Our 'experience' in Scn - Different for each of us!

[Kookaburra]

And, here's the problem. Deliberately *failing* to mention that 'oh year; this is Scientology' would be typical. Why wouldn't you mention that this is Scientology?

Zinj

I think you might run into some religious discrimination problems if you did. But you really wouldn't have to. All you'd need to do is alert them to the things to look out for.

 

[Zinjifar]

the reason to avoid mentioning Scientology is that Scientology has a Bad Reputation. This is not discrimination. Scientology has a bad reputation because it *deserves* it.

Zinj

 

[Tiger Lily]

TL, I don't think you'd even have to mention the word Scientology. Just giving them the points to look for would innoculate them against Scn and a few other groups that they would be better off without. And maybe proof them up against peer pressure while we're at it.

That is a great point!!!! Didn't ever put it in that perspective before, but the mechanisms used are very similar. There would definitely be a place for a program like that. hmmmm . . . heck that kind of education would help kids learn to spot politicians using those kind of control mechanisms. . . and to understand advertising. . . . it could actually be pretty far-reaching.

TL

 

[Tiger Lily]

And, here's the problem. Deliberately *failing* to mention that 'oh year; this is Scientology' would be typical. Why wouldn't you mention that this is Scientology?

Zinj

Legal ramifications -- religious freedom -- I'm very familiar with school districts. They don't have the time, money or inclination to have to deal with lawsuits.

Plus, there are other cults out there besides Scientology. . . a broad understanding of mind control would help people to evaluate everything they come across.

-TL

 

[Voltaire's Child]

the reason to avoid mentioning Scientology is that Scientology has a Bad Reputation. This is not discrimination. Scientology has a bad reputation because it *deserves* it.

Zinj

That doesn't mean that individuals want to be slammed for it, though. There are a number of groups at which I look askance but if I meet an adherent or congregant, I'm nice to the person. However, not everyone else is.

So when I was in CofS, I didn't mention it too often to people.

And so one might want to soft pedal the mention of Scn when speaking to and about adherents because they may feel that one is giving them a bad time even if they're not. They do have a right to believe what they want to and to be treated with respect but on the other hand, others have the right to freedom of speech. A way to reach a happy medium is to be tactful but still get the point across. Can always ramp it up later.

 

[Zinjifar]

I would consider any effort to rehabilitate the word 'Scientology' to be counterproductive. It took long enough to get it through to people that, no, it's *not* 'Christian Science'

Zinj

 

[Mark A. Baker]

There can be and is an inclination by some, to label all of our experiences in Scn as the ‘same’ and put everyone in the same box.

...

- In ’86 did I believe that LRH was infallible and that he left intentionally as promoted?.....No I didn’t, not at all.

...

- Did I think that I should be in agreement with people in very senior positions?.....Prior to ’82, yes at times, but not after ’82.

...

- As ED did I forward the crap that SO mgt terminals put on me, to my staff?.....No I didn’t, I protected them from it, just like my seniors protected me from it in the very early ‘80’s.

- Did I ever trust DM?.....No, never.

- Did I believe the PR lines forwarded by mgt at events?.....Not since ’82, but nor did I disbelieve them. I didn’t know what to believe, ‘cause I wasn’t in a position to have the true data. From around '95 onwards, I pretty well disbelieved anything and everything they said.

...

- Did I compromise what I believed in to ‘fit in’ or to make the ride easier?.....No I didn’t. When I was put into a position where I was being 'forced' to (in '97/'98), I left. Prior to that, although it was difficult, I didn’t have to compromise.

- Did I cling to a false hope, and was I in denial about the real scene with the CofS?.....Yes, for a period of time I did and I was, despite the fact that the real scene was staring me in the face. I didn’t or wouldn’t confront it.

- Do I consider the benefits of my time in Scn outweigh the negatives? .....Yes, in abundance.

- Am I thankful for my time in Scn?.....Yes, absolutely.

- Would I ever “go there” again?.....Absolutely not.

Thanks for the post, Carmel. I found it very interesting. I hope it was in some way cathartic for you. It leads me wondering a bit, however.

It seems, based on some of your answers, that your attitude altered with time. I'd like to pose a couple of questions, if you don't mind. I'm curious, but feel free to disregard them if you wish, or if thinking about them makes you uncomfortable.

A. You indicated that your acceptance of PR lies by management and agreement with senior execs changed in '82, yet you remained "in". Why did your views change? Why did you choose to stay?

B. By '86, you clearly considered LRH fallible and knew him to be dead. You also indicate you never trusted DM. What was your purpose in remaining a part of the group after that?

C. Was there an earlier time prior to your actual departure that you feel you could have left scientology and felt good about both your experience within scientology as well as your decision to leave? In other words, would leaving earlier have likely proved wholly beneficial for you and not in any degree "traumatic"? If so when do you feel would have been the best time for you to have left?


Mark A. Baker

 

[Carmel]

Thanks for the post, Carmel. I found it very interesting. I hope it was in some way cathartic for you. It leads me wondering a bit, however.

It seems, based on some of your answers, that your attitude altered with time. I'd like to pose a couple of questions, if you don't mind. I'm curious, but feel free to disregard them if you wish, or if thinking about them makes you uncomfortable.

I can see how what I have stated may seem contradictory, but I did post a "story" of sorts, and other stuff around here, that would at least give it a bit more 'sense'. I'll try to answer your questions here though, in a nutshell.

A. You indicated that your acceptance of PR lies by management and agreement with senior execs changed in '82, yet you remained "in". Why did your views change? Why did you choose to stay?

My views changed because a) I was out of the TTC, on post, now seeing and dealing with Int Mgt on telex line and b) I was no longer 'protected' from the crap, and was copping stuff myself when querying up lines about various "happenings" in the org.

I chose to stay, because I 'thought' (or 'hoped') that the turmoil would settle and things would come right, now that the likes of Mayo, Franks and Gleeson were gone, and that they would no longer have an influence. I had my own gripes with Mayo on tech lines, I didn't like or agree with some of the stuff he sent down, and HCOB's that were being changed. Two of my good friends told me about behaviour of Gleeson and Franks when they were at Flag for OEC/FEBC training (frightening stuff at the time). In addition to this, after being comm-eved for mutiny and conspiracy, and having my SP declare written up, a telex came down from Ray Mitoff (Snr C/S Int at the time), canning the declare. I also received a full on commendation from him in certificate form, commending me for KSW. I incorrectly took this to mean that "the good guys" were now at the reins.

Things still didn't seem to be coming right though, and I wasn't sure. After a CMO Mission and a year of what I considered "turmoil" (from mid '82 to mid'83), there was an LRHED that came down, that was full of outpoints. (I think it was called Clear to Eternity, but I'm not sure). At that point I thought that LRH had been given false data by mgt about what really got the stats up. I thought that becuase he was off mgt lines he had left himself open to being duped, and was.

I got 'in' in the beginning of '80 - in my world, I had had a ride to heaven in less than a year and a half. I wasn't going to throw it away -to me it was a KSW point. I owed it to myself and to others to stay and help "fix" it. Stupid, I know.

B. By '86, you clearly considered LRH fallible and knew him to be dead. You also indicate you never trusted DM. What was your purpose in remaining a part of the group after that?

LRH's fallibility, had nothing to do with the workability of the tech IMO. I had listened to hundreds of his lectures, and he showed on more than one occasion that he wasn't infallible. I had major arguments with my hubby over LRH's death. Tim thought that LRH would have had to have left intentionally or it would make all the workability of the tech and the OT levels a load of BS. I didn't, and argued to him, that LRH broke his back while researching OT3...God knows what he may have been researching or hitting up against when he dropped the body. I also argued that an auditor with missed witholds, can still do a damn fine job of pulling witholds - LRH's case had nothing to do with what he was capable of while wearing the hat he wore.

While I had issues with LRH in regard to his personality, and while I didn't believe he was infallible, I loved him and respected him, and absolutely thought that I was indebted to him for what I thought he had given me and others.

LRH died around the time when HCOB's and tech were being changed every five minutes, it seemed. Those of us on tech lines were so confused about who was doing what, and we were hoping that LRH would step in and deal with it. Instead, he left and we were told that he left on purpose (which he clearly wouldn't have, if he had any control over the matter). I was devastated at the time, because my hopes all seemed to get shattered, in one foul swoop!

Because DM delivered that "message", I didn't trust him, but nor did I distrust him at the point - I was confused and didn't know what to think at the time. I wanted the inside scoop, but we were obviously being "PR'd. Then the Broekers were declared, but it was Pat Broeker who gave much of the info re LRH's instructions for after he was gone. I was waiting for Mgt (DM) to fill the vacuum, and he didn't. I wrote to DM about LRH's death, the timing of it, the circumstances with the Broekers, and queried whether LRH left a hat write up or not. I listed all the out-points I could think of regarding LRH's death, and gave source refs regarding "truth indicates", and suggested that at least the staff and crew needed the data. I did it in a very respectful manner, no make wrong, no HE&R, and I included references that backed up my request for data being given. I got slammed for it, but I don't know who by. I was physically routed off post and put on the decks at CLO.

After that I didn't know whether it was DM who slammed me or not. I didn't know if my write up even got to him, because I didn't get a reply. I didn't like the way he was conducting matters, but I put some of that down to him being ignorant of the tech and in over his head. My level of trust for DM certainly diminished after that, to the point where I started to distrust him. I then started noticing more and more outpoints in his speeches at events. I has disagreements with what those Int Mgt terminals used to say, and I thought that some of them weren't very bright, considering that they were holding such positions.

I was hoping that I was wrong about DM and that he would either 'cognite' about his 'wrong direction' or get replaced. I certainly DIDN'T have it as an option to 'leave' because things weren't right. I thought that I had to help make things right, as we all did, per "KSW". Why would I give up on something that I thought had saved my life?

When I went back on staff in the early 90's, I had another shift of viewpoint. I thought DM was destructive, and I didn't trust him at all. I prayed for a mutiny, or a takeover. I left staff as soon as my contract was finished, and worked out other ways that I could 'contribute', and wouldn't be subjected to the BS within orgs. That lasted for a few years until, even as a public, I was being subjected to more crap.

When it was apparent to me that ...

- DM had a different agenda than what he said

- the staff, crew and public seemed happy to hold RTC as senior to source

- they were happy to just 'buy' these changes in tech that violated the tech

- the tech/policy wouldn't protect me anymore

- mental compliance was now necessary to 'survive' in there

- and that there was no longer any hope

.......I left.

It seriously broke my heart. Yes, I was stupid up until that point. I was in denial big time. I couldn't and wouldn't and didn't give up my hope of something that I thought just NEEDED to be. My loss with this (in '97/'98) and the feeling of betrayal, was worse than any 2D loss or anything I had ever encountered or could have imagined. I was very sad and lonely for a very long time after that, and pegged in a horrible 'place' till I got on the net and here on ESMB.

C. Was there an earlier time prior to your actual departure that you feel you could have left scientology and felt good about both your experience within scientology as well as your decision to leave? In other words, would leaving earlier have likely proved wholly beneficial for you and not in any degree "traumatic"? If so when do you feel would have been the best time for you to have left?

I don't think so. Until I knew what I knew, and until I had given it my best shot, I would have felt guilt ridden if I left any earlier. While there was a 'chance' (or I thought that there was), I had to keep truckin', or at least I 'thought' I did. I also had my kids and their future to consider - even though I had all sorts of fucked up concepts and beliefs on this, at the time, I absolutely thought that I 'owed' Scn to my kids. I also thought that I had a duty because of what I was given, and besides that, I wasn't just going to let go of something that I had thought had given me 'life'.

In saying that though, if I KNEW about what went on in the '60's on the ship, in '82 with the 'takeover' and about DM.........then I would have left the CofS a lot earlier. As it was, I left the CofS when I finally faced the facts about where it was at, because I was directly subjected to it and I could no longer deny it. I didn't 'leave' Scientology at that point though - I was still holding onto false hopes on that score, and did so for another 10 years or so......hiding, hoping and waiting.

What I did was so bizarre when I look back at it all now. The 'world' I was in didn't align with the real world at all, but for some stupid reason I wouldn't allow it to.

 

[Nicki]

I was hoping that I was wrong about DM and that he would either 'cognite' about his 'wrong direction' or get replaced. I certainly DIDN'T have it as an option to 'leave' because things weren't right. I thought that I had to help make things right, as we all did, per "KSW". Why would I give up on something that I thought had saved my life?



When it was apparent to me that ...

- DM had a different agenda than what he said
It seriously broke my heart. Yes, I was stupid up until that point. I was in denial big time. I couldn't and wouldn't and didn't give up my hope of something that I thought just NEEDED to be.
While there was a 'chance' (or I thought that there was), I had to keep truckin', or at least I 'thought' I did. I also had my kids and their future to consider - even though I had all sorts of fucked up concepts and beliefs on this, at the time, I absolutely thought that I 'owed' Scn to my kids. I also thought that I had a duty because of what I was given, and besides that, I wasn't just going to let go of something that I had thought had given me 'life'.

In saying that though, if I KNEW about what went on in the '60's on the ship, in '82 with the 'takeover' and about DM.........then I would have left the CofS a lot earlier. As it was, I left the CofS when I finally faced the facts about where it was at, because I was directly subjected to it and I could no longer deny it. I didn't 'leave' Scientology at that point though - I was still holding onto false hopes on that score, and did so for another 10 years or so......hiding, hoping and waiting.
QUOTE]



Thanks so much for writing this post Carmel...it is so similar to where I have been at... Too much hope, and not wanting to really believe that DM was so destructive, yet...I could see and feel the changes happening all around me. We (Scientologists...)became so "rote" and thinking alike about so many things. Leaving the church now, I haven't felt so free in many years. My thoughts and free to look and roam ....
It is sad though...I think of my friends, still in (who don't know I am not yet)..and they are very well indoctrinated in their thinking about certain things.
I've been away for a while and it was like, an open door to my own thoughts again.
I appreciate what you've written and can really relate to it.
I didn't realize that you had been so close to LRH and DM.
When that whole thing went down after LRH died...I had many friends leave...and encourage me to do so because of what DM was doing...I would not allow myself to believe it...and since I still wanted to do Scientology, I didn't think there was anywhere else to go...because I "knew" that everyone that left was expelled, declared, or a squirrel.
Also, my last years of involvement I was pretty high profile internationally so my "dedication" was intense...which created a type of blindness to certain things...things that I disaprove of strongly now.
Things look so different now, and I've been dealing with information in a much different way currently.
Wild as this message board can be...it has been very informative!
Nicki

 

[Good twin]

NO.

None of you were stupid. You were trying to be responsible. You were trying to exchange for the good you thought you got from your own Scientology experience. You were being honest and ethical. There is no way you could have known the magnitude of the smoke and mirrors. No way.

Maybe it would have been better to get out earlier, but those of us who stayed believed that we would be able to help more people. We truly believed that sharing our experience would have value for others. And sometimes it did..... just not enough and not without a huge and sometimes deadly price.

Carmel, our experiences aren't the same and we will change as individuals. There is no cookie cutter mindset for Exes. But, we do understand each other as those who are in and those who have never been in never could.

 

[Carmel]

Thanks so much for writing this post Carmel...it is so similar to where I have been at... Too much hope, and not wanting to really believe that DM was so destructive, yet...I could see and feel the changes happening all around me. We (Scientologists...)became so "rote" and thinking alike about so many things. Leaving the church now, I haven't felt so free in many years. My thoughts and free to look and roam ....
It is sad though...I think of my friends, still in (who don't know I am not yet)..and they are very well indoctrinated in their thinking about certain things.
I've been away for a while and it was like, an open door to my own thoughts again.
I appreciate what you've written and can really relate to it.
I didn't realize that you had been so close to LRH and DM.
When that whole thing went down after LRH died...I had many friends leave...and encourage me to do so because of what DM was doing...I would not allow myself to believe it...and since I still wanted to do Scientology, I didn't think there was anywhere else to go...because I "knew" that everyone that left was expelled, declared, or a squirrel.
Also, my last years of involvement I was pretty high profile internationally so my "dedication" was intense...which created a type of blindness to certain things...things that I disaprove of strongly now.
Things look so different now, and I've been dealing with information in a much different way currently.
Wild as this message board can be...it has been very informative!
Nicki

Your welcome Nicki.

Hey, writing this crap up helps me too. Looking at where one went wrong and one's 'own' failings in the scheme of things (despite what we may have been subjected to), is a vital part in regard to letting it all go and putting it behind ya, IMO.

I don't know whether I understand you correctly or not here, but I wasn't close to LRH or DM. I didn't ever meet them, but then nor have I met many people on this board who I feel very close to. DM never gave much of 'himself', so he was somebody I never felt close to and/or someone who I understood. I'm in Aussie - we were out of the loop on much here, but by the same token, that gave us an easier ride, IMO.

Yes , as wild as this board can be, it is very informative. The more truth ya get, the more the crap in ya world that disappears. I'm glad you're here with us lot, availing yourself of the goodies in store.

Love,
Carmel

 

[Carmel]

NO.

None of you were stupid. You were trying to be responsible. You were trying to exchange for the good you thought you got from your own Scientology experience. You were being honest and ethical. There is no way you could have known the magnitude of the smoke and mirrors. No way.

Maybe it would have been better to get out earlier, but those of us who stayed believed that we would be able to help more people. We truly believed that sharing our experience would have value for others. And sometimes it did..... just not enough and not without a huge and sometimes deadly price.

I agree with this perspective GT, but there is more than just the one perspective to all this, and each has validity IMO. I think that there's value in looking at all the various perspectives or looking at things from all the different lights.

Carmel, our experiences aren't the same and we will change as individuals. There is no cookie cutter mindset for Exes. But, we do understand each other as those who are in and those who have never been in never could.

I totally agree. I don't see how anyone who wasn't 'in' and 'dedicated' to whatever their individual cause may have been, could understand us like we understand eachother (and I'm so thankful for that understanding). I do believe however, that the very odd one has come pretty close.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I can see how what I have stated may seem contradictory, but I did post a "story" of sorts, and other stuff around here, that would at least give it a bit more 'sense'. I'll try to answer your questions here though, in a nutshell.

First off, THANKS! This was a GREAT POST!

Not only did you answer my questions. I feel I genuinely understand what you went through. I suspect it really "indicated" to a lot of others on the board, too.

When it was apparent to me that ...

- DM had a different agenda than what he said

- the staff, crew and public seemed happy to hold RTC as senior to source

- they were happy to just 'buy' these changes in tech that violated the tech

- the tech/policy wouldn't protect me anymore

- mental compliance was now necessary to 'survive' in there

- and that there was no longer any hope

.......I left.

Perfect summary, perfect sense.

It seriously broke my heart. Yes, I was stupid up until that point. I was in denial big time. I couldn't and wouldn't and didn't give up my hope of something that I thought just NEEDED to be. My loss with this (in '97/'98) and the feeling of betrayal, was worse than any 2D loss or anything I had ever encountered or could have imagined. I was very sad and lonely for a very long time after that, and pegged in a horrible 'place' till I got on the net and here on ESMB.

The loss of hope was a huge source of grief for alot of us.

But (please pardon my undue familiarity) you know who loves you baby!

I don't think so. ...

Yeah, excuse the eval, but it sounds like you made the right decision for the right reasons and at the right time.


Mark A. Baker

 

[RogerB]

I Concur

Carmel,

I concur with Nicki, Good Twin and Mark.

What you have written on this thread exemplifies honesty and integrity in the pursuit of purpose and the acting in the best interests of honorable principles. The tragedy is that you, I, we all were lied to and were not easily able to discern those lies. We had found the tech worked, and wanted to apply it and did what the tech said to do to try and get it applied.

That those good and honorable intentions were betrayed by others should not cause us to feel we failed, but I know there is often that sense of failure.

My conclusion after many years of chewing on it is that loss is often associated with and confused as being failure, and hence the feelings that some fault or lack might be personally ours.

On that score, I came to the conclusion that I did my best based on the data I had available. In reading your posts here, I am of the view you did the same; and you are to be honored and applauded for it.

Unfortunately, trying to get the job done in the church after the beginnings of the insanities were introduced with the first SO Missions and their "total ethics power" (but actual misuse of such) at end of 1967 and the beginning of 1968, has been like pissing into a gale and getting only a wet face. The people vested with power were and are unfit for it, and it is only being used criminally.

Hence the good folks have lost out there. But the good folks should not feel they have really lost, for many are here, and they are still upholding the principles and truths they believe in. And they will be fulfilled.

Roger

 

[Tiger Lily]

This is really a great thread. I'm finding it to be really helpful, though I can't find words to say why. . . but it's making me feel better about things, for whatever reason. I loved many of the Scientologists I met while in, but the exes I've "met" have all those qualities I loved (spiritual drive, willingness to help, care for others) plus a depth of spirit, and individuality I never saw in the COfS.

Thanks Carmel and everyone for opening up and sharing your thoughts!

TL

 

[Kookaburra]

One thing I find very interesting is that true friendships form very easily between ex scientologists, as we have common goals and common experience, the things that drew us into Scn in the first place, and we can talk freely about it.

Yet while in Scn, particularly after '82 it was very difficult to form those friendships because of the control on free communication - it just didn't happen because you could not discuss how you really felt or thought.

 

[Carmel]

<snip>
And they will be fulfilled.

Roger

I now believe that they will be too.

It's taken a while to believe so, but my previous goals and purposes weren't about Scn, they were about true freedoms and true spirituality, which aren't and haven't been on the agenda of the CofS.

 

[Nicki]

NO.

None of you were stupid. You were trying to be responsible. You were trying to exchange for the good you thought you got from your own Scientology experience. You were being honest and ethical. There is no way you could have known the magnitude of the smoke and mirrors. No way.

Maybe it would have been better to get out earlier, but those of us who stayed believed that we would be able to help more people. We truly believed that sharing our experience would have value for others. And sometimes it did..... just not enough and not without a huge and sometimes deadly price.

Carmel, our experiences aren't the same and we will change as individuals. There is no cookie cutter mindset for Exes. But, we do understand each other as those who are in and those who have never been in never could.

So True...and still...I really do not regret any of the time I was in....I know that that can not be said by everyone. I really have had some very good experiences and many things in my life have been enhanced becase of my involvement. It is too bad that for so many people their were real horrors. I was lucky...I had a few intersting "incidents", but came out relatively "unscathed".
It is true, the experience was different for all of us.
Nic

 

[Nicki]

NO.

None of you were stupid. You were trying to be responsible. You were trying to exchange for the good you thought you got from your own Scientology experience. You were being honest and ethical. There is no way you could have known the magnitude of the smoke and mirrors. No way.

Maybe it would have been better to get out earlier, but those of us who stayed believed that we would be able to help more people. We truly believed that sharing our experience would have value for others. And sometimes it did..... just not enough and not without a huge and sometimes deadly price.

Carmel, our experiences aren't the same and we will change as individuals. There is no cookie cutter mindset for Exes. But, we do understand each other as those who are in and those who have never been in never could.

Your welcome Nicki.

Hey, writing this crap up helps me too. Looking at where one went wrong and one's 'own' failings in the scheme of things (despite what we may have been subjected to), is a vital part in regard to letting it all go and putting it behind ya, IMO.

I don't know whether I understand you correctly or not here, but I wasn't close to LRH or DM. I didn't ever meet them, but then nor have I met many people on this board who I feel very close to. DM never gave much of 'himself', so he was somebody I never felt close to and/or someone who I understood. I'm in Aussie - we were out of the loop on much here, but by the same token, that gave us an easier ride, IMO.

Yes , as wild as this board can be, it is very informative. The more truth ya get, the more the crap in ya world that disappears. I'm glad you're here with us lot, availing yourself of the goodies in store.

Love,
Carmel

Thanks. I guess when I said "close" I assumed that you were on a chain of command that would have been "close" to DM, I guess....know what I mean?
I realize that you're in Aussieland.
Loved it there...I was on tour there in ...2001...I think (as a public)...wonder if we met.
Nicki

 

[Nicki]

NO.

None of you were stupid. You were trying to be responsible. You were trying to exchange for the good you thought you got from your own Scientology experience. You were being honest and ethical. There is no way you could have known the magnitude of the smoke and mirrors. No way.

Maybe it would have been better to get out earlier, but those of us who stayed believed that we would be able to help more people. We truly believed that sharing our experience would have value for others. And sometimes it did..... just not enough and not without a huge and sometimes deadly price.

Carmel, our experiences aren't the same and we will change as individuals. There is no cookie cutter mindset for Exes. But, we do understand each other as those who are in and those who have never been in never could.

Your welcome Nicki.

Hey, writing this crap up helps me too. Looking at where one went wrong and one's 'own' failings in the scheme of things (despite what we may have been subjected to), is a vital part in regard to letting it all go and putting it behind ya, IMO.

I don't know whether I understand you correctly or not here, but I wasn't close to LRH or DM. I didn't ever meet them, but then nor have I met many people on this board who I feel very close to. DM never gave much of 'himself', so he was somebody I never felt close to and/or someone who I understood. I'm in Aussie - we were out of the loop on much here, but by the same token, that gave us an easier ride, IMO.

Yes , as wild as this board can be, it is very informative. The more truth ya get, the more the crap in ya world that disappears. I'm glad you're here with us lot, availing yourself of the goodies in store.

Love,
Carmel

Carmel,

I concur with Nicki, Good Twin and Mark.

What you have written on this thread exemplifies honesty and integrity in the pursuit of purpose and the acting in the best interests of honorable principles. The tragedy is that you, I, we all were lied to and were not easily able to discern those lies. We had found the tech worked, and wanted to apply it and did what the tech said to do to try and get it applied.

That those good and honorable intentions were betrayed by others should not cause us to feel we failed, but I know there is often that sense of failure.

My conclusion after many years of chewing on it is that loss is often associated with and confused as being failure, and hence the feelings that some fault or lack might be personally ours.

On that score, I came to the conclusion that I did my best based on the data I had available. In reading your posts here, I am of the view you did the same; and you are to be honored and applauded for it.

Unfortunately, trying to get the job done in the church after the beginnings of the insanities were introduced with the first SO Missions and their "total ethics power" (but actual misuse of such) in the beginning of 1968, has been like pissing into a gale and getting only a wet face. The people vested with power were and are unfit for it, and it is only being used criminally.

Hence the good folks have lost out there. But the good folks should not feel they have really lost, for many are here, and they are still upholding the principles and truths they believe in. And they will be fulfilled.

Roger

AMEN BROTHER!