OTs on Objectives

Arthur Dent

Silver Meritorious Patron
Lol, Zinj, we've had this conversation many times. I understand that you think it is about hypnosis but that doesn't hold water when it comes to explaining some of the aspects of all Objective Processes.

I don't continue to mention this out of any desire to promote these processes, I simply consider it a mistake to blithely dismiss this stuff in such a manner. Look over some of the processes in Creation Of Human Ability for examples of processes that obviously have little to do with controlling/directing a person's attention or creating delusion. "Find the Hidden Object" (or whatever it's called) is one such example.

There is quite a bit more to it than some of the simplistic explanations would have us believe (desirable as those simple explanations may be to those seeking simple answers to complex questions).

I'm sure there are others here who have had what they consider to be quite positive experiences with Objective Processes, they're probably just loathe to mention it. I prefer truth.


From a "tech" standpoint, I could see where this could be an honest attempt. Before I had gone back on staff and started auditing, I used to read a lot of the tech. One of the things that I ran into, was per the things I was reading, objectives seemed to be getting quickied and I used to get into it a touch with the C/S over this. Stats again just kill things in all directions. An Objectives completion is considered an auditing completion and a major statistic. Plus, I think a lot of PCs were happy to be done with the things. Also, as an auditor, running Op Pro by Dup was one of the worst things in the universe. Fuck--they comped objectives, you got back into "the chair". I don't think that folks were purposely quickieing (how the !#[email protected] do you spell THAT), but they were never run to the extent that I saw in the HCOBs. Throw in the fact that a lot of these were done in co-audits where that counted as a course comp AND an auditing comp...and all folks are asking these poor students if they were going to comp this week.....well, yeah. Per the tech, a lot of folks were unflat.

Now, that being said, I'm just going to throw in my little opinion fwiw. I do think the objectives, run to full EP do bring a person into "present time". I really don't know that it is a good thing, in the way it is done or in its result. I have read similar occurrences in POW situations. People suddenly feeling they were completely aware, and there after hours of hard labor or repetivie actions to break them. So, Objectives bring you totally "there" breaking past connections. In Dianetics this is promoted...as in A=A=A and it's all bad. But...your past connections are broken. Good perhaps for some habits..but, for critical reasoning and comparisons? I'm not so sure. More readings on neural plasticity and all sorts of things have really made me think that Objectives seriously break the neural pathways that have been built up. And so, your past comparisons, thoughts, experiences are no longer wired into you. So, then, after that....Scientology gets laid down. Objectives lead you wide-open to be re-wired on the tech. Pretty easy to disconnect, ignore other advice, when you are no longer fully connected to them. I'm not totally anti-spiritual, but I think brain stuff definitely enters into the factor, especially in Scientology. I wonder if one reason he argued against the brain so much was because it was being manipulated. I'm probably not explaining this clearly, but I be tired:D and the hard-drive where I first started working this out and writing about it is off lying in a box somewhere, praying for its own resurrection.


I agree with Panda. I have had much experience running these and found most pc's don't quite get it without a fair amount of educating them on it. They most certainly do bring a person to present time. They do increase ones ability to accomplish things and control their environment. I believe, for that reason, that I can't just throw the concept in the junk heap however loathe I may be to validate any tech being as pissed off as I personally am about all this. I have seen many do better from them and I have had wins from them.

However, I must say that your critique, clamicide, is an intelligent perspective and the only bashing commentary on this that makes me think twice about it... and I think you explained it very clearly. Re-wiring was, indeed, the whole idea of the tech. As it was with training....after the Student Hat you can now study to create a new civilization as I believe was the wording. And, of course that's what we wanted. And on the yellow brick road, some of the bricks were real.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Yes, well, forcing anything on anyone is the crime of crimes . . . it's criminal.

Cardinal rule in successful, non-abusive processing is . . . is the client/PC interested in the process and want to do it?

If not, find something that he is interested in!

R

I've never heard of anyone who "did Scientology" and its "Grade Chart" who didn't eventually do Objectives - It was required.

I think Roger is talking about Roger-ology, not Scientology. :)
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Nobody's saying that any Scientology process is *only* hypnotism. All I'm saying is that *most* Scientology processes include a hypnotic element, 'Objectives' being notable there. Scientology processes also include *other* covert forms of manipulation, not the least of which are operant conditioning and social control. And, yes, *other* training also includes some of these elements and some other training may possibly be as maliciously manipulative as Scientology processes.

But, 'Scientology is Anti-Hypnotism' is a ludicrous statement that could only be uttered in the complete absence of information on hypnotism. Or, a completely false understanding of it, such as that promoted by L. Ron Hubbard for transparently insidious purposes.

Zinj
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
I've never heard of anyone who "did Scientology" and its "Grade Chart" who didn't eventually do Objectives - It was required.

I think Roger is talking about Roger-ology, not Scientology. :)

In my experience, as well as knowing others, you are correct.
Not only that, but... objectives are done very early on "The Bridge".
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Having reviewed a bunch of these so-called Objectives, I'm going to have to agree with those who view the process as an exercise in conditioning the subject to obey. It reminds me of the "basic" section of a new army recruit's training wherein the "grunts" are "drilled" for hour after hour in unison with other recruits. Endless, apparently pointless marching about and swinging weapons. Upon questioning my Sergeant about this sort of nonsense he explained it thus:

"If we are out in the field and I tell you to duck, I don't want you making suggestions as to what else might be another option or to discuss it with your mates - I want to you fucking well duck. And don't think its cos I care about you, I don't, I hate you, I just want to keep as many rifles active as possible."

Makes sense in a combat/danger situation but doesn't exactly encourage freedom and learning within wider society.


As far as Scientology goes, the above post is total crap. However as far as what currently goes on in the CofS it is probably true.

Objectives were NEVER intended to "bring the preclear under control". Never. They were to "bring the preclear's bank under control." For the preclear himself or herself - it was to bring thm into present time.

Done properly, as per original instructions fom LRH himself - this is what is easily and fully attainable with Objectives processes. And there are always plenty more abilities gained than just that.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Objectives were NEVER intended to "bring the preclear under control". Never. They were to "bring the preclear's bank under control." For the preclear himself or herself - it was to bring thm into present time.

Trouble is - the "bank" only exists in LRH science fiction.
 
As far as Scientology goes, the above post is total crap. However as far as what currently goes on in the CofS it is probably true.

Objectives were NEVER intended to "bring the preclear under control". Never. They were to "bring the preclear's bank under control." For the preclear himself or herself - it was to bring thm into present time.

Done properly, as per original instructions fom LRH himself - this is what is easily and fully attainable with Objectives processes. And there are always plenty more abilities gained than just that.

The *bank* being what? An idea installed by Ron, which sets the "pc" up with an internal enemy; an enemy which Ron claims only he can uninstall, via his "tech" used by "auditor"s.
So it IS Ron controlling the pc with his "tech". And as others have said, the "objectives" have as part of the purpose, training the pc to follow Rons controls obediently.
I seem to remember that this is actually stated in objectives training HCOBs (HQS etc). It was not stated as training the *bank* to follow commands, it was stated as training the *pc* to follow commands. It has been mentioned and discussed on ESMB before.
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
As far as Scientology goes, the above post is total crap. However as far as what currently goes on in the CofS it is probably true.

Objectives were NEVER intended to "bring the preclear under control". Never. They were to "bring the preclear's bank under control." For the preclear himself or herself - it was to bring thm into present time.

Done properly, as per original instructions fom LRH himself - this is what is easily and fully attainable with Objectives processes. And there are always plenty more abilities gained than just that.

Yes, that is what the HCOBs say/claim but is it the truth?

As far as "abilities gained", I'd like to see extensive (non-SCN), WOG invented, tests that prove this to be true.
 

Veda

Sponsor
There was never a time in Scientology when Hubbard wasn't lying to Scientologists in one way or another. If Scientologists were so "un-hypnotized" why didn't they catch on?
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Yes, that is what the HCOBs say/claim but is it the truth? As far as "abilities gained", I'd like to see extensive (non-SCN), WOG invented, tests that prove this to be true.

That is impossible.

Since WOGS can not make an OT, they are certainly not able to test an OT.

That is why only Scientology can test its own OTs.

What utter folly to even think of a lowly mest-being wog attempting to test a 12-mile-high Operating Thetan!

MEST BEING
Excuse me sir, would you be kind enough to
demonstrate your supernatural powers?

OT
Certainly not! For powerful as they are, they
might well vanquish your frail carbon oxygen meat machine!

MEST BEING
Oh, I am truly sorry, sir, to have disturbed you. I will
be sure to report to the rest of the Wogs how kind you
were not to endanger my safety with the utter
foolishness I suggested. It shan't happen again, sir.

 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
That is impossible.

Since WOGS can not make an OT, they are certainly not able to test an OT.

That is why only Scientology can test its own OTs.

What utter folly to even think of a lowly mest-being wog attempting to test a 12-mile-high Operating Thetan!

MEST BEING
Excuse me sir, would you be kind enough to
demonstrate your supernatural powers?

OT
Certainly not! For powerful as they are, they
might well vanquish your frail carbon oxygen meat machine!

MEST BEING
Oh, I am truly sorry, sir, to have disturbed you. I will
be sure to report to the rest of the Wogs how kind you
were not to endanger my safety with the utter
foolishness I suggested. It shan't happen again, sir.
[/CENTER]

What I meant was... SCN auditors make an OT THEN independent WOGs test the results. (BTW, a preliminary test was already done, many years ago, by WOGs concerning Dianetics engram memory recovery.)
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Trouble is - the "bank" only exists in LRH science fiction.

You mean...I was investing all that money in Science Fiction? Dammm! lol

If this was treated as a normal business transaction (which it in fact was!) Hubbard and his organizations would have been rapidly closed down by the SEC for securities fraud with the typical mandated repayment to investors, treble damages and jail terms with the stipulation that "mankind's greatest friend" is never allowed to sell any "futures" again.

This entire con game would have been blasted out of the water in the early 1950's when the first investors realized that they not only did not attain Clear but that the spiritual goldmine that Hubbard was madly selling shares in did not even exist.

Under the cover of "religion" Ron the Con committed decades of horrendous financial crimes.

And bragged about it as though he was saving people from evil!

Now that is an insane human being.

Sorry, "Indie Scientologists" you got your freakin' implant not from Sixth Invaders or Xenu....but from the freakin' dude who made up all that stuff about implants. Your wakeup alarm has already sounded. You've overslept, motherf*ckers, wake up! (ps:it ain't religious intolerance if it ain't religion)

Objectives "bringing beings up to present time", indeed! How long are people going to continue this pitiful charade?
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
What I meant was... SCN auditors make an OT THEN independent WOGs test the results. (BTW, a preliminary test was already done, many years ago, by WOGs concerning Dianetics engram memory recovery.)

I know. Agreeing wicha! :D

Sorry, I suffer from CHS (compulsive hoax syndrome).
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
What's all this about being in 'present time' anyways?

As far as I'm concerned I'm in 'present time' willy nilly.. I never did accomplish timetravel, either forwards or backwards... Ok.. Forwards, being in 'presnt time' as time rolls on.. But never faster than that.

I can recall times past.. From my perk here in 'present time'.. My memory works like that..

:yes:
 

RogerB

Crusader
Nobody's saying that any Scientology process is *only* hypnotism. All I'm saying is that *most* Scientology processes include a hypnotic element, 'Objectives' being notable there. Scientology processes also include *other* covert forms of manipulation, not the least of which are operant conditioning and social control. And, yes, *other* training also includes some of these elements and some other training may possibly be as maliciously manipulative as Scientology processes.

But, 'Scientology is Anti-Hypnotism' is a ludicrous statement that could only be uttered in the complete absence of information on hypnotism. Or, a completely false understanding of it, such as that promoted by L. Ron Hubbard for transparently insidious purposes.

Zinj

Zin,

I spent 3 years researching with hypnosis and "applied psychology" on their application to athletic performance . . . . this prior to my getting into Scn.

This research with the guy who eventually became the Oz Olympic swim coach, Forbes Carlisle, . . . he was on faculty at Sydney University.

I won my Oz Gold medal early in 1954, got into Scn late in 1957. Believe me, I am familiar with hypnosis . . . in fact the work we did on this hit the Sydney newspapers of the day.

I don't comment on things I have not actually done or experienced.

Rog
 

nw2394

Silver Meritorious Patron
In actuality, the use of these processes is in fact the reverse of hypnosis . . . if anything they un-hypnotise the person. Though it is equally true some folks do have to go through some dopiness and "unconsciousness" to get their attention fully and knowing under their control on present time.

RogerB

The truth is that a good many people have either not had objectives or only had a few hours of it. Thus they are in (or see their chums in) that dopiness and think that objectives are hypnotism.

While I am no defender of the CoS, a lot of folks think they know about "the tech" based on a crummy rendition of it - or on the sales pitch that the Church churns out.

Nick
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Or, maybe all you who did complete your 'objectives' (multiple times) carry a post-hypnotic command to say 'Scientology is not hypnotism! Scientology is *anti-hypnotism*!!

Or maybe you have something that will make you chicken dance if I hum the theme to Gunsmoke

You never know.

Zinj
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
They do not work without a kind of 'charm'. If the right attitude and session elements are there you have magic. If not, you have so so results. Objectives are done on lower levels usually by lower levels auditors. But the three times I was personally aware of these being run by OTs on others, it seems they were directly going after a certain part of the case, always checking and rechecking until the mocked up circuits and machinery goes. Circuits and machinery are also dismantled big time on the Ls. The person doesn't even know until later that they are GONE sometimes. Thats if the Ls were done right. In 1980 before the shit hit the fan I used to veg out in the HGC lounges for weeks on end. There was a lot of shared chat in those lounges. Many a person who'd had money on account now had triple that when the prices went down again. They were coming in from Australia, Venezuela, NY, Durban, Alaska .. Everyone wanted the previously unaffordable Ls. There were a lot of old OTs coming in to do the Purif and objectives which were part of the package. These were sometimes a prerequisite for the Ls if one had been off lines for years. Objectives were viewed differently and with less dismay and ho hum their second time around for these guys.
 
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