OT WTF.

Mest Lover

Not Sea Org Qualified
I am curious. Not that it would change my mind about SCN, but just add to the pile.

I am assuming that at least a few of the EX-SCN crowd are OTs.

What level are you?
Do you consider it worth anything?
Do you regret investing in it?
Is it a sore spot that you see other Exes belittling, badgering, degrading and outright claiming Scamology to it?
Do you feel that any of the OT levels are worth anything?

Do you feel that the Church is just MU'ed in it's current state?
Would you return if DM was Declared?

Not gonna change my mind. I spent my time avoiding it all.

You might enlighten others with your thoughts pro or con, truth to you.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
1. What level are you?
2. Do you consider it worth anything?
3. Do you regret investing in it?
4. Is it a sore spot that you see other Exes belittling, badgering, degrading and outright claiming Scamology to it?
5. Do you feel that any of the OT levels are worth anything?
6. Do you feel that the Church is just MU'ed in it's current state?
7. Would you return if DM was Declared?

(I added numbers)

1. I did up to New OT4 in the CofS. I've done a bunch of stuff since, some of my own invention. No labels to add.

2. Yes.

3. No. I didn't spend any money on courses or auditing beyond £5 for the comm course, but I spent 23 years in the SO. I don't regret the time I spent there.

4. Not at all. They got what they did (or didn't) out of their own experiences.

5. I feel like I got something out of OT2 and OT3 over and above the status value and the "open sesame" value of being able to "do confidential things" in the cult.

6. No. It's a complete goner and the sooner it ceases to exist (preferably with victims made as whole as possible) the better.

7. No.

These answers are short but I've written extensively about each of these points before and don't feel like writing it again, even if it's impossible to find again.

Paul
 

Mest Lover

Not Sea Org Qualified
Thank you.

BTW, you are one of the reasons I feel confident in speaking freely now. Thank you for being there.
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
now, sorry to put this here, but I looked at OT, and I wondered why is something 'off-topic (OT)' and what the fuck was in the eval/crit of Scio (I understand when it winds up in the general), and reading it, I finally went OMFG! The OP meant OT as in operating thetan.... fuck.... never EVER thought I'd see the day when my brain would read OT as the internet-speak of off-topic... I'm kinda amazed. \

Now return you to your regular scheduled thread:wink2: Allons-y!
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I am curious. Not that it would change my mind about SCN, but just add to the pile.

I am assuming that at least a few of the EX-SCN crowd are OTs.

What level are you?

I did up through OT III, and 50 hours of FPRD OT III style.

Do you consider it worth anything?

Not so much the OT Levels themselves, but everything that led up to them. I had a great deal of "charge" blow off on OT II - where energy layers peeled off for about 15 minutes. It was amazing. But, at no time did I feel an specific gain or ability from any of it.

Do you regret investing in it?

No. I did it all a long time ago and it was very inexpensive then, especially with the sliding scale discounts and staff discounts on top of that. Again, I am talking about ALL of it, not just the OT levels. I feel that for who I was at the time it was EXACTLY what I needed - on many levels. I learned a great deal about myself and how people can be deceived and controlled.

Is it a sore spot that you see other Exes belittling, badgering, degrading and outright claiming Scamology to it?

No. To each his own. I got quite a bit out of it, because I put a great deal into it (including my own imagination and delusions). There IS something to Scientology, and I just don't think that anyone has quite correctly yet put their finger on what combination of things that is. And, some of that is not necessarily "good" (even though it might feel good at times).

Do you feel that any of the OT levels are worth anything?

Yeah, I got something out of them . . . I just have no idea what that was exactly. They were "fun". My affinity and love increased for other people as a result of auditing all the poor little trapped thetans (OT III). Even if it were entirely imaginary, it STILL had that effect. I could explain why that might be, but I am not inclined to at the moment.

Do you feel that the Church is just MU'ed in it's current state?

No. The Church of Scientology is an abomination, and can be no other way as it is based on nasty crazy LRH orders and policies.

Would you return if DM was Declared?

:hysterical: NOPE!

My problems with the Church of Scientology run far deeper, and sit with Hubbard, not DM. DM is simply a lock on the chain, Hubbard is BASIC-BASIC. The craziness and insanity of organized Scientology rests upon the many LRH policies and orders that makes it so crazy and insane. There is no version of organized Scientology that cannot be anything but nuts as long as it models itself upon the exact ideas and dictates of Hubbard as spelled out in the OEC, Ethics P/Ls, Justice P/Ls, Management Series, and OSA N/W Orders.

The only solution is to curl up and die.


Not gonna change my mind. I spent my time avoiding it all.

You might enlighten others with your thoughts pro or con, truth to you.

Mine above in BOLD.
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
I am curious. Not that it would change my mind about SCN, but just add to the pile.

I am assuming that at least a few of the EX-SCN crowd are OTs.

What level are you?
Do you consider it worth anything?
Do you regret investing in it?
Is it a sore spot that you see other Exes belittling, badgering, degrading and outright claiming Scamology to it?
Do you feel that any of the OT levels are worth anything?

Do you feel that the Church is just MU'ed in it's current state?
Would you return if DM was Declared?

Not gonna change my mind. I spent my time avoiding it all.

You might enlighten others with your thoughts pro or con, truth to you.

(I added numbers)

1. I did up to New OT4 in the CofS. I've done a bunch of stuff since, some of my own invention. No labels to add.

2. Yes.

3. No. I didn't spend any money on courses or auditing beyond £5 for the comm course, but I spent 23 years in the SO. I don't regret the time I spent there.

4. Not at all. They got what they did (or didn't) out of their own experiences.

5. I feel like I got something out of OT2 and OT3 over and above the status value and the "open sesame" value of being able to "do confidential things" in the cult.

6. No. It's a complete goner and the sooner it ceases to exist (preferably with victims made as whole as possible) the better.

7. No.

These answers are short but I've written extensively about each of these points before and don't feel like writing it again, even if it's impossible to find again.

Paul

What level are you?
I completed OT III

Do you consider it worth anything?
Yes. But.

I'm certain that Eckhart Tolle's writings or Thich Nhat Hahn's works are far far more valuable and would result in a more stable less circuitous enhanced serenity and calm. I tried to rehab the Solo Course a year or so ago with an eye toward rehabbing some of the gains from OT III and maybe going further - and realized how much crap was laden onto the course that had nothing at all to do with auditing or clearing or case at all. Technical Degrades, KSW, the rote and mechanical facets of sitting in the chair, the handwritten templates, the volcanoes - all these layers of significances and importances and they ARE ALL BULLSHIT. There may be some truth in the center of this, but separating it from the complete horseshit takes a tremendous acceptance of your own gullibility and foolishness.

And beyond that I found for myself how much I created and caused my case by trying to handle it. You create what you put your attention on, a truth I found in the PDC lectures and have found valuable, but have found reflected in many many other places.

Do you regret investing in it?
In the OT levels? No. It was relatively inexpensive for me, and I didn't grind away for years and years on OT VII thank god. I had minimal contact with FLAG and once I did, after OT III, I hated the place. Loathed the Mecca of Technical Perfection. There was just something off about it, that actually caused me to withdraw from any services. Thank you, FLAG, for being there for that.

Is it a sore spot that you see other Exes belittling, badgering, degrading and outright claiming Scamology to it?
Nope. Any truths were completely accidental and secondary to the original purpose of lining L Ron Hubbard's pockets.

Do you feel that any of the OT levels are worth anything?
If they were open-sourced, and separated from the policy and the bullshit of Scientology, as a pure spiritual exercise - maybe. There are better paths. Buddhism.
 
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Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
On OT VII - I had a BT that I really liked....he/she gave me intense orgasm's remotely w/o touching my privates - and because I did not do it to myself....it was not masturbating so no w/o to $$$ get-off (no pun intended :coolwink:) on my 6 mo sex chex! :biggrin:

I could not resist - no disrespect for the thread...just being my sarcastic Idle Morgish self tonight!

I never did any Oat Tea levels cuz I realized I was more Oat Tea than any Oat Tea I ever met in the cult of Scamonology and if I did do the Oat tea levels...I would lose my Oat Tea abilities and go broke!

No inval for those that had wins - I just did not see anyone that did them "BE" the super star Scientology $ELL$!!
 

ChurchOfCylontology

Patron with Honors
I got quite a bit out of it, because I put a great deal into it (including my own imagination and delusions). There IS something to Scientology, and I just don't think that anyone has quite correctly yet put their finger on what combination of things that is. And, some of that is not necessarily "good" (even though it might feel good at times)..

This is probably one of the better responses to "Is it a sore spot that you see other Exes belittling, badgering, degrading and outright claiming Scamology to it?" and to "Do you regret investing in it?" (I know that the quoted response above was to just the first question) that I've seen. If/when science (or academics) finally get around to dissecting, testing, or otherwise analyzing the tech in a controlled environment they will probably come to similar (albeit much more wordy) conclusions. In my opinion, it is like anything else in life that requires an emotional, financial, and time commitment - the benefits will depend on how much input the end user puts into it. It's the net cost to the end user, whether it be financial ruin, familial ruin, or mental ruin that determine the 1) safety of the practice to the general public, and 2) cost-benefit ratio.

You can deconstruct and analyze the tech to its basic tenets and its effects/impact in a controlled study (without the cultish phobias, fear-based pressure and blackmail) and probably chart the results. I'd bet that you'd get the same general statistical curve that you'd get from a similar, stripped down study on basic talk therapy (using subjects that are without major psychological disorders). In other words, you'll get outliers of "didn't work, hated it" and "worked, was the best thing ever" and most would fall somewhere in the middle.

But I think your one sentence of "I put a great deal into it (including my own imagination and delusions)" speaks more to the benefits than anything else I've read in my many years reading the subject. It says a lot, and you probably didn't realize that you actually had your finger on that exact combination of things that make it so beneficial.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
But I think your one sentence of "I put a great deal into it (including my own imagination and delusions)" speaks more to the benefits than anything else I've read in my many years reading the subject. It says a lot, and you probably didn't realize that you actually had your finger on that exact combination of things that make it so beneficial.

I realized what I said. But, it is very difficult to explain (which is unusual for me). :biggrin:

The imagination is probably the LEAST understood of all the many faculties of the mind.

Some say it is the doorway to other dimensions, to other realities, to entire new worlds. My current opinion is that they are correct.

Having studied and messed around with quite a few different paradigms, including meditation, channeling, chakra therapy, Kundalini Yoga, creative visualization, affirmations, trance, self-hypnosis, magick, and more, the common thread - the use of the imagination - runs through them all. Sometimes one knows and is aware that one is utilizing the creative imagination, as in magick, but in many other cases, as with Scientology, Christian prayer, or various New Age scenarios, one is sort of "tricked" into using it.

Scientology gets a person creating an entire model of reality, and especially, much of the auditing involves CREATING situations in ones mind. It doesn't really even matter whether the "pasts" were true or ever happened. It doesn't matter if there were or are BTs, the act of imagining BTs, and helping them one by one, DOES something. I will give an analogy, a similarity.

I once did some exercises to contact unconditional love. I imagined it and felt it. I directed it to grow and spread out. I imagined it contacting people in my town, covering them with warm arms, as would any mother with her child. I imagined it going out further, covering the towns around my town. I spent about an hour doing this, getting it out further and further, seeing each person as if they were my own child. I covered the entire planet. At some point something SNAPPED. Something exploded in my being. I was deeply affected and changed.

It was real. It happened. But I "made it all up". Ones own imagination creates things and effects oneself. Scientology auditing coaxes one to do things with the imagination. I suspect THAT is the true source of most effects it has on anybody. I am pretty sure that THAT is especially true for the OT levels (old and new). When a person ran the old OT 4, 5 and 6 (from Route 1 of the Creation of Human Ability), one IMAGINED it all. And things happened.

In various forms of astral travel and methods designed to leave the body, one IMAGINES situations like sitting on a swing in your head, and swinging back and forth, further and further, until you pop out. Most people never master the use of the imagination, not as a disciplined activity as is taught in some occult circles. Scientology never gets one to master it either, but does "trick" one into using it to some degree. For example, on OT III one trains to direct attention, and to direct a tight focus of concentration on a specific location, and to keep it there - while imagining auditing commands quietly in your head at the area. THAT does something, regardless whether there ever was an OT III incident or scenario at all. Hubbard himself may not have known what he was actually doing.

In Kundalini Yoga, one imagines the various Chakras (energy centers), and also the powerful Serpent Fire energy at the base of the spine. One envisions (imagines) this energy moving up through the energy centers - and THINGS HAPPEN. Amazing things happen.

It has been said in occult literature that the creative human imagination sets subtle currents into motion in the finer astral and etheric worlds (that interconnect with the physical). For most humans the imagination is so rough and uncontrolled, that these etheric patterns lack any direction and consistency. But, when the imagination is directed, controlled and focused, then the etheric patterns can form into more detailed and persisting patterns (and also interact with the other planes). It takes lots of time and hard work to train the human imagination. Scientology only scratches the surface.

I think the answer lies somewhere along the lines of what I just tried to describe.

Some have also said that the human imagination is but a lower harmonic of the same basic characteristic in the Creative Intelligence that thought the entire universe into existence. At this stage in human evolution this imagination is infantile, unruly, not yet disciplined or well-trained. When you close your eyes and picture a cat, when you put it there and then look at it, you are CREATING that image newly, right there in that subtle mental space. That is just a very simple example of using the creative imagination. In a sense a similar thing happened when God said, "Let there be light, and there was light". He/She/It dreamt the dream, or thought the thought, and then instantly/simultaneously looked at it - and it was GOOD!

In Scientology, while one never consciously exercises the imagination as the imagination, one does do so unknowingly, as directed through the auditing and by the acceptance of the Scientology belief system. This strange mixture called Scientology appeals to the imagination, unbeknownst to all, and it seems THAT is where the alchemy occurs.
 
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LongTimeGone

Silver Meritorious Patron
I am curious. Not that it would change my mind about SCN, but just add to the pile.

I am assuming that at least a few of the EX-SCN crowd are OTs.

1. What level are you?
2. Do you consider it worth anything?
3. Do you regret investing in it?
4. Is it a sore spot that you see other Exes belittling, badgering, degrading and outright claiming Scamology to it?
5. Do you feel that any of the OT levels are worth anything?

6. Do you feel that the Church is just MU'ed in it's current state?
7. Would you return if DM was Declared?

Not gonna change my mind. I spent my time avoiding it all.

You might enlighten others with your thoughts pro or con, truth to you.

1. I completed New OTV
2. Absolutely worthless.
3. Boy do I regret tossing my money away on it. Hardly an investment!!
4. I am one of those who belittle, badger, degrade and claim it is a scam.
5. No; not worth a "hill of beans".
6. I think the "church" is fraudulent in its claims and corrupt in its activities.
7. Never in a billion years.

I was trained up to Class VI - The SHSBC was interesting and I can probably speak and write better because of my involvement in this cult, but the cost, financially, mentally and emotionally, far outweighed the benefits.

LTG
 

Veda

Sponsor
In May 1963, L. Ron Hubbard defined "Implant" as "an electronic means of overwhelming a thetan with a significance."

This was at the time that Hubbard was reemphasizing the importance of "running implants," and, as was the pattern, Hubbard would first explain to Scientologists that evil beings had done such and such to them to keep them from being free, and then promptly turn around (as any clever con man, trickster, and mind-manipulator would) and use the same such and such on his trusting and smiling followers.

Hubbard had become the Implanter, and e-meters were to be the "electronic means," and the "overwhelm" would be accompanied by much celebrated "Floating Needles" and "floating Tone Arms."

And who suspected?

After all, every one was "winning," and if someone wasn't "winning," well, that was very very bad. One does not want to be a non "winning" person on the OT levels. The stigma alone is unpleasant. So, it was a pretty neat set up.

Did Hubbard believe any of this?

I think, at some point he started to believe it, and that he needed to believe it. That Mankind had been taken over by anti-Ron forces, eons ago, explained very nicely why he was not being hailed as the Great Man, the Ultimate Guru and World Teacher.

The need for an explanation became more intense after the debacle in southern Africa in 1966, and thus we have Xenu and Incident 2 added to the already existing R6 bank implants, and other "whole track" implants, the first of which appeared when Hubbard was in the emotional upheaval of his rejection by (soon to be erased) 2nd wife Sara Northrup in 1951 and 1952.

No matter, by the time it filtered down to Scientologists, it had become a profound spiritual and scientific "fact."

And then there were the e-meters to confirm it as being true. E-meters are very important to the OT levels. And it appears that Hubbard had, himself, become an e-meter junkie at some point. Poetic justice, I guess.


__________​


The OT levels are loaded with sneaky "suggestion" (as in hypnotic suggestion). Scientologists don't see (and often don't remember) it as that, but as "helpful" instructions and "guidance."


__________​


Here's a sampling of the OT level known as OT 2, plus a smattering of introductory material by Hubbard. OT 2 consists of many pages of (already discovered, told to the person in detail) "whole track" implants:

"The first (earliest) bit of the bank is not an item but a light. It appears to the left front of the face, some distance away (Look ahead and to the left a bit and you'll spot it.)

"It is the source of unconsciousness and produces it when contacted. There is a light before each run...

"When you spot a light or object or combination of objects, you should get a read on the needle.

"You repeat verbal items aloud...

"The objects - hollow and solid...

"The objects appear about an arms length away...

"They move...

"Explosion...

"Never proceed past a non-reading item. To do so can be very deadly..."

....

"Many persons experience unreality at the start of [implant] GPM running; this leaves when you see the meter reads."

....

"They are implant incidents...

"Trillion, 20,095.

"Hot Cold.

"This is a pole with a split in it. The back split is hot, the front is cold. Two temperatures. Duration is 1 [and] 1/8th seconds...

"Dance Mob.

"Trillions, 18,992.

"This duration is 7/8 of a second. There is a pole that pulls one in. One is caught in the pole."


And a little more:

"230 trillions.

"This seeks to install...

"Implanter X... Target X,"
etc. [Shows diagram of implant], etc.


A typical reaction to running these materials is amazement at having contacted previously inaccessible incidents from ages ago, and delight at having expected (and hoped for) e-meter responses.

Those without the expected e-meter responses usually respond with dread and upset at their failure.

Their "cases" must be reviewed, and actions taken to "set" them "up" them for the "level."

It's an impressive P.T. Barnumesque ride.

OT3Interference.jpg



__________​


IMO, what are sometimes called the "Implantology" levels of Scientology are not primarily about "dichotomies," or about "exorcism," etc. These "levels" are primarily about the person being told the contents of his own mind, or the contents of his own space, being told the past, and even being "given" the future: "Your next endless trillions of years," etc.

Best wishes for those, who have done these levels, on the task of separating the "actual patterns of living," and the truths - contacted while doing them - from the mental-manipulation and mental-hooks that were inserted at the same time.

Note: Hubbardian hook removal is easier for some than for others. Once hooks are removed, any actual benefit obtained, or skills developed - from addressing "dichotomies," performing (seeming) exorcism, etc. etc. - usually remain, or may even be enhanced.

That there are, sometimes, "benefits obtained" and/or "skills developed" is perhaps the hardest part to explain, and it's something that can make people, years after they've left Scientology, when asked about these levels, sometimes sound like they're recommending these levels when, if asked if they'd recommend another do them, they'd say, "Absolutely not!"

It was a bad trade off. What little the person got from it - No one became an "OT" which was the stated objective - was not worth the accompanying "mind f__k."

Of course, there are some who dearly love the (mental) hooks (after all, they're "LRH" mental hooks) and do recommend the OT levels, but these usually deny that the hooks exist, either because they sell the stuff, or because the hooks have become a part of what they are.

For those interested, there are other methods which address "dichotomies," "influences in spaces," etc., etc. - methods that are "hook-free."

And, no, I'm not recommending any substitutes for these levels. That's for each person to explore and decide. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlTpVvMv9BE
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
Everybody laughs at the Xenu story as purported history, of course. But what about the story just as a story? Hubbard was a professional science fiction writer, at least before he took up full-time cult leading, and he did make enough at it to survive. He wasn't a great writer, but he was okay, for his time, I guess. Where does the Xenu story fit in his oeuvre? How does it stack up against his other stuff?

First off: when did he write it? I understand he wrote it as Revolt in the Stars in 1977. Did OT3 as Scientology scripture come before this, or after?

Did Hubbard himself think of his Xenu tale as his finest production? Or was it schlock even by the pulp standards he presumably held? I wonder, because if he had a special fondness for it, then that might explain why he wanted to believe that it was some kind of remembered history, or something — a revelation or discovery, and not just another yarn like all the rest he spun.
 

AngeloV

Gold Meritorious Patron
I am not OT and have never audited any OT level.

But I have a thought experiment for you.

Let's say a newly minted "communication course" graduate was shown the OT II materials? (Snippets posted above by Veda). Suppose they were told that this is what they will be auditing after they have become clear. My guess is that for every one that says "Cool! I want that" that 100 would either flee or ROTFL.

Honestly, the only reason scio's don't laugh their asses off is because they have been slowly brainwashed into believing that hubbard was totally telling the truth and that the implant/space opera/history of man stories are all accurate accounts of the last trillions of years.

I have explained some of the OT materials to family members and friends and have only gotten laughter and "are you fucking kidding me?" responses. This is why the church tries so hard to keep them hidden because only the brainwashed would put any value into auditing that completely fabricated stuff.

Suppose the author of the "Hunger Games" turned that story into an OT level....

Thetan dumped into an arena. Fear.

Thetan runs....fire and eruptions all around. Trillions 23.49994.

Fighting to live.

Sky opens....gifts fall.

Chased by animals with human faces...gets eaten alive.

Never proceed past a non-reading item. To do so can be very deadly....

LOL
 

Gadfly

Crusader
First off: when did he write it? I understand he wrote it as Revolt in the Stars in 1977. Did OT3 as Scientology scripture come before this, or after?

Ron released the OT III story on RJ 67, back in about 1967. I don't know the exact date, but it was about 10 years before Revolt in the Stars.
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
Everybody laughs at the Xenu story as purported history, of course. But what about the story just as a story? Hubbard was a professional science fiction writer, at least before he took up full-time cult leading, and he did make enough at it to survive. He wasn't a great writer, but he was okay, for his time, I guess. Where does the Xenu story fit in his oeuvre? How does it stack up against his other stuff?

First off: when did he write it? I understand he wrote it as Revolt in the Stars in 1977. Did OT3 as Scientology scripture come before this, or after?

Did Hubbard himself think of his Xenu tale as his finest production? Or was it schlock even by the pulp standards he presumably held? I wonder, because if he had a special fondness for it, then that might explain why he wanted to believe that it was some kind of remembered history, or something — a revelation or discovery, and not just another yarn like all the rest he spun.

Here's my take on Ron's writing.

Authors have various strengths and weaknesses...for instance Stephen King is a master at characterization. Hubbard was a master at action and fast-paced page burning reading fun. His stories are banal in the story line. His characters were unreal except the devious cunning type in which Ron poured himself into that role so they took on life - Sultan Gris, Terl, etc. The men are bare chested, cleft chinned rugged types and the women all have deep cleavages - classic pulp fiction stuff.

So, even if the Xenu story is weak it doesn't matter because Ron's stories are usually weak. Battlefield Earth is about the weakest SF "classic" I've ever had the misfortune to read. Compare that story with Dune or the Foundation series, for instance. However, if you want a page burning romp of action then it's excellent. It's entirely predictable but so are cliff hangers. The minute you read "Johnny Goodboy Tyler" you know this guy is going to be a Rambo character who can run through claymores unscathed.

The Xenu story can be a total flop for its own sake and the story would only be worth the read if you liked fast paced action which was Hubbard's forte. His SF is not classic, it's dull and flat, however the action is excellent, like an Indiana Jones movie where the story is more or less "there" for the action to take place in.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
What level are you?

OT3

Do you consider it worth anything?

Yes

Do you regret investing in it?

No. One point I did OT 2&3 in the FZ. Total cost with solo course approx £1500

Is it a sore spot that you see other Exes belittling, badgering, degrading and outright claiming Scamology to it?

No. people have the right to discuss their experiences. Those who
have not done these levels have little of worth to comment.

Do you feel that any of the OT levels are worth anything?

Yes.



Do you feel that the Church is just MU'ed in it's current state?

Far bigger problems than that. Ending abuse is first priority.

Would you return if DM was Declared?

no
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Gadfly
I got quite a bit out of it, because I put a great deal into it (including my own imagination and delusions). There IS something to Scientology, and I just don't think that anyone has quite correctly yet put their finger on what combination of things that is. And, some of that is not necessarily "good" (even though it might feel good at times)...

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by ChurchOfCylontology
But I think your one sentence of "I put a great deal into it (including my own imagination and delusions)" speaks more to the benefits than anything else I've read in my many years reading the subject. It says a lot, and you probably didn't realize that you actually had your finger on that exact combination of things that make it so beneficial.

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Gadfly
I think the answer lies somewhere along the lines of what I just tried to describe.


Superb train of thought going on here. :yes:

Might be missed by a lot of people on ESMB because this doesn't seem to be an overly "hot" thread, which is a shame. For me, Gadfly, your two long posts on this thread have congealed and put words to how I've been thinking about the bridge and what I experienced. And I've done a lot of it with benefit and, for me, not a lot of downside. I did it when it was a lot, lot cheaper and missed out on the whole SO experience (which is arguably the most harmful and damaging aspect of "the tech") and all the horrible ethics and mauling about.

At the end (about 20 years ago), I ended up in a good personal place, but have subsequently moved on to other spiritual interests and paths for solace and purpose in life when I need that.

Bottom line, your two long posts, Gadfly, have really zeroed in on something important. Just brilliant. The "answer" lies in this this direction. :yes:

I'd like to write up some parallel ideas and insights once I have more time . . . and let things percolate a bit.

In the meantime, thanks much Gadfly and CofC. :thumbsup:
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Might be missed by a lot of people on ESMB because this doesn't seem to be an overly "hot" thread, which is a shame. For me, Gadfly, your two long posts on this thread have congealed and put words to how I've been thinking about the bridge and what I experienced. And I've done a lot of it with benefit and, for me, not a lot of downside. I did it when it was a lot, lot cheaper and missed out on the whole SO experience (which is arguably the most harmful and damaging aspect of "the tech") and all the horrible ethics and mauling about.

At the end (about 20 years ago), I ended up in a good personal place, but have subsequently moved on to other spiritual interests and paths for solace and purpose in life when I need that.

Bottom line, your two long posts, Gadfly, have really zeroed in on something important. Just brilliant. The "answer" lies in this this direction. :yes:

I'd like to write up some parallel ideas and insights once I have more time . . . and let things percolate a bit.

In the meantime, thanks much Gadfly and CofC. :thumbsup:

I would love to read what you have to say! :thumbsup:

I suspect the reason that the thread receives little interest is because what I describe is not "real" to most people. To be able to notice this thread of the "creative imagination" that runs through all of these related subjects, one would have to had quite a bit of familiarity with these subjects. And, more so, one who have had to have "tried them out", a least a bit, so that he or she had an actual direct personal experience with such things. It is impossible to understand what I mean by "ability to utilize the imagination" unless one has actually experimented along such lines. Book learning and study alone are quite insufficient in this arena. "Thinking about it" will never replace DOING IT.

For example, one could read books about, view diagrams about and read personal stories about "how to cut the grass", but until one gets out there and does it, and does it awhile, trying different types of machinery and techniques, the person will not really have any clue about it. This is true for a great many things.

I want to give a few examples to bring some mass and reality to this subject. Here is a simple drill that anyone can do. Think of it as a per-Kindergarten drill, like when a youngster fits various shapes blocks into the appropriate shaped hole.

1. Sit in a comfortable location where you won't be disturbed. Relax. Meditate for a few minutes, or do whatever you usually do to empty and quiet your inner space (mind).

2. Picture a triangle. Notice the shape. Is it an equilateral triangle? If not, make it be one (where the sides are equal). Keep it as an equilateral triangle for as long as you can. Every time it disappears, put it back just as it was. If you can't have it be equilateral, have it be whatever is easiest, and put it back there in the same general location and position as it was before.

3. Is the triangle outlined or filled in? Make it be one or the other. Now, notice that you are creating the image in your own mental space, and are at the same time looking at the created image. Generally, if you do this, it will vanish. Then put it back and look at it. Again, notice that you are both the creator and observer of the creation. Notice that this exists in your inner space.

Now, this drill can have all sorts of additions. Most people have NEVER done any sort of drilling EVER in their lives. Besides being fun, it has incredible side-effects in terms of health and well-being. This is an aspect of the human mind that generally remains entirely dormant for most people. It need not. Such drills are simple beginning drills in occult science.

4. Now, create a triangle that is equilateral, and red. Notice how big it is. Is it small or large? If it is large, make it smaller. If it is small, make it larger. Now, turn it green. Now, turn it blue. Now, turn it white. Now, turn it black.

Position it to the left, to the right, up high, down low. Position it behind you, to the left behind you, to the right behind you, up high behind you, down low behind you. Do all the earlier steps with the image behind you, or to your left, or to your right.

What one is doing is getting started at being able to CREATE INNER SPACE, and place things in this created space. The possibilities are endless.

One would do this for a number of weeks or months, or as long as necessary until one could do it quickly and easily, and be able to maintain the created image without change.

Now, where is Hubbard's notion of "for anything to persist it must contain a lie"? Well, first Hubbard does say in the PDC tapes that THAT consideration is ONLY unique to THIS universe. It is not essential to every possible universe. But also, there is another way to look at it. In fact, when you are there with just your calm and peaceful mind, there is NOTHING there. It is all potential, with no substance. When you create an image and then view it, it is both real, as you can and do experience it, but also it is a sort of "lie", in that it is a "mocked up" thing that has no other basis other than that YOU CREATED IT. It has no existence all on its own. It doesn't and can't exist separate from you. The observer and the observed are wed in a very fascinating alchemical marriage. It is real. And, it is entirely make-believe.

In Vedic terms, all reality is exactly just like that. It is all a made-up illusion, that one perceives as real. The only difference is that you have so separated yourself from the author and actual authorship of the objective reality that you no longer recognize any of it as a product of creative imagination.

Now, for most humans the line between objective reality and subjective reality is firm, deep and wide. Few cross between the two (consciously at least). But, for those who spend more than a little time developing the various powers and skills of the imagination this line becomes less deep, less defined, and can be crossed. The objective and the subjective begin to merge and meld together.

Anyway, there are oodles of drills that can be done to improve these imaginative skills. I read about certain Hindu monks who had gotten so good at this, that they could and did create entire cities, in their minds, with incredible detail and color, and also, that they could "bring" others into it, and that these others would experience it entirely "as real".

Until one gets rather good at such things you will never understand the nature of reality and consciousness. You will just accept and believe stories and reports form others. These abilities have nothing to do with belief in concepts. You can easily picture things in your mind, and this is what is built up and improved upon.

This has had only to do with the visual aspect. You can also develop sound. You can learn to "hear" a violin, or an oboe, or a flute. There are NO limits to how deeply you can delve into such things. You can develop any of Hubbard's so-called 51 perceptics (or however many he said there were).

This takes DRILLING, and no sort of thinking about it can replace the drilling. It is like exercising muscles. Thinking about lifting weights will NOT have the same effect as actually doing it. There are various aspects of any mind that can be practiced, drilled and improved. I really don't know of any place where one could go to do such things. Sometimes I think I should set it all out, because it seems pretty clear and obvious to me. But then, SHIT, I would have to myself DO all of the drills! :ohmy:

But, you will never have ANY clue about any of this unless you begin serious study and practice of these basic skills. For most people, such skills haven't even yet been awoken, much less begun to be honed and improved. The development of such skills have NOTHING to do with Scientology, other than Hubbard tricked his followers into using certain low-level aspects of the creative imagination through the acceptance of the belief system and in auditing.

This can be taken as far as one wants. It takes patience, persistence and dedicated diligence, as does any worthwhile venture.
 
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WildKat

Gold Meritorious Patron
1. I completed New OTV
2. Absolutely worthless.
3. Boy do I regret tossing my money away on it. Hardly an investment!!
4. I am one of those who belittle, badger, degrade and claim it is a scam.
5. No; not worth a "hill of beans".
6. I think the "church" is fraudulent in its claims and corrupt in its activities.
7. Never in a billion years.

LTG

My answers are the same as above, except 1. = OT III
Saved me a bunch of typing, thanks!
I would only add that I do not think my entire Scn history was wasted. I remember in the early days reading basic materials and thinking "this stuff is just common sense".

The OT levels, however, I believe to be a serious mind-fuck. I would tell anyone I cared about "don't go there".

I guess one good thing I got out of my experience was the ability to recognize a cult!

I would also say that trying to separate out the "helpful stuff" from the BS harmful stuff could take a lifetime, and is not worth it.
 
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