Our 'experience' in Scn - Different for each of us!

[Carmel]

<snip>
I think the "questioning" that people do is a healthy thing though. Sometimes people need to question very thoroughly to find out exactly what was going on, because they were prevented from thinking their own thoughts "inside". That may involve disbelief in what someone else says they experienced. The questioner may have been forced to do things against there own wishes and may not understand that another EX was in different circumstances. And people sometimes find that their own perceptions about their own experiences changes too. Leaving them with the conclusion that they were unable to see the truth of their own experience on some issue.

None of this is to argue with anything in the OP. I'm saying that people may question things because they are now wanting to question question and question some more because thats what they did not do in the cult.
<snip>

Hey DB, I get what you're saying, and I agree that questioning is a 'healthy' and vital thing to do. There is no argument there at all.

What I dislike and disagree with big time, is when people tell another or indicate to another that they are at a certain stage, and as time goes by they will see things differently AND in a particular light. You can get people to 'look' without telling them what to think, and it's a far better tactic, if ya wanna help, IMO (especially with 'ANZO cases' ).

The concept that everyone was "brainwashed" while in, is a false one IMO (although I agree that many were). Yes, I believe we were all affected to some degree, but those affects are very diverse, and the assumption that particular ones are common to all, is just BS IMO.

 

[Carmel]

You mean knowing what I know now?

I would go straight to Bent Corydon and say point blank:

Well that's a given! But I think that you know that's not what I mean't. Knowing what we know now, none of us would there, and we're not!

Given what you know now though, would you have played it differently while in?

 

[Carmel]

<snip>
I would end with telling them that they have a natural "BS indicator" and they need to listen to it; and never ever give their determinism over to someone else. That they need to use that BS indicator in life, not just Scn.
snip>

That'd be good advice TL, for everyone, including scios.

 

[programmer_guy]

Well that's a given! But I think that you know that's not what I mean't. Knowing what we know now, none of us would there, and we're not!

Given what you know now though, would you have played it differently while in?

I am not sure what you mean.

While I was "in" I would never have said that to Bent.
If I "went back" I would say what I posted to him.
I would have been more "up front" about it. That is how I would have played it differently.

 

[Carmel]

I am not sure what you mean.

While I was "in" I would never have said that to Bent.
If I "went back" I would say what I posted to him.
I would have been more "up front" about it. That is how I would have played it differently.

Hey, if I knew what I know now, I would have resigned and walked too, way way earlier than what I did - no two ways about it. However, given some hyperthetical scenario, where for whatever reason I was blinded to the real scene about the CofS and LRH, still had a purpose to "fix it up in there and make it what it could be", then given what I know now about where I erred in my endeavours, I would have 'played it' differently (as described in an earlier post).

That's what I was asking you. If you had that scenario, would you have played it the same, or differently? Do you understand what I mean now, or am I still not making it clear?

Silly to think of that scenario maybe, because it would never be. I often think about my time at high school. "If only I said this" or "If only I did that", "If only I knew that Sister Irene was having sex with Sister Bede at the time that she was putting all that crap on me" etc, etc. Somehow looking back at what ya didn't know, and/or what ya didn't do that you should have or could have done (given the scenario at the time), helps.

I believe that if I was smarter when I was still 'in', and knew what I know now, that I wouldn't have gone the adverse affect of so much, like I did. That counts for something, in my world, and for me it's helped in regard to letting a lot go.

 

[programmer_guy]

Carmel,

You mean if I went back as a true-blue Scientologist what would I have done differently? (I'm still trying to understand you... please bear with me. I will eventually understand you.)

I would have demanded decent pay so that I wouldn't live in poverty. (I thought that I made that clear.) :confused2:


Are you takling about GAT or other stuff? (That's after my time.)

 

[Carmel]

Carmel,

You mean if I went back as a true-blue Scientologist what would I have done differently? (I'm still trying to understand you... please bear with me. I will eventually understand you.)

I would have demanded decent pay so that I wouldn't live in poverty. (I thought that I made that clear.) :confused2:


Are you takling about GAT or other stuff? (That's before my time.)

Oh for goodness sake, it's me that has a problem with expressing what I mean, with words! I don't need to bear with you, it's more than likely you that's bearing with me on this one!

I don't know how to explain what I mean, except to add, that despite the fucked agenda within the CofS, and despite the crap that was run on staff/crew in the CofS, and despite the fact that it was a "no win" situation, I reckon that if I played my cards differently while 'in', that I would have had an easier time of it. I was just curious as to whether you or anyone else thinks the same on that score.

 

[Axiom142]

One of the things that really struck me when I spoke to all the guys that I met at your place and subsequently, was how much we had in common. Yes, we had done different things, made differing degrees of ‘progress’, known a different set of people, had different experiences and were separated by half the globe, but there was so much in common. If you looked at what we wanted to achieve in Scientology, what we believed, the way we talked and acted and finally how much we had been disappointed, there was so much that was very familiar to me. The words and music are different, but the song is essentially the same.

Thank you for telling us this latest chapter of your story Carmel, I feel that I understand you even better now.

Axiom142

 

[Royal Prince Xenu]

Carmel your OP is very accurate, and precisely as you say, if I went through that same list, many of my answers would differ, but I certainly identify with "playing all the cards on the table" getting me into more trouble than it was worth.

However, with another employer, that exact same approach kept me employed for 7 years with the same boss. I could say "Mark, I need to talk." "OK, my office in 5 mins." Other times I would respond, "No, now." and he knew now meant NOW. When the office folded, and I realized that the part-time employment I would be offered would not be economically feasible, I cried when I handed in my resignation.

Back in 2001(?) I stayed at his house for a week running his business while he went on holiday, and I got seriously sick--thank God for that 24-hour Chemist. After he returned, I still had to hang around because I was in no fit state to drive home (minimum 9 hours away), and I was in a very depressed and negative mood.

I don't know what my narky comment was, but Mark suddenly turned on me and asked "Don't you have anything positive to say?"

INSERT COMM LAG HERE.

About two weeks later, when I was back home, I rang him and answered the question: "Yes, I do have something positive to say. You've been a true friend." After all, is there anyone on this board who would trust me with the house keys, the car keys (even though I was using my own car), and a bunch of blank pre-signed cheques?

Do other people who worked for the original company still stay in touch? No.

Do they think differently of their experiences? Obviously yes.

The time machine question: No, I would not repeat my experience with Scientology. Yes, I learned some valuable things, but overall I think it left me more f'd in the head than before I got involved.

I said elsewhere that all of us "exes" will forever carry the stench of Green on White, that's what we have in common. What each of us does with it is what makes us different.

 

[scooter]

This is a most telling statement. Why can't you just be up front and honest about it? Just tell them up front what you think. Or is this a no-no in our modern society?

Mate, you can be open and honest and that's OK and maybe it'll all come out fine.

What I was saying is I would handle the group with that gambit then handle anyone who still wanted to try the cult on an individual basis, after they had done some research on it.

One-on-one is the only way really to handle someone going down the path to self-destruction. If you arm someone with data and they still insist on killing themselves then you really need to have a serious private chat with them. Trying to do it in a group setiing IMO is doomed to failure.

 

[Neo]

This much is true. But still, its interesting that we all ended up leaving!

Neo

 

[HolyCow]

Honesty vs Survival

Hi Carmen. Your post struck a chord with me, something I'm thinking about after reading the boards. I too was naive and honest. I was like that before Scn. I've since come to realize that perhaps I wasn't completely honest with myself, otherwise I would have left much, much earlier than I did.

But being totally honest when surrounded by a pack of wolves was, in my hindsight opinion, foolish, when I did it alone. Today I realize I had swung to an opposite position, which in plain English, means I started to trust absolutely no one. Only recently have I begun to kind of saunter over to a middle ground.

But I've also realized that the tech I was dealing with was full of contradictions at any give time, so how could any sane person apply it? Just sayin' that it's great to be honest, but just get your butt over to some kind of safe place first! I absolutely understand what you're grappling with. Hope this helps.:shark:

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Thanks Fluffy, I know this, but at least I've got something off my chest that's been eating at me for a while now. People can take it or leave it, and I know they will. I feel better as a result of putting it out there, and it may assist a couple of others to (whether directly or indirectly), so all good I reckon.

You sure did and it was a damn good post!

 

[RogerB]

Nice, Carmel

Carmel,

Lovely post.

Nice to see good order being put in and certainties being restored

Rog

 

[Carmel]

One of the things that really struck me when I spoke to all the guys that I met at your place and subsequently, was how much we had in common. Yes, we had done different things, made differing degrees of ‘progress’, known a different set of people, had different experiences and were separated by half the globe, but there was so much in common. If you looked at what we wanted to achieve in Scientology, what we believed, the way we talked and acted and finally how much we had been disappointed, there was so much that was very familiar to me. The words and music are different, but the song is essentially the same.
<snip>
Axiom142

Yes Ax, of course we have much in common, and it is so good to 'mix' and be with others of like or similar mind, and with others who understand something as unique as experiences within the CofS. As I said in my op, there is a 'common theme' with us 'exes', but the things that 'stuck' or 'pegged us' or impinged on us, during our time in Scn, vary greatly from individual to individual.

Some of us had very similar circumstances, were subjected to the same sort of crap from management, and played our cards pretty well the same way. Yet, because we are all different individuals, what actually 'got' to us, the things that adversely impinged on us the most, and how we as individuals 'internally processed' it all...was sometimes vastly different. What we received was the same in a lot of cases. However, there is much diversity in regard to where our individual strengths and weaknesses were and how we dealt with what we received.

Yep, a lot of us have just so much in common, all the while being quite different as individuals, with much variation as far as personal "hang ups" go. So good that we get to be here together, and sometimes even get the treat of being with eachother in person (like we did at the 'bash'), to help sort it all out and to have a laugh - can't life be just so grand!

 

[Kookaburra]

That is a great question . . . especially since I have teenage kids and taught high school students; so I know them pretty well.

With teens you can't tell them NOT to do something (I don't need to elaborate do I?).

I would tell them that my involvement with Scientology started well, but that when it turned sour I had allowed myself to be blinded by my ego, and could no longer think for myself. I would tell them about the money I spent, and how I was talked into believing that it would come back to me 10fold because of my new abilities. I would tell them it ended up being very harmful, and that it resulted from a gradient of little agreements until I got lazy and just believed things without evaluating them.

I would tell them how gullible the ego is, if it's fed.

I would tell them that there are groups out there that prey on the "vision" of youth; who will take advantage of their enthusiasm and confidence and desire to change themselves and the world. I would give them a list of things to look for:

1. "love bombing" including flattery about how much better (smarter, bigger) they are than anyone else.

2. A group that warns you against something but yet does it themselves (many of the characteristics of an SP are modeled well by the CofS -- cut comm, negative comm, altering to worsen communication, wrong targets. . )

3. Encouraging you to go into debt, especially for something you aren't sure what the outcome will be.

4. Anything that cuts you off from your family, or that makes you feel superior to family and friends.


OH jeez . . . I thought this would be a short list and it just keeps on going. . . there's more, it's getting boring it's just a recap of what you read here every day . . . . .

I would tell them about the number of higher level Scientologists who realized it didn't work and left.

I would tell them to be careful about believing things just because you want them to be true.

I would end with telling them that they have a natural "BS indicator" and they need to listen to it; and never ever give their determinism over to someone else. That they need to use that BS indicator in life, not just Scn.

This question actually has me going; it would be interesting to put together a "cult awareness" program for teens. . . I probably would tweak that, but the basics are there.

-TL

Tiger Lily, this is a brilliant idea. Something like this is needed in schools around the world. I was lucky enough to get a few "think for thyself" lessons in school, but not everyone does. I have run into plenty of young people who think they should obey rules simply because they are the rules. Such an idea would be the end of that person in a situation like Scientology. It's dangerous enough just having someone like that running loose in the society. God knows what crazy "rule" they are obeying! One woman told me once that it was OK for someone to go into a village of unarmed people and shoot dead all 200 of them because he was the sheriff! She was quite miffed with me because I said it was still mass murder even if the sheriff did it.

Seriously, it is a project well worth doing, and one that ex Scinos of all people could do a brilliant job of putting it together.

 

[Tiger Lily]

cult education

Tiger Lily, this is a brilliant idea. Something like this is needed in schools around the world. I was lucky enough to get a few "think for thyself" lessons in school, but not everyone does. I have run into plenty of young people who think they should obey rules simply because they are the rules. Such an idea would be the end of that person in a situation like Scientology. It's dangerous enough just having someone like that running loose in the society. God knows what crazy "rule" they are obeying! One woman told me once that it was OK for someone to go into a village of unarmed people and shoot dead all 200 of them because he was the sheriff! She was quite miffed with me because I said it was still mass murder even if the sheriff did it.

Seriously, it is a project well worth doing, and one that ex Scinos of all people could do a brilliant job of putting it together.

Yes, it would be great. It was discussed recently on a different thread - can't remember which though. You would have to be very careful in public schools about specifics (freedom of religion laws being what they are), but you certainly could go through the general things to look for.

I know our school has yearly "community education" seminars on things like dugs/alchohol, and Internet security . . .don't know why this couldn't be done as well.

Yes, you are right that people sometimes fall into an "obedient" mode, and just trust that rules and leaders are always in their best interest. It's a tough line, because you can't have anarchy in a school, but you have to teach kids to evaluate for themselves.

I still marvel at how easily my naivete was taken advantage of by Scientology. Would love to get the tools out there to prevent it from happening to others.

-TL

 

[Kookaburra]

I really liked your OP, Carmel. I would answer most of those questions the same way, for the most part. Now to this question:

Given what you know now though, would you have played it differently while in?

The major thing I would have done differently would be to stick to my guns when it came to doing my tech training. I originally went into Scientology to be an auditor. I eventually did this but boy did i get sidetracked a gazillion times! I think I would have had a much smoother go of it had I just done that and ignored reges, recruiters, missionaires etc with their own agendas, all of which involved getting me to do something else other than becoming an auditor, or auditing once I did get trained. I even accepted a quilt trip that it was out ethics to do tech training as a public because all the staff also wanted to be auditors and deserved it more than I did, yet they were not doing their training. This cost me years of doing 'other stuff', and obviously cost lots of PCs the auditing they would have had.

As the tech of auditing is basicly the worthwhile part of Scientology, I think I would have accomplished a lot more in a much shorter period of time, had I done that training right off the bat. Another point to that is that the more trained you are the less of a target you are for the BS. Not 100% as Carmel found out, but certainly more than someone who joins the Sea Org at the age of 12, with a children's study course under their belt, for instance.

I suspect that I may not have stayed as long as I did had I done the above.

There were a few times that I was so fed up that I would have left permanently had it not been for that piece of data that this is the ONLY way out, that if you miss getting out of the trap now yada, yada, yada... Unfortunately every person in Scn that has not done the OT levels has that datum sitting there, UNINSPECTED. And I am sure that it holds many, many people in the most horrible situations because they don't want to 'lose their eternity', or spend it in some horrible black pit getting killed and killed and killed. Scientology's version of hellfire and brimstone if you don't get up the bridge. So knowing what I know now, that Scientology is not all that it is chalked up to be, I would have been out on several occasions.

In hindsight I should have loudly reported some more of the more severe outnesses that I observed. It probably would have gotton me thrown out, declared, decked or RPF'd but what the hell, I still should have done it. In all honesty, whether that would translate to would have done it, I can't be sure. Personal integrity vs personal survival....it's a rough one. I probably would pick personal survival, as most do if they are on staff or SO. It is those severe consequences for speaking out and the unwillingness of people to suffer those consequences that have made Scientology such a hell hole it is today. So I guess I'm guilty on that count.

 

[Kookaburra]

Yes, it would be great. It was discussed recently on a different thread - can't remember which though. You would have to be very careful in public schools about specifics (freedom of religion laws being what they are), but you certainly could go through the general things to look for.

I know our school has yearly "community education" seminars on things like dugs/alchohol, and Internet security . . .don't know why this couldn't be done as well.

Yes, you are right that people sometimes fall into an "obedient" mode, and just trust that rules and leaders are always in their best interest. It's a tough line, because you can't have anarchy in a school, but you have to teach kids to evaluate for themselves.

I still marvel at how easily my naivete was taken advantage of by Scientology. Would love to get the tools out there to prevent it from happening to others.

-TL

TL, I don't think you'd even have to mention the word Scientology. Just giving them the points to look for would innoculate them against Scn and a few other groups that they would be better off without. And maybe proof them up against peer pressure while we're at it.

 

[Zinjifar]

And, here's the problem. Deliberately *failing* to mention that 'oh year; this is Scientology' would be typical. Why wouldn't you mention that this is Scientology?

Zinj