package deal of organized Scientology is that while you might even actually be getting rid of important considerations and agreements that limit you as a being, you are quietly adopting a HUGE amount of new agreements according to the "Gospel According to Ron". One puts on a very thick pair of NEW glasses, no matter how high one travels up the Bridge. And, you are NEVER allowed to take those glasses off for a moment.

If anyone has a difficulty agreeing with that last part (because you still resonate with a certain amount of the indoctrination), just try to disagree with any aspect of KSW or modern management. First, you probably can't do it, because you are so heavily indoctrinated into this NEW set of agreements, and second, the Church with handle you very quickly if you try to do so.

Hubbard booby-trapped the whole thing. Why exactly, I don't know, and I don't really care. But he DID booby-trap it all. One cannot ever become senior to ones own agreements and considerations when you must exist within a strict framework that forces and demands the acceptance of some NEW crazy set of postulates and agreements (KSW, Scientology ethics and justice policies, on and on, ad nauseum).
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I consider this part of your post of great importance, it is a very clear view of the whole thing.

Also, although I don´t believe in God, I do believe we have "something" which I can only describe as "The gift from God" :eyeroll: , and is the same thing you mention, it might be unknowable, and it might be undescribable, but that is the only thing that really maters to me now, and I just have to make an effort to describe it and to know it, and to practice it. I call it creativity or self-determinism, and it is the only "thing" that "never" changes and we "always" have :eyeroll::eyeroll:.


Your comments about positive and negative magik enlightened me (as all your posts do, actually):thumbsup:
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I consider this part of your post of great importance, it is a very clear view of the whole thing.

Also, although I don´t believe in God, I do believe we have "something" which I can only describe as "The gift from God" :eyeroll: , and is the same thing you mention, it might be unknowable, and it might be undescribable, but that is the only thing that really maters to me now, and I just have to make an effort to describe it and to know it, and to practice it. I call it creativity or self-determinism, and it is the only "thing" that "never" changes and we "always" have :eyeroll::eyeroll:.

Your comments about positive and negative magik enlightened me (as all your posts do, actually):thumbsup:

Yes, I also think that part of the post is very important. It involves one of the MANY LARGE contradictions inherent to the package deal subject of Scientology.

On magick, it is like ANY TOOL. It entirely depends on the INTENTION, GOAL, EXPERIENCE and SKILL of the person using the tool.

Thanks for mentioning the thing about "God". I am not any sort of "believer". I should really try to use a different word than "God", because it has too many "unintended connotations" to existing religions. I NEVER go to Church. I have never felt any desire to be "part of a Church". I do not "worship" anything. I think you are entirely right - it IS fundamentally "unknowable". But, we can each, from out little time on Earth, grasp a tiny part of it.

What really got me tuned into the whatever is behind it all was a close examination of Nature, both the big picture, astronomy, and the small picture, biology. What floored me was the incredible "organization", the amazingly detailed "structure", and the "patterns within patterns" at every level of creation. I can best call it some form of "intelligence" behind it all that acts as a modeling force, a sort of energy that defines & determines arrangement, that which creates and also keeps in place the "blueprint" of all MEST and life.

I suppose that I would be better off using the term "Universal Intelligence", as it is more "neutral" of a term. When I use the term "God", it includes everything that you said above and everything I just stated here.

I mean really, I have no idea if there is "one single entity", as described by the various monotheistic religions, that "created it all". I don't have a clue. But, I infer "something" because of the amazing complexity of patterning that I easily notice at every level of manifested reality. Now, maybe Richard Dawkins is right, and he provides convincing arguments in his excellent book, The Blind Watchmaker, in that while the watch may exist, there may not have ever been a "watch-maker". I don't see it, but it could be. :confused2: But, I do appreciate the complexity of organization, and whatever lies behind it - even if not an actual "creative source".

I would have to really spend some time and dig into this, because in the end I feel that I should be brutally honest, like an anal-retentive Buddhist to the n-th degree, and ONLY consider as true what I can directly experience. But then it gets VERY TRICKY, because if you and me, and various other "bigger beings" are fundamentally "creative", then reality may not be as "fixed" as one might assume. It may be tricky, because you may be an awareness unit, "the watcher", "the observer" or "the witness", AND you may also be a CREATIVE AGENT. Part creator, and also part observer. In Einstein's theory, the observer is entirely PASSIVE, and the universe it looks out upon was already there and is entirely indepedent. But, if we each possess a small bit of the creative intelligence of some larger Universal Intelligence, well then the Einsteinian analogy falls short of the mark.

From a Hindu perspective, the endless nothingness cycles into somethingness, and various tiny emanations of the nothingness act as "receivers of experience", as awareness units, but also the whole thing changes slowly over immense periods of time (it is not really fixed and unchanging - it only appears that way to our short time span - more relativity). It is like this. You dream a dream. You make the dream, but also, you particpate in the dream. While in it, you sort of "pretend" that it is "real" (pretense, lie, make-believe), but actually on another level, it is entirely an illusion, because it only exists when you PUT IT THERE. Said in other words, the universe is all a big pretense. It is an exercise in imagination (for the Uiversal Intelligence). It doesn't "really exist". But, for the time being, many of us assume that it exists, and forget that the illusion IS an illusion. It might be appropriate here to point out that various people who attain "high states" of awareness tend to lose all seriousness. Vedic literature gets into this a great deal - the relationship of the unmanifested and the manifested.

I do know this. Letting go of identifications, on every level, on every dynamic, is wonderful. Allowing "thinking" to fade into the background is wonderful. Appreciation of all-that-is IS wonderful, both up close and from afar. On that, I don't "worship", but I very much consciously acknowledge and appreciate the fact that I am HERE. I do not know WHAT exactly I am thanking, but I DO THANK "something" on a routine basis. That "universal intelligence"?

And, practicing attitudes that dissolve distinctions and separation is wonderful. I just feel better when I am tuned into to everything around me. It feels more "organic". It feels less "phony" and less "aritificial".

In the end, if it really doesn't matter, because our consciousness is simply an accidental by-product of random evolution, and there is NO spirit of any sort on any level, and we disappear entirely at death, well then, it still works for me to be the kindest, most loving and compassionate as I can be to everyone and anyone. If it "doesn't matter", well there is no reason not to still envision and put into practice the BEST that one can.

And, if the other way, well then Karma will most likely work in ones favor! :thumbsup:

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Badass

Patron with Honors
Yes, after clearing the point, God is as good as any other name, and I also do thank him regularly and feel inmersed in joy!:happydance:

Oh! shit! how can I be so corny? I´m risking to be nicknamed sweet ass so I will sign off now. But that is how it feels for me.....
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
Sorry for the delay, Gadfly. I was offline, busy with life these last few days!

Gottabrain, I have EVERY Alan Parson's album! I love all sorts of music, and very deeply at that (being a musician), but you picked here a stupendous song from a really great band!

Glad you like! :D

You just prompted me to take a look at something. For me, I have been practicing "being there with love and total admiration gazing at whatever falls in front of me", and consciously allowing and opening the line TO GOD. I have been trying to act as a clean and open channel TO GOD. To sort of "serve my purpose" as a tentacle - as it were.

It just never crossed my mind to let it flow BOTH WAYS!!!!!! :omg:

When you first posted that (on another thread) a few weeks ago, I had the same thought as you, but a few days earlier. It was refreshing to find someone else so in sync. Yes, the channel works both ways.

So how does one tell when it is God (the Supreme Being) v. other spirits?

My opinion is a person's personal humility is the key. When we ask for the strength to forgive (including ourselves), to be rid of temptations, to have more compassion and be more productive, happy and honest in our lives, that the will of God, of the universe, coincide with our own - we get that boost of strength, love and complete acceptance back - without interference from other spirits.

When we are arrogant, vain and self-righteous, we ask for the wrong things, things that demonstrate our flawed characters. We are not open to the Supreme Being then, but to other (lesser) spirits.

I am going to put that into practice. Now, I suppose that I have opened other channels "coming in" as I activily meditate, and when I visualize it is always done with the attitude that I am placing this "image" at the foot of "God" (the active Intelligence behind all structure and functioning throughout the Universe), and how and when it manifests is entirely up to Him/Her.

Note: Visualization can be thought of as a form of prayer, though it involves a more detailed set of exact models and mechanics than random "praying".

I see what you mean. It is the intent and state of the person (genuinely humble!) that makes the difference. It can go badly, too - opening channels to the wrong spirits.

People would benefit GREATLY by having available an active way to consciously change ones own agreements, considerations and ideas about all sorts of things. If it is true, and I see that it is, that ANY experience of the Universe is confined well within Einstein's theory of relativity, then it behooves any person to have at his or her disposal some set of tools to intentionally CHANGE ones set of ideas about everything. Because, as ones ideas change, so changes the very manner in which any person experiences the Universe. ...It is always relative.

Well not always. One CAN let go of all ideas and considerations, about everything on every dynamic, just wipe the slate clean, but you might be a bit uncomfortable suddenly finding yourself merging with and into all-that-is! At that point all sense of personal identity vanishes. I say this from experience, and not only from reading the reports of others about "mystical experiences". :happydance:

WOW. :thumbsup: Beautifully said, Gadfly. Yes, we all benefit from opening our minds to different views, particularly through compassion. And as for the rest, I found a really cool quote for you that I think you will enjoy:

"...They had chained him down to things that are, and had then explained the workings of those things till mystery had gone out of the world. When he complained..they turned him instead toward the newfound prodigies of science, bidding him wonder in the atom's vortex and mystery in the sky's dimensions."

..."So Carter had tried to do as others did, and pretended that the common events and emotions of earthly minds were more important than the fantasies of rare and delicate souls..."

..."Once in a while, though, he could not help seeing how shallow, fickle, and meaningless all human aspirations are, and how emptily our real impulses contrast with those pompous ideas we profess to hold..."

..."It wearied Carter to see how solemnly people tried to make earthly reality out of old myths which every step of their boasted science confuted, and this misplaced seriousness killed the attachment he migh have kept for the ancient creeds had they been content to offer the sonorous rites and emotional outlets in their true guise of ethereal fantasy.

But when he came to study those who had thrown off the old myths, he found them even more ugly than those who had not. They did not know that beauty lies in harmony, and that loveliness of life has no standard amidst the aimless cosmos save only its harmony with the dreams and the feelings which have gone before and blindly moulded our little spheres out of the rest of chaos. They did not see that good and evil and beauty and ugliness are only ornamental fruits of perspective..."

H. P. Lovecraft, "The Silver Key" 1937


This is an outstanding bit of prose with some very deep insights. You'd love this story. At the end, H.P. puts his character back to the realm of imagination, permanently, but with a question in the reader's mind of whether Carter actually achieved this in real life or not.

The bottom line, is Lovecraft makes it clear that our joy comes from our personal imaginations. Beautifully put throughout the story.

Some people will try to explain that as "disassociation" of ones personality, something that is viewed negatively, and which is also used as a way to explain what happens during "TRs" or "exteriorization". I have no doubt that these same psychologists would diagnose Buddha or Jesus with the same "mental disorder", so I don't give it much stock. In a sense, one does disassociate from everything. But, that is NOT necessarily a bad thing. The same happens with techniques that work to reduce or vanquish the "personal ego". In a certain regard, some branches of modern psychology don't like it when any member of society veers too far away from being a good, modern, well-indoctrinated "consumer".:

No, it is not a bad thing to have an escape outlet. Not at all! It is not a bad thing to go into the world of imagination, of things that might have been or might be, nor is it a bad thing to back off from the world from time to time. We shift attention from one thing to another, we look closely, we back away. Dissociation is more specific than that. It is mixing up the realm of imagination with the realm of reality and confusing the two to the point where one no longer feels comfortable with his/her normal life and actually separates parts of their personality from other parts. Dissociation is an escape from trauma to the world of the unreal or of imagination. It can make a person wooden in real life or to others because their hearts and energies go to the imaginary.

Very similar to what happens to alcoholics or drug abusers.

It's about keeping the balance and keeping it real dontcha think?

In changing the "state of the observer", affirmations have a great value. But, they need to be used in a context that includes parameters such as, "by this coming about nothing is harmed, and many things benefit", and "God will bring this to me in the best way possible, in ways that I, in my limited scope, can never possibly anticipate or imagine". In other words, it is best done with a firm awareness of and complete respect for the Intelligence behind it all. Affirmations are simply a tool. One can affirm nutty shit like Hubbard did, or something more like what the Dalai Lama does - he affirms "world peace". Basically, he spends time each day meditating/praying for "world peace". You can't get more "selfless" than that.

Yes, affirmations are helpful, I agree. It's good to get in habits of thinking positive things about one's self and the world.
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Yes, after clearing the point, God is as good as any other name, and I also do thank him regularly and feel inmersed in joy!:happydance:

Oh! shit! how can I be so corny? I´m risking to be nicknamed sweet ass so I will sign off now. But that is how it feels for me.....

((HUGGS))

Mary
 

Badass

Patron with Honors
And, what is left when you remove ALL sets of glasses? :yes: :yes:

Question above, answer below::yes::yes:

Mmmmm? I just spotted that great moment when I had finished some Grade's session, and had walked out to a spot on a bridge over the Charles river. It was Spring in Boston, 1977. There were MANY beautiful boats in the harbor. I was just standing there, well no, the "body" was just standing there, and "I" was perfectly "there", with nothing else, my mind was entirely crystal clear, my space was immense, and I felt the jet plane fly "through me". I just now indicated to myself that EVERYTHING AFTER THAT was unnecessary and an OVERRUN! And, I line-charged for about 3 minutes! :thumbsup:

+++++++

I was going to quote almost each paragraph of your post and make comments, but basically I agree with everything there, no need to repeat.

I´ve been reading the PDC lectures also, they contain a lot of interesting data which can be used to point at the crazyness in the CoS, but I have posted that already, so I´ll just say:

Vaya con Dios amigo!:thumbsup:

Ah! Y buen provecho con el Big Tamale!!!
 
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Free to shine

Shiny & Free
I do know this. Letting go of identifications, on every level, on every dynamic, is wonderful. Allowing "thinking" to fade into the background is wonderful. Appreciation of all-that-is IS wonderful, both up close and from afar. On that, I don't "worship", but I very much consciously acknowledge and appreciate the fact that I am HERE. I do not know WHAT exactly I am thanking, but I DO THANK "something" on a routine basis. That "universal intelligence"?

And, practicing attitudes that dissolve distinctions and separation is wonderful. I just feel better when I am tuned into to everything around me. It feels more "organic". It feels less "phony" and less "aritificial".

In the end, if it really doesn't matter, because our consciousness is simply an accidental by-product of random evolution, and there is NO spirit of any sort on any level, and we disappear entirely at death, well then, it still works for me to be the kindest, most loving and compassionate as I can be to everyone and anyone. If it "doesn't matter", well there is no reason not to still envision and put into practice the BEST that one can.

And, if the other way, well then Karma will most likely work in ones favor! :thumbsup:

++++++++

Thanks for your great posts Gadfly. It is sometimes too easy, when one is weighted down with the challenges of life, to forget to see the bigger picture. You have reminded me today, and it is timely. :)
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
:grouphug:I love it! :giggle: ( ditto on Alan Parsons Project! )

Oh Yippeee!!

Then one more for us all. Can't discuss Scn without this one!

watch


Don't think sorry's easily said
Don't try turning tables instead
You've taken lots of Chances before
But I'm not gonna give anymore
Don't ask me
That's how it goes
Cause part of me knows what you're thinkin'

Don't say words you're gonna regret
Don't let the fire rush to your head
I've heard the accusation before
And I ain't gonna take any more
Believe me
The sun in your Eyes
Made some of the lies worth believing

Chorus:
I am the eye in the sky
Looking at you
I can read your mind
I am the maker of rules
Dealing with fools
I can cheat you blind
And I don't need to see any more
To know that
I can read your mind, I can read your mind

Don't leave false illusions behind
Don't Cry cause I ain't chnaging my mind
So find another fool like before
Cause I ain't gonna live anymore believing
Some of the lies while all of the Signs are deceiving

I am the eye in the sky
Looking at you
I can read your mind
I am the maker of rules
Dealing with fools
I can cheat you blind
And I don't need to see any more
To know that
I can read your mind, I can read your mind
 
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