OT wins or Derealisation?

Gadfly

Crusader
When you first posted that (on another thread) a few weeks ago, I had the same thought as you, but a few days earlier. It was refreshing to find someone else so in sync. Yes, the channel works both ways.

So how does one tell when it is God (the Supreme Being) v. other spirits?

My opinion is a person's personal humility is the key. When we ask for the strength to forgive (including ourselves), to be rid of temptations, to have more compassion and be more productive, happy and honest in our lives, that the will of God, of the universe, coincide with our own - we get that boost of strength, love and complete acceptance back - without interference from other spirits.

When we are arrogant, vain and self-righteous, we ask for the wrong things, things that demonstrate our flawed characters. We are not open to the Supreme Being then, but to other (lesser) spirits.

I agree that humility is vital. That goes right along with personal ego reduction. In the end I thank the universe for every talent, ability and good fortune that comes my way - no matter how hard I "work" on my own.

I rarely have problems with "evil spirits" or forces. In the past, when I have, I simply flow it/them genuine love, compassion and grant it total beingness. I try to imitate how I imagine God might shower "grace" upon others. This does not apply to "real people" in the world. I always do my best to treat others with respect, love and compassion, but the "tough cases", meaning those who are evil or who are victims of their own tedious little belief systems, often do NOT respond to "love". They have cut themselves off from seeing it and feeling it, largely because they "think too much".

For instance, I could be at an Anonymous rally and flow genuine love at the OSA agent whispering confidential PC folder data into my ear in an attempt to introvert me. My only attitude is, "forgive them because they know not what they do". Simply, they are victims of stupidity, and unable to see or feel outside of their contrived little box of beliefs. I am aware that evil people can still hurt you no matter how you extend them love. Look at how the Chinese communists massacred many thousands of Tibetan monks. All the love in the universe didn't stop THAT from happening, and Tibetan Buddhists can be VERY adept at adopting states of consciousness at will (such as total love or compassion).


I see what you mean. It is the intent and state of the person (genuinely humble!) that makes the difference. It can go badly, too - opening channels to the wrong spirits.

Again, I never consciously open up to anything that is "low". I have no interest in it. I connected up with the 4th Chakra a number of years ago, which is the energy center and dimension of "compassion and love", and I am happily walking on THAT path for now. I still have more to go, and more to achieve with it. Supposedly Jesus was an emmissary for that energy. It works for me! I don't think that "humble" is even the right word. When one channels the "love of God" equally and evenly to all, even if only partially and imperfectly, one is often quite outside of the arena of concerns about "arrogant" or "humble". Because, you are pretty much outside of concerns for "self", separation is minimal, and "humble" is a concept that only works as a description of some interaction or comparison between people.

WOW. :thumbsup: Beautifully said, Gadfly. Yes, we all benefit from opening our minds to different views, particularly through compassion. And as for the rest, I found a really cool quote for you that I think you will enjoy:

"...They had chained him down to things that are, and had then explained the workings of those things till mystery had gone out of the world. When he complained..they turned him instead toward the newfound prodigies of science, bidding him wonder in the atom's vortex and mystery in the sky's dimensions."

..."So Carter had tried to do as others did, and pretended that the common events and emotions of earthly minds were more important than the fantasies of rare and delicate souls..."

..."Once in a while, though, he could not help seeing how shallow, fickle, and meaningless all human aspirations are, and how emptily our real impulses contrast with those pompous ideas we profess to hold..."

..."It wearied Carter to see how solemnly people tried to make earthly reality out of old myths which every step of their boasted science confuted, and this misplaced seriousness killed the attachment he migh have kept for the ancient creeds had they been content to offer the sonorous rites and emotional outlets in their true guise of ethereal fantasy.

But when he came to study those who had thrown off the old myths, he found them even more ugly than those who had not. They did not know that beauty lies in harmony, and that loveliness of life has no standard amidst the aimless cosmos save only its harmony with the dreams and the feelings which have gone before and blindly moulded our little spheres out of the rest of chaos. They did not see that good and evil and beauty and ugliness are only ornamental fruits of perspective..."

H. P. Lovecraft, "The Silver Key" 1937


I would add that attachment for ANYTHING, new beliefs OR "old beliefs", is equally "hindering".

And, the last paragrapgh is sublimely stupendous!!!!!! :happydance:

Thanks for sharing that.

This is so hard to explain. I have spent a great deal of time with open-eyed meditation on Nature. While appreciating the beauty of a young doe, a new sprouting of a bud in Spring, or some pastoral view, I hit points where I realize that it is ONLY I who "add the perception of beauty" to the mix. It isn't there by itself. I back off from that, and find myself simply observing random unorganized energy forms, with no meaning or significance at all. For instance, the tree stops "being a tree" for me, because I have let go of ALL meaning and all additives to my perception. But, then I come back, and what Lovecraft said above is so true:

"They did not see that good and evil and beauty and ugliness are only ornamental fruits of perspective".

But, THAT is part of our "job", as a tentacle, to ADD this subtle component of the perception of beauty to the mix. In other words, to "admire and appreciate" the amazing creative and organizing skills of the Universal Intelligence. Beauty and harmony, to me, are displayed in the incredible repeating "patterns" inherent at all levels of creation. Man creates some great stuff, with "music" being the "closest to God" (since it is significance-free), but the inherent organization and patterning in the heavens and earth tower over all of that.


This is an outstanding bit of prose with some very deep insights. You'd love this story. At the end, H.P. puts his character back to the realm of imagination, permanently, but with a question in the reader's mind of whether Carter actually achieved this in real life or not.

The bottom line, is Lovecraft makes it clear that our joy comes from our personal imaginations. Beautifully put throughout the story.

There is nothing "out there" in terms of beauty, joy, love or anything else. It is ONLY a person who CREATES beauty, joy, or love while experiencing, participating in or gazing upon some aspect of the universe. I love the way you explain it, that our joy comes from our personal imaginations. I agree! :yes:

No, it is not a bad thing to have an escape outlet. Not at all! It is not a bad thing to go into the world of imagination, of things that might have been or might be, nor is it a bad thing to back off from the world from time to time. We shift attention from one thing to another, we look closely, we back away. Dissociation is more specific than that. It is mixing up the realm of imagination with the realm of reality and confusing the two to the point where one no longer feels comfortable with his/her normal life and actually separates parts of their personality from other parts. Dissociation is an escape from trauma to the world of the unreal or of imagination. It can make a person wooden in real life or to others because their hearts and energies go to the imaginary.

My point is that some people try to equate meditative states, or "exterior", or "being totally in PT", with "dissociation". For me, I can ALWAYS keep a very good line between "out there", my imagination, going thoughtless for periods of time, and reality is always bright, vibrant and dynamic, even moreso when I am "in PT". I never try to excape. I try to spread myself out into the world as much as I can.

Very similar to what happens to alcoholics or drug abusers.

It's about keeping the balance and keeping it real dontcha think?

Not really. Today I went into town. I did a drill where I practice being totally in PT, while extending love to whoever/whatever falls in my path (the guy who cuts me off, the lady who bumps into me at the store, the neighbor who drives over my grass and destroys a section, etc). I am entirely disassociated from "self". I had a great conversation with the lady at the health food store, letting her interests lead the conversation. It was entirely REAL. And I was entirely NOT "myself". But then, I don't think that I ever "suffer" from anything remotely similar to "dissociation". I can consciously "step out" if I want to. I do it more and more. It is freeing really.

Yes, affirmations are helpful, I agree. It's good to get in habits of thinking positive things about one's self and the world.

Mine above in BOLD dark red.

As long as one still "thinks", as responses and self-created dramas about involvement with some aspect of the universe, then it most certainly helps to "program" ones thinking in better directions (depending on whatever your current goals are). I see that it as an "ideal" to be able to put up and tear down an entire mental universe for self. Attitudes, beliefs, emotions, agreements, etc. Affirmations and visualization help in that. Very little else does, at least not in any sense where YOU choose WHAT goes into your mind. Most people's minds are "victims" or "reactions" to environmental influences (stimuli). Including interest in some religion. A person ends up developing attitudes, opinions, ideas and beliefs, but NOT in any self-determined sense, and ONLY as an accidental by-product of resonating with something contacted "out there". Most people do NOT deal with their own "beliefs" as BELIEFS. They experience these things as "true" or "obvious". They do not notice that it is the person him or herself who CREATES the belief about everything and everything.

The nature and mechanics or "belief" is a touchy subject for any person who believes in something strongly. The clear sign about it all is that so many people can have differing and contradictory beliefs, yet all be entirely convinced that he or she is "right". In the end, for me, the ONLY positive beliefs are those that include a very well-stressed notion that "everybody sees it differently", and that "no one person or religion has the whole answer or picture". It is from THAT much HIGHER awareness and understanding that comes true and natural tolerance and compassion for all. But, the problem is that most religions do NOT contain THAT as a vital aspect. They are incomplete as a result.

But also, and I would be dishonest if I didn't add this, my concern for these things has been decreasing because for me the biggest challenge NOW is simply forgetting about self and allowing the love of the universe to flow through me out towards all else around me. For me, at this point on my little journey, THAT is what it seems that I need to master. Part of that involves simplifying life. Less needs, less stuff, and less MEST things that require maintenance. Less care or concern for income. Little concern for how I appear to others or what others think about me.

And, taking some daily action to help real people in real ways (such as reading to an old woman at a shelter, knocking the edge off of an elderly person's lonliness, helping the neighbor with a choir, etc.). And, if you do have a job, doing the best that you can to benefit your client or customer.

And mostly, doing whatever is required based on your current situations in life with love, compassion, care and understanding.

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Gadfly

Crusader
I was going to quote almost each paragraph of your post and make comments, but basically I agree with everything there, no need to repeat.

I´ve been reading the PDC lectures also, they contain a lot of interesting data which can be used to point at the crazyness in the CoS, but I have posted that already, so I´ll just say:

Vaya con Dios amigo!:thumbsup:

Ah! Y buen provecho con el Big Tamale!!!

Scientology can be difficult to fathom. In part, that is because some of it functions simply as a "tool", such as the data on "the creation, maintenance, and destruction of universes" in the PDC tapes, or various auditing techniques, or contact assists. In the right hands, with an honest and sincere intention to HELP the recipient, one can obtain VERY good results.

What makes it hard to fathom is that these tools exist in an utterly insane administrative framework, based on insane goals and purposes as set out in KSW. And, "some" of the administrative items CAN function also as "tools". For instance, it is generally a good idea to "pay off all bills" when enjoying a condition of "affluence". It is an idea that makes sense and when applied can "make things better". When I had a business, and when my junior screwed up a job, then I had to go in and do it myself, handle the situation that could have resulted in me losing an important account, and quickly HANDLE THE DANGER (to my business and livlihood). And, after that I had to FIX the empliyee so that he didn't make THAT mistake again. That was simple application of a "danger formula".

There are many "tools" in Hubbard's subject, that can be used for "good" or "for bad". But there are also MANY crazy arbitraries strewn throughout the policies that cannot help but create fanaticism, extreme behavior, and oppression. And, which put an evil slant onto many of the neutral "tools".

A major problem is that it can take 20 years of someone's life to figure that all out. It is best to just stay away from it all completely in this case, if the contact will be with organized Scientology (C of S).

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Gadfly

Crusader
Thanks for your great posts Gadfly. It is sometimes too easy, when one is weighted down with the challenges of life, to forget to see the bigger picture. You have reminded me today, and it is timely. :)

Yeah, sometimes I feel like a "cheater", because I have set up my life with little or no "stress", very little demands, and I live on a secluded mountain surrounded by hundreds of acres of forest and raw nature. How could I be anything other than "peaceful" and "serene"? :confused2:

I mean, I talk it up at times, but I do very much realize that I "have it so easy". I am so thankful. Though, I suppose I did make it happen, and created the environment that I wanted to "go the effect of".

On a certain level I realized that every person is somewhat or greatly determined by ones surrounding environmental forces, demands and influences. Knowing that, I decided what environment was necessary to bring about the "me" that I desired. Thus a small home in the woods. It worked. But, I am ready to move on.

I am glad that you got something out of whatever I wrote. Honestly, I don't feel like these are so much "my ideas", but more that I am simply recording obvious observations that some aspect of me "witnesses".

Appreciate and admire the incredible wonder that is around each of us at every second of every day. There is just so much of it. Stop, and smell the roses. They smell really nice! :yes:

I think the above, if practiced, can benefit anybody. For me, now, THAT is "my religion". I need little else.

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G

Gottabrain

Guest
My point is that some people try to equate meditative states, or "exterior", or "being totally in PT", with "dissociation". For me, I can ALWAYS keep a very good line between "out there", my imagination, going thoughtless for periods of time, and reality is always bright, vibrant and dynamic, even moreso when I am "in PT". I never try to excape. I try to spread myself out into the world as much as I can.

I know an ex-cult member from a non-Scn cult whose cult also believed in being "in present time" at all times.

To do so means to disconnect from one's past, one's personal connections and experiences, one's beliefs, one's personality.

It certainly does make one open to cult indoctrination - in fact, it's a vital part of re-indoctrination. But as you mentioned, it also has positive effects - when under the person's personal control and outside conartists and cult influences.

Not really. Today I went into town. I did a drill where I practice being totally in PT, while extending love to whoever/whatever falls in my path (the guy who cuts me off, the lady who bumps into me at the store, the neighbor who drives over my grass and destroys a section, etc). I am entirely disassociated from "self". I had a great conversation with the lady at the health food store, letting her interests lead the conversation. It was entirely REAL. And I was entirely NOT "myself". But then, I don't think that I ever "suffer" from anything remotely similar to "dissociation". I can consciously "step out" if I want to. I do it more and more. It is freeing really.

...for me the biggest challenge NOW is simply forgetting about self and allowing the love of the universe to flow through me out towards all else around me.

Gadfly, there is dissociation that is a sort of "daydreaming" and then there is dissociation that is over the top - where the escape to the land of illusion becomes the answer to discomfort or problems rather than resolving the problems by one's own actions. People who are dissociated often remember things from a position apart from themselves or see themselves as separate from their person. I can't say if what you are doing is healthy or unhealthy for you, but dissociation ALWAYS FEELS GOOD. It always feels "freeing", whether it is harmful or not - that is not to say that it IS good or that it is genuinely freeing. It is still the personal world of imagination and illusion. Anything in excess is most certainly BAD. Personally, I wouldn't pursue it as a permanent state as you say you are doing and to be honest, this concerns me, because those with a dissociative illness don't recognize it in themselves. You sound as if you are sort of half in/half out of yourself. Been there, done that. It felt good, but it was horribly harmful to focusing on conducting my own life and normal resolution of normal problems or upsets and to full integration of self. That's me - I can't really say whether yours is healthy or not, mate. I really don't know. :confused2:

There are volumes of info on this. Not "disassociation" as you wrote - "dissociation" is the term. Here's a bit of info: http://healingaftertrauma.com/free-articles/has-dissociation-after-a-trauma-left-you-feeling-spacey

As long as one still "thinks", as responses and self-created dramas about involvement with some aspect of the universe, then it most certainly helps to "program" ones thinking in better directions (depending on whatever your current goals are). I see that it as an "ideal" to be able to put up and tear down an entire mental universe for self. Attitudes, beliefs, emotions, agreements, etc. Affirmations and visualization help in that. ...for me the biggest challenge NOW is simply forgetting about self and allowing the love of the universe to flow through me out towards all else around me. For me, at this point on my little journey, THAT is what it seems that I need to master. Part of that involves simplifying life. Less needs, less stuff, and less MEST things that require maintenance. Less care or concern for income. Little concern for how I appear to others or what others think about me.

And, taking some daily action to help real people in real ways (such as reading to an old woman at a shelter, knocking the edge off of an elderly person's lonliness, helping the neighbor with a choir, etc.). And, if you do have a job, doing the best that you can to benefit your client or customer.

And mostly, doing whatever is required based on your current situations in life with love, compassion, care and understanding.

This is all very nice, Gadfly. :thumbsup:

Thinking is not bad. It is necessary for FOCUS. And focus is necessary to accomplish most things in life to an excellent, professional result. But thinking should be directed toward a particular activity, for sure.

Many have gone insane tearing down all that is real for themselves - even some of the greatest mathematicians. I don't think that's the way to freedom. But maybe that's just me. I like who I am and how I got here, too - even with all my flaws. :yes:
 
Just caught up with this thread and there's lots of interesting thoughts in it.

I think Hubbard's messing with occult stuff has coloured his ramblings on things spiritual to an enormous degree and that it's something that's often overlooked when discussing scientology.

It's all about CONTROL of other beings - that's why "OT" is "cause over ... thought and life" - it's what every "black" magician desired. The ability to lord it over fellow beings.

Pushing someone into total delusionland is a great way of controlling them. And that IMO is what Hubbard desired in the end. Whether he started out that way, I don't know. But he was certainly at that point when he started the SO.

The biggest problem I had on OT III and whenever I audited others on repairs on it was the "Command the BT/cluster to ..." - to me, that totally violated the Auditors Code data about granting beingness, not invalidating or evaluating etc etc. I could never do it and always "chatted" to the being involved, rather than ordered. Funnily enough, I could never say this to another scientologist as it was "out-Tech" to just "talk" to another being who didn't have a body - BTS must be DBs because they aren't up to running a body by themselves. They need to be "cleared" per Hubbard.

I've always had an ability to perceive and communicate with beings without bodies - I've encountered plenty at funerals and aboriginal sacred sites before and after I fell for Hubbard's nonsense. But I believe this is far different from Feral's OP of being disassociated from the world around us. This world includes a lot of spiritual beings and phenomena IMO.

It's not a spiritual battlefield where "only the tigers survive," despite Hubbard's delusions to the contrary. And being smashed into believing you are "detached from the universe" only ever happened to me when I was REALLY stoned and actually incapable of thinking anything logical.

This is a very good post, Paul, you Squirrel, you! :D You and I must be related! :thumbsup: I really understand and agree with your viewpoint on this...when I first heard about BT's and the need for supposedly "getting them to blow" my response was to reply, "can't I just make pets of them?" :D Needless to say, not a popular response at the time...:eyeroll:

I think it's lovely to grant beings their beingness...all us beings, still fleshed or not...

I was not the right kind of follower to ever succeed in Scientology! (Lucky me!:p)
 

Gadfly

Crusader
S & L; I fixed the "quotes" and image


I suppose, what I learned is that "just because something is in my space does NOT make its stuff mine, nor mine its, and I can differentiate between the two, and treat these thingies like any other of God's creatures - grant it beingness and love it as another tentacle of the Infinite".

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flying-spaghetti-monster.jpg


How we know why Adam had such an inferiority complex! Look at his pair next to Dad's! :bigcry: :angry: :melodramatic:


:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
 
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Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
How about -

Yes, after clearing the point, God is as good as any other name, and I also do thank him regularly and feel inmersed in joy!:happydance:

Oh! shit! how can I be so corny? I´m risking to be nicknamed sweet ass so I will sign off now. But that is how it feels for me.....

How about Sweet Badass? :bighug:
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
Just caught up with this thread and there's lots of interesting thoughts in it.

I think Hubbard's messing with occult stuff has coloured his ramblings on things spiritual to an enormous degree and that it's something that's often overlooked when discussing scientology.

It's all about CONTROL of other beings - that's why "OT" is "cause over ... thought and life" - it's what every "black" magician desired. The ability to lord it over fellow beings.

Pushing someone into total delusionland is a great way of controlling them. And that IMO is what Hubbard desired in the end. Whether he started out that way, I don't know. But he was certainly at that point when he started the SO.

:thumbsup: Great post, Scooter. That's it in a nutshell, isn't it?

Erik Erikson theorized that adults who feel an irrational need to control never fully developed out of the psychosocial stage of toilet training. Erikson took it further than Freud - he felt that children who successfully complete this stage of learning to control their bodily functions led to feel secure and confident, while those who do not are left with a sense of inadequacy and self-doubt.
 

AnonKat

Crusader
I actually like this

L Ron Hubbard : God was feeling sardonic the day He created the Universe. So it's rather up to at least one man every few centuries to pop up and come just as close to making him swallow his laughter as possible.

Let's beat up God for his shitty creation :coolwink: :thumbsup:
 
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